Sylvan Primordial banned
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Feb. 3, 2014, 12:53 a.m. by kriskurse
Aside from the Deathrite Shaman banning that now has 4 threads, Sylvan Primordial just got te axe in commander. Thoughts?
PasorofMuppets says... #3
Kind of sad because I just picked up a foil, but not terribly surprised.
February 3, 2014 12:57 a.m.
PasorofMuppets says... #5
It's not. But everyone and their mom made a thread about it getting banned in modern.
February 3, 2014 1:01 a.m.
The Doctor says... #7
I really don't see why Sylvan got banned, though. Unless you're playing Massive Multiplayer games, he's not that broken.
February 3, 2014 1:03 a.m.
Well that's extremely disappointing. Considering a friend of mine just traded in all of his standard stuff to play full time EDH with Karador, he's going to be extremely disappointed by this little piece of news. Can anyone provide a link with the announcement from Wizards?
February 3, 2014 1:05 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
@thePESSIMIST: Wizards has nothing to do with maintaining Commander.
Go to the commander website.
February 3, 2014 1:08 a.m.
what the hell is this shit? WotC is just like ''screw you dave, you cant do anything you like to do in magic.''
February 3, 2014 1:09 a.m.
thePESSIMIST Here is the official announcement regarding Sylvan Primordial 's banning in EDH remember that Wizards doesn't make the rules for EDH that is done by the peep at MtG Commander. The offical announcement regarding Deathrite Shaman and what not in Modern is Here
February 3, 2014 1:12 a.m.
Samuel_The_Seer says... #12
As a dedicated EDH player, I can understand where the Commander Website is coming from with Sylvan. It's the creature that's too good for it's own sake. Like Uncle Ben said, "With great power, comes great responsibility". Too many times I've seen an EDH game ruined when someone abuses Sylvan, here's a quick list:
Rite of Replication Clone Evil Twin Conjurer's Closet Cackling Counterpart Infinite Reflection Followed Footsteps Fated Infatuation Spitting Image Cloudshift
I've seen someone Oblivion Ring and Unsummon their Sylvan just so they could blow up the enchantment or cast him again.
The point is, whoever gets their sylvan out first and starts copying it, wins.There goes your Sol Ring and Gilded Lotus , goodbye Thran Dynamo , goodbye Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
I agree a player should have an answer for everything, but not when the everything is literally preventing answers.
February 3, 2014 9:19 a.m.
MaliciousMac says... #13
It shouldn't have been banned. I honestly think it's unjust. I do understand that there are ways to break it, but there a lot of breakable cards in EDH. And that shouldn't have been the one to be banned.
February 3, 2014 3:40 p.m.
I sensed this coming weeks, almost months, in advance. I've already made my changes to my decks. I feel that this was justified.
February 3, 2014 4:11 p.m.
smash10101 says... #16
It was actually (unofficially) leaked that primodial would be getting the ban hammer about a month ago. I'm glad they did it, he just ruins games in a way that makes no-one want to play.
I had hoped that they would be banning Deadeye Navigator as well. Primordial is bad, but deadeye is the engine that allows strategies that abused him (and others, like the less/not broken Terastodon and such) to flourish.
February 3, 2014 5:39 p.m.
thataddkid says... #17
Deadeye Navigator requires setup to use and doesn't make an impact the second it hits the board. Kicking Rite of Replication onto Deadeye Navigator does absolutely nothing- on Sylvan Primordial , it ramps you up 18 forests in a multiplayer game.
February 3, 2014 7:54 p.m.
Gitaxias86 says... #18
I had been saying in my circle for awhile that this card needed to go. Glad to see it gone. I honestly had hoped sepulchral would be included in the ban as well.
The argument for banning sylvan seemed to be that it's too easy to ramp into early game, and that it generally takes the fun out of the game. I could argue based on experiences in my gaming circle that both the green and black primordials are very, very capable of this. Obviously sylvan is the worst offender of its cycle, so I'm glad at the very least to see they snuffed one of them.
February 4, 2014 12:43 a.m.
thataddkid says... #19
Bouncing Sepulchral ten times though only makes so much of an impact. Sylvan always does something, and when it doesn't do anything anymore you've won the game.
February 4, 2014 6:29 a.m.
BANHAMMER
Timmy: "NO! Primordial! Come on, we need to play!"
Sylvan Primordial: "I can't Timmy... cough I've been banned..."
Timmy: Please! You'll make it! We need to find a compromise! Don't leave me!"
Sylvan Primordial: "I did bad things Timmy... Johnny and Spike seduced me... cough I hope you'll forgive me someday...
Timmy takes Sylvan Primordial out of it's sleeve and puts it into his Binder next to Griselbrand and Prothean Hulk
Timmy: "I... I love you Sylvan Primordial. I'll see you again someday..."
February 4, 2014 5:51 p.m.
Quite redonkadonks. Were the primordials not made specifically for EDH? Albeit Sylvan Primordial was easily the most abusable of them all, but this sucks. Green always gets the ban hammer. Personally, I think Deadeye Navigator should have been banned before Sylvan was. Though I'm glad he's not. I'd quit EDH if I lose my Navigators.
There are other cards in EDH that are way easier to abuse.
February 4, 2014 7:08 p.m.
thataddkid says... #22
codebread, the problem with banning DEN is that there are plethoras of blink effects and to go through banning all of them that can abuse Sylvan Primordial will lead to a ban list ravaging decks and still not solving problems. There are so many ways to abuse EtB effects that to ban anything other than the problem card would be silly.
February 4, 2014 7:43 p.m.
I see why its banned but you know what card really needs banned Prophet of Kruphix that card is way broken if you ask me Untap all creatures and lands you control during each other player's untap step. You may cast creature cards as though they had flash then combo that with the.Deadeye Navigator and Sylvan Primordial just which too Terastodon if your looking for the destroy and not the lands.
February 5, 2014 12:16 a.m.
why doesn't EDH have a restricted list that limits cards like Sylvan Primordial only mono color decks just saying. this is really a card interaction that can be stopped with no problem.
February 5, 2014 12:30 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
A lot of people keep saying Prophet of Kruphix is broken, but it really isn't. It doesn't untap mana rocks, and it doesn't really do anything unfair for a 5-drop 2/3.
Also, I don't like the idea of a "restricted" list. It adds unnecessary complications to the format, and you get to the slippery slope issue. What to you restrict? How do you know whether something is banworthy or restrictionworthy? How do you justify restricting something instead of banning it? There's so much more to think about and justify.
February 5, 2014 12:38 a.m.
smash10101 says... #26
There is a restricted list in a way Epochalyptik, it's called the banned as commander list. But I agree, no limiting to monocolor list. That would be way to complicated.
February 5, 2014 2:14 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #27
Prophet of Kruphix is less crazy then Deadeye Navigator . She has no built-in way to protect herself, her toughness isn't particularly high, basically any removal can deal with her. Being dual colored restricts the decks she can appear in even more than similar stuff like Seedborn Muse , who I think you could make a better argument for being broken (but she's not either, despite the 4 toughness).
February 5, 2014 8:53 a.m.
Prophet of Kruphix isn't broken. I played with it and against it and it never turned the game in anyone's favor like sylvy does. In a large multiplayer game, the player doesn't typically have spells to play on everyone's turn or they'll just empty their hand and they become vulnerable. She's a utility card that is sort of pillow forty. Don't attack me or I'll flash in a creature.
"Hey, cool creatures... Wrath of God ." - Other players.
She's a very vulnerable card and usually gets spot removed at that players end step so he can't untap lands and creatures. Sylvan Primordial affects the board immediately so who cares if he dies. He entered the battlefield, that's his purpose, that controller doesn't care if it dies. If he or she is playing black or white with that green they will probably get a second use out of it.
February 5, 2014 11 a.m.
Having a restricted list that limits cards to only mono-colored decks adds a whole new confusion to the game. Telling someone they can't play that card in a multicolored deck even though it has the correct color identity would just make people mad and can cause disinterest in the format. It just won't make sense.
Blind Obedience still causes confusion now and then. The color identity is white only yet there's a black symbol on it, but it is reminder text... UGH!
In all honesty a restricted list in a singleton format is bad news bears. If it should be restricted then it should just be banned outright or banned only as a commander.
February 5, 2014 11:30 a.m.
Oh, I'm going to miss Sylvan Primordial . But it was definitely busted. Deadeye Navigator is pretty darn busted too, IMO.
So, what is everybody replacing Sylvan with in their decks? Do you find yourselves swapping in a replacement primordial?
February 5, 2014 1:45 p.m.
thataddkid says... #31
I put in more ramp like Wood Elves , Solemn Simulacrum , and Pilgrim's Eye .
February 5, 2014 2:04 p.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #32
I'm going to be using Arbor Colossus for now in Mayael, Friend of Monsters EDH, I need the big reach body. Luminate Primordial hasn't got enough power for Mayael the Anima to bring him out herself.
February 5, 2014 2:07 p.m.
While I understand, I'm still annoyed about the Sylvan Primordial , yes it gives you two effects in one creature, but it has relatively high casting cost. Really going by their justification in banning the Primordial, the Consecrated Sphinx should be banned too. Now I need to figure out what I'm going to do with all of my Primordials.
February 5, 2014 2:41 p.m.
As far as I can see, the blinks that can compete with Deadeye Navigator would be Roon of the Hidden Realm or Conjurer's Closet . Granted, I've been playing Magic for only a year and a half, so my card knowledge is probably nowhere near as expansive as yours. However, neither Conjurer's Closet or Roon of the Hidden Realm can protect themselves and Roon's body is not as big as Deadeye's. If not these, other possible blinks (like I said, my library is small) that I can name would be things like Mistmeadow Witch , Momentary Blink , Otherworldly Journey , or Cloudshift . If my only option to replace Deadeye Navigator would be a small witch or instant/sorcery, I'd rather just not run a blink effect. That being, no blink effect, no abused primordial. Even with Sylvan Primordial out of the format, there are still other consistent ETB abilities to worry about, namely Terastodon , Acidic Slime , Thragtusk , or any of the (nongreen) titans. These may be less dangerous than Sylvan Primordial , but these are still threats that can easily wreck EDH games, and in most cases, Deadeye Navigator is the source. Even without strong ETB abilities to abuse, Navigator paired with any creature makes both bodies almost impossible to remove. I'm not saying that Sylvan Primordial shouldn't be banned, I'm saying that EDH has much bigger threats to check. But I'm just a guy who loves him some primordial, and I probably won't hear scrap from my casual EDH playgroup about it anyway.
February 5, 2014 6:58 p.m.
It seemed like it was beaned (I feel like saying "beaned" tonight instead of "banned" - just humor me) for the same reason that many cards are beaned: Everybody uses it.
If every deck that could produce green mana, or could cheat such a creature into play uses it, then it's obviously over-powered.
EDH is primarily meant as a social / casual / multi-player variant anyway, so just house-rules your way around it.
February 5, 2014 8:40 p.m.
@phc EDH is a format where you can easily play a seven drop very early. You can easily get around casting costs with Quicksilver Amulet and Elvish Piper . Not to mention the insane amount of Ramp you can do. You can play an eight drop or ten drop on turn 5 or earlier. A guy in my play group played It That Betrays on turn 4. CMC has little importance. If EDH was 60 cards then yeah, 7 cmc is pretty high.
Consecrated Sphinx is good, but not broken. There are decks dedicated to card draw and banning this just wouldn't make sense. You would end up banning most blue card draws, like Azami, Lady of Scrolls for example is way more powerful than the sphinx. Let's ban tribal wizards. You can't ban cards in EDH because you don't like playing against it unless your group decides on a house ban. The sphinx doesn't affect the field as much as Sylvan Primordial does. You can remove the sphinx before it starts drawing cards while the primordial just has to ETB. Terastodon is an annoying blink target, but he gives 3/3's and sometimes the controller will blow up their own lands for some elephants.
If there was a blinker that should be banned, I would pick Progenitor Mimic . Surprisingly this guy hasn't come up in this discussion from what I have seen. Why blink one Primordial when you can have a lot of him. I used Progenitor to abuse the Legend rule with Yosei, the Morning Star and locked my opponent out of the game in a 1v1 match. Not to mention other Mimic targets like Thragtusk and maybe even Consuming Aberration . The Mimic is pretty much game ending if you use him right. I consider Progenitor Mimic to be a broken card.
February 6, 2014 10:54 a.m.
codebread, this was not about power level. This was about fun. Sylvan Primordial just sucks the fun out of the game and can easily remove one player completely out of the game, without intending to.
EDH RC doesn't care about overall power-level. end of story, they care about the fun for the whole group. If there was less spike play in EDH, the banlist would be smaller, but I honestly believe sp would still be on it.
This is because it isn't a 'may' ability, you must destroy something with him and then ramp up.
February 6, 2014 11:03 a.m.
nobu_the_bard says... #40
Consecrated Sphinx has more things keeping it in check now. Spirit of the Labyrinth is probably going to start showing up soon, Nekusar, the Mindrazer being popular is hurting the Sphinx, etc. It's still great but I think it's getting easier to deal with it. And at my local meta people have been packing more instant-speed creature removal because of it (and Deadeye Navigator ).
Progenitor Mimic is too slow to be absurd, it only happens once during your upkeep. Most of the other blinkers we were discussing can be abused via untap or infinite mana shenanigans. Deadeye Navigator only costs 1U to activate his ability, so if you actually paid his cost, you can already activate him probably 3 times per turn at a minimum.
I had seen Sylvan Primordial nearly remove a player from the game because it had come out on turn 3 or so via Elvish Piper and was in a position to destroy his lands over the next few turns faster than he could draw into them with his slower deck. (He had no other permanents that hadn't been destroyed that were valid targets.) The other players at the table actually agreed to have the Primordial "miss" him so he could stay in the game (with the player who played the Sylvan being the one to suggest this).
February 6, 2014 11:36 a.m.
I've never seen a case where someone knocks off another person with Sylvan Primordial unintentionally. I've always done it intentionally, at least. I have no problems with the Primordial not using "may," but that's just me. I get why Sylvan Primordial is banned, like I said. I just think there are cards that can make EDH way worse than it.
Also, I don't know what the RP in EDH RP means.
February 6, 2014 6:39 p.m.
It was the only way i could get rid of Winter Orb! It's only OP in mass multiplayer games.
February 6, 2014 6:55 p.m.
The only way katarhero? What about Acidic Slime or Krosan Grip . Or run Nevinyrral's Disk .
Also, most commander games are multiplayer, so SP's ability is at it's best in the format.
February 6, 2014 7:02 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #44
I am still running it in my mono green. I am taking it out of my WUG because it is a little too much with the Navigator.
February 6, 2014 7:02 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #45
I just feel that there are so many cards on the same level as this one. I feel it is setting the stage for a rather large ban list to come.
February 6, 2014 7:07 p.m.
Enlightened_Jedi says... #46
I run Melek, Izzet Paragon as my commander. So this is good news for me.
February 7, 2014 2:10 p.m.
If the Sylvan Primordial only gave you forests as it's ETB effect would it be worth playing? How about the reverse, if it only destroyed non-creature permanents as it's ETB effect?
gufymike says... #2
Expected.
February 3, 2014 12:55 a.m.