Muddle the Mixture is generally good in decks that are more voltron than this deck, mainly because they run Lightning Greaves . It's usually run for it's transmute, and this deck has no real targets for the transmute.

Muddle the Mixture can either be a slightly worse Counterspell , a draw engine(Sylvan Library ), mana ramp(Grim Monolith or Lotus Cobra ) or just grab Demonic Tutor if you really need a certain card. Granted it is a little slow, but in my opinion the flexibility makes up for it.

It costs 5 to do any of that when it should only cost 2, that's the point. If he doesn't have something he will consistently want with the transmute, it is an inferior card to his other options. He'd run Grim Tutor main board if he wanted that, in all honesty.

Your comparing apples to oranges and completely missing the point. It's only good because of its flexibility, and yes it's five mana to transmute it and cast the spell. I said it is a little slow but the options it opens up to you more than make up for it.

@nbarry223: Mindbreak Trap isn't very good because the alternate cost is almost never relevant. Its 4 CMC is way too high to make it a viable counterspell outside of the alternate casting cost, though.

Temporal Mastery isn't good in this deck, and neither is Riftsweeper . They're pretty limited in application, and I would sooner run Temporal Manipulation than Temporal Mastery in this deck. They're just limited in nature.

@HammafistRoob: Muddle the Mixture is still kind of awkward in some respects. While it remains as effective as Counterspell in protecting my combo late-game, it doesn't deal with creature-based combo threats from other decks, nor does it deal with artifact- and enchantment-based locks, both of which are relevant at the competitive level.

@nbarry223: Deathrite Shaman is actually more relevant as a ramp dork than as graveyard hate. The ability to disable certain graveyard-based interactions is pretty strong, but the prevalence of fetches in the competitive meta means Deathrite Shaman is almost always relevant as another Birds of Paradise .

Chromatic Lantern and Glen Elendra Archmage are both up for cuts (this was discussed earlier, but I don't expect anyone to have read the entire discussion).

Worldly Tutor isn't a definite in my opinion. Although my combos are creature-based, I rarely want to tutor the pieces one-by-one. Worldly Tutor would be better spent on a Snapcaster Mage or Azusa, Lost but Seeking . But I'm not sure it's worthwhile.

Garruk Wildspeaker is kind of slow, and it doesn't generate enough mana to justify the 4 CMC cost in my opinion. Usually, my ramp is powerful enough to enable a turn three Damia. Garruk Wildspeaker , while good in some EDH decks, fits in an awkward spot on my mana curve.

Kira, Great Glass-Spinner used to be in the deck, but I cut it. The ability is very good, but I don't know if it's as relevant. Usually, counterspells are the biggest threats, and Kira, Great Glass-Spinner does nothing to stop those. I'm not discounting the relevance of removal spells, but they aren't always as prevalent.

Erayo, Soratami Ascendant is also decent, but not an auto-include. It probably won't even flip unless there's a counter war and someone continues playing spells. Without the guarantee, I don't know if I can include it.

@ both of you: Muddle the Mixture is a good card, but it trades overall power for more flexibility. I don't know if the trade-off is worth the benefits, though.

I wasn't suggesting you include the temporal mastery combo, I've been trying to tell you to take out Time Stretch lol.

How about Search for Tomorrow ? It's either a cheaper ramp that you have to wait 2 turns for, or a ramp that costs one more than it should. Not a terrible top deck late game either, since you can basically cycle it with damia out for 1.

Renegade Doppelganger would enable another infinite mana combo with Palinchron , and it's a decent utility card too.

Wait, nevermind, that doesn't go infinite because you'd have to recast him too... It's still a semi-decent utility card, but now I'm not sure if it's worth it anymore (mainly because you don't run too many creatures worthy of copying, Palinchron won't even produce mana haha)...

I'll keep thinking.

Imp's Mischief possibly? At worst it is a counter to anything that targets (including a counterspell), but it can also make their removal or whatever backfire.

My last idea would be one of my personal favorites, I almost always include one in any blue deck...

Gitaxian Probe is a really good deck thinner, plus it can let you know if it is safe to play a combo or not for either 2 life or a blue mana. Plus it cantrips itself, what more can you ask for?

@nbarry223: Search for Tomorrow was tested briefly, but I found it unnecessary. If you draw into it past turn three, it's kind of dead. You don't really want to hardcast it, but the game probably won't last long enough to get the suspend cast.

Imp's Mischief is probably not viable. It's less useful than an actual counterspell, and I already have Misdirection .

I'm not sure about Gitaxian Probe primarily because this deck is geared toward multiplayer, where Gitaxian Probe 's power is drastically reduced. It may be worth testing, but I remain skeptical.

Well, at worse it's "pay two life check a blue player for counterspells," plus your deck size is essentially 99 with it.

It would probably be worth putting in for one of the cards you want to cut just to test how often it helps you, honestly.

I would actually agree with nbarry223 on this one. I have played Gitaxian Probe fairly extensively in edh and it has never let me down. The two life really doesn't affect in any way, as you will combo out before damage based strategies can hurt you. Thus, the only real cost is the occasional mulligan decision, as it virtually represents a random card from your library. I believe that complete information on an opponent's hand is much more valuable than complete information on a single card in your hand. Also, it should be noted that it has some small synergy with top of library tutors, particularly Imperial Seal .

Thanks. If he wanted to just thin the deck more, there's always Street Wraith too, although it doesn't add any value for its slot. If however, you really wanted to make the Chromatic Lantern and Glen Elendra Archmage cuts (I stil feel that Time Stretch belongs in this list too), it'd be a viable replacement card.

I still feel that Flusterstorm would be another viable card also, mainly because it can't be countered by "free counters" in a counter war (plus it's almost always a hard counter).

I was going to suggest Culling the Weak , but I can tell from his reaction to Harrow that he isn't a huge fan of "additional cost" cards.

It's really hard to come up with a card you like, thanks for the challenge, haha.

It's not that I'm not a fan of additional costs. It's that the additional cost needs to be worthwhile. Sacrificing a land is a very dangerous cost, and it's not worth it in the early turns. Culling the Weak seems unnecessary given that I have Dark Ritual already (and only really for casting Damia). I do want to include Diabolic Intent , though.

Hey i've been checking on this deck since he was less than a 100 score i really like the debatting around cards you set there !Also thanks a lot for List of EDH Staples and Power Cards i'm there looking for staples very often and it's been really helpfull

Have you got any thoughts about the next commanders comming in november? it is said that bant one would be great...

When this reach 200 , i'll start a (budget) commander with Damia :) but i mostly play 1v1 and i don't know if this will hold on against great 1v1 builds with cheaper cards

@switch

If you plan to make a budget deck, you are better off choosing a general where the lack of expensive lands and ramp doesn't hit too hard, something like Zur the Enchanter . I made a budget zur build that was made for multiplayer, so it holds its own in 1v1 quite well (since it was made to deal with multiple answers at once).

The thing that makes this deck powerful is its manabase and free counters to allow it to have an answer when it needs one. Without those, it probably won't be very competitive in a 1v1 environment against non-budget decks. My budget zur is below if you are interested in looking for some ideas.

Excuse me Zur, would you like some help?

@switch Well, BUG is fairly budget-friendly, but the cost will depend largely on what route you decide to take.

Combo decks like expensive mana bases to support them. Goodstuff can get by on (somewhat) less effective lands. Same with fast vs. slow tempo. I can help you regardless.

I'm not overly excited about the new Commander decks, but I am very interested to see the new cards. Hopefully, some of them are good enough to include.

But this will lack its forceful answers which are the only thing that keeps it alive in 1v1 vs. a well built deck. If you are taking the budget approach, the only viable routes are aggro or aggro voltron. You have to be able to out-race a good deck in 1v1 if you are using a budget one, because they will be able to out-control you 100% of the time. You basically throw as many in your face threats at them, as fast as you can, and hope something gets through.

Krenko combo can be pretty damn effective in EDH nbarry223. (Krenko's Commandos for reference.) However I pretty much agree that voltron is probably the best way to go.

I kind of automatically assume that people playing a budget version of this deck aren't playing it in hypercompetitive metas.

Well combining any equipment that gives first strike with Damia, Sage of Stone would be pretty good. Bladed Pinions for example.

Damia, Sage of Stone isn't really a good equipment-based general, and it's a bad idea to swing with your utility creatures.

Honestly, for a budget deck, you are best off running something that either has hexproof/shroud (vitual card advantage making their removal useless) or is a very powerful Voltron commander. Anything other than that, and you are basically going to lose against any finely tuned deck. You can build a budget deck that can hold its own against a really good deck, but you have to know how to do it.

My top picks for a budget general would probably be:

Kodama of the North Tree , Lazav, Dimir Mastermind , Sigarda, Host of Herons , Thrun, the Last Troll , Uril, the Miststalker , Zur the Enchanter , Akroma, Angel of Fury , or if you are into suicide black, Cao Ren, Wei Commander with a bunch of tutors and Hatred

You basically want something with as much evasion as possible, in whatever color(s) you feel comfortable playing. Then just build a deck around your general, and throw in a couple back up plans.

How about Perplex ? The Transmute is nice and the card itself has potential.