Shifting Modern Meta
Modern forum
Posted on Nov. 5, 2014, 7:34 p.m. by aeonstoremyliver
So I had this great idea when I saw Monestary Swiftpear and Treasure Cruise, "Hey, so 
/
/x Delver just became good again!" And I made a decklist. Since good cards exist in this vacuum of a format, other folks had the same idea and have been in the Top 8 of various large, competitive events. I can't take credit, but am glad I saw what other good players did.
In any case, //x Delver/Pyromancer is a new contender of top tier decks in the format (see TCGPlayer recent events for source and decklists). Oh, Scapeshift also won an event, Jeskai Control, Blue Moon and Mono Tron placed Top 8 as well.
Personally, I like the shift in the meta, as it allows for a varied, healthy one. What are your thoughts on the matter? What new sideboard strategies will you implement? What does this do to the other popular decks in the meta such as Affinity, Pod, Twin, 8 Rack, RDW/Burn, Gruul Tron, etc.? And does Naya Big Zoo even have a chance?
Affinity is still very strong.
Pod got waay worse. It used to have a very solid burn/ delver matchup but the matchup isn't in their favor anymore with treasure cruise
Burn got a lot stronger
GR Tron is fine now, it might be a little bit better positioned than it was before, I'm not too sure.
Twin got a little bit better with dig through time but no one is really playing it over delver atm.
Big zoo wasn't great before treasure cruise came out and now it's much, much worse.
November 5, 2014 7:55 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #4
I think lttle zoo feat 4 goyf, 4 scooze is pretty well positioned too...
November 5, 2014 7:57 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #5
They need to ban Treasure Cruise. That much I know for sure.
Affinity is becoming worse because of its relatively poor Delver matchup. UR Twin is very good with Dig Through Time. Zoo was never good, and is just even worse now. Pod got worse because its good matchups became bad matchups (Delver, Burn specifically with Treasure Cruise).
Conclusion: Ban Treasure Cruise.
November 5, 2014 8:18 p.m.
Dalektable says... #6
Biased Conclusion: Please don't ban Treasure Cruise.
November 5, 2014 8:31 p.m.
Can you give me a more convincing argument for banning the Value Boat in Modern, GlistenerAgent? Just a few months ago there were people asking to ban Birthing Pod and now those people are silent. At GP Nashville I played U/R Delver with Treasure Cruise in a Modern 8-man win-a-box and a Modern Madness with 5 rounds of swiss and ~30 people. I went 1-1 in the 8-man losing to Fish and 2-3 in the Madness losing to Infect, Pod (with a MASSIVE misplay on my part), and U/W/R Geist of Saint Traft/Young Pyromancer. To me that seems like a good showing.
November 5, 2014 8:34 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #8
Conclusion, with more detail: Ban Treasure Cruise. Suck it, Scalding Tarn aggro.
November 5, 2014 8:35 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #9
@JWiley129 It's warping the metagame. Delver is currently about 20%+ of the metagame, with Treasure Cruise being about 25% with Burn. While Pod may have gotten that high for a short time, it came back down shortly thereafter. I don't see Delver getting any less good without bannings.
I'd have to see your matches to judge whether your record could be attributed to poor play, poor deckbuilding, bad matchups or the deck just being not good enough, but I am somewhat sure that you may have just been unlucky that day.
November 5, 2014 8:39 p.m.
There's no reason to ban Treasure Cruise. A slight shift in the Meta is a good thing, and keeps everything healthy. The last few months its been almost nothing but Pod and Twin. Cruise gives a big boost to Delver and Burn, and American Control could see a nice rise as well.
Bottom line: the Meta had been stagnant for months, and this is, in my opinion, a very welcome change.
November 5, 2014 8:41 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #11
I'd like to give out a little time before i call it format warping. Of course it's a big chunk.of the meta...It's new. C'mon let's not get mad about it until anger is due.
November 5, 2014 8:44 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #12
I think about it this way: Ancestral Vision is on the banlist. Bloodbraid Elf is on the banlist. I'm not necessarily calling for an unban of either of those cards, but Treasure Cruise is miles better than both.
November 5, 2014 8:44 p.m.
Every time a new good card comes out, it sees a drastic jump in play. Then, after a few months, other decks adjust and things even back out. Right now, all the ban talk is just premature.
November 5, 2014 8:45 p.m.
GlistenerAgent - Well I'll tell you that the matches I won were to U/W/R control (turns out T3 Molten Rain in G2 and G3 is good), the mirror, and a bye. In either case I'm sure there were times I played poorly, and the decklist is adapted from LSV's Modern U/R Delver deck he played for videos on ChannelFireball. But I personally don't feel like Treasure Cruise is any more warping than Lightning Bolt or Birthing Pod.
Although, I would be interested to see a Modern format where Treasure Cruise is a Restricted card as opposed to Banned.
November 5, 2014 8:45 p.m.
You know what crushes Treasure Cruise? Rest in Peace or Bojuka Bog. Its really that easy.
Oh, that's right, I forgot about Deathrite Shaman! Unbanning perhaps?
November 5, 2014 8:56 p.m.
kmcree - the same thing can be said of Relic of Progenitus, and no one is calling to ban it. Also, Deathrite Shaman is still a bit too good for Modern.
November 5, 2014 9:04 p.m.
DRS is actually really terrible against Treasure Cruise. Can't be used in response to the spells casting, plus the decks that utilize it the best IE U/R Delver and Burn dump cards into the yard way quicker than DRS can cull them. Not to mention any respectable player would know to bolt the DRS asap.
As for the OP, my thoughts haven't really changed since the last Treasure Cruise thread. I think it might get banned. As GlistenerAgent stated, Ancestral Vision is banned, but Cruise isn't and Cruise is a way better card. Not sure I agree with BBE tho.
November 5, 2014 9:16 p.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #18
There is enough graveyard hate to balance the Cruise. Didn't they just print a zero drop artifact that exiles the graveyard? I have yet to play against a deck that uses Cruise in my area anyway. It's funny that there is talk of banning a common.
November 5, 2014 10:27 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #19
1st Unban DRS. I don't care if it's the worst card in the world vs Treasure Cruise unban it :D
2nd U/R Delver is pretty damn cheap to put together may be another reason beyond all the hype.
November 5, 2014 10:29 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #20
Scalding Tarn ain't cheap my dude. Though yeah a stack of cheap.counter burn is easy to assemble
November 5, 2014 10:32 p.m.
JonathanSamurai says... #21
Tormod's Crypt and then Cruise can't hurt you.
November 5, 2014 10:34 p.m.
Just look at mtggoldfish.com and their modern metagame. The meta is horribly unhealthy and FULL of cruise decks. Four color cruise burn shouldn't be a deck. It makes decks like jund and other "fair" decks lose the battle of card advantage with the casting of a one mana spell. Ban it plz.
November 5, 2014 11:05 p.m.
gnarlicide says... #24
for the record, bigv54: I play Jund. I have had zero problems against cruise decks. Game 1 can be tricky, but then its about baiting and not believing that Goyf is my best beater. Once I recognize that I am playing some kind of Delver deck, I immediately drop Scavenging Ooze.
Game 2 can be easier. I now do have 2 SB Tormod's Crypts for that shit. Engineered Explosives for 0 destroys delver after he flips.
November 5, 2014 11:14 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #25
So what I'm hearing is that peeps are running more graveyard hate to combat Treasure Cruise card advantage? gnarlicide as you play Jund, how do you see this (and Cruise) impacting Goyf?
Also, to be clear about a format warping, ban worthy card, see Jace, the Mindsculptor for reference. Cruise isn't on that level. That aside, I'd like to refrain from this thread being a 'ban X' or 'unban Y' card. That's just dragging a dead horse to water and trying to make it drink by beating it.
November 6, 2014 1 a.m.
I don't really see the emergence of more graveyard hate affecting Goyf all that much. There's already plenty of it around (almost every white deck has Rest in Peace side boarded). Additionally, there are plenty of removal spells that hit Goyf. Goyf isn't played because he's unbeatable, or because the meta has no answer. The meta has plenty of answers to him. Goyf is played, simply, because he is one of (if not the) most efficiently costed beater in all of MTG.
As far as the comment that "Cruise is everywhere" or "4 color Cruise shouldn't be a thing": well Goyf is everywhere, and I think you could just as easily argue that 4 color Goyf shouldn't be a thing. I mean come on: Affinity with Goyf? Twin with Goyf? There are tons of decks splashing Green just for Goyf. But that doesn't mean he should be banned. Same with Cruise.
As I said earlier, give it a few months. The meta will react and adjust, and my bet is that in a few months you'll see more variety again.
November 6, 2014 1:20 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #28
Exactly what I was thinking. Didn't everyone on this site agree like half a year ago that modern hates the graveyard? So if your opponent has a solid sideboard good luck casting Treasure Cruise for .
November 6, 2014 1:46 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #29
Well, Golgari Grave-Troll is never going to get unbanned with Treasure Cruise around. I want them to switch places. GGT deserves it's unbanning, whereas Cruise should be banned.
Seriously, if a card is being splashed for in RED DECK WINS, no less, then you know it's broken. Dig Through Time in undoubtedly the better effect, but the UU in it's mana cost prevents it from being played outside of blue.
November 6, 2014 2:11 a.m.
RDW does everything a deck needs to do to make cruise good, which is why it works.
November 6, 2014 2:22 a.m.
In my experience Burn decks that just splash for Treasure Cruise are pretty bad. I played against them three times and I haven't lost a single game. The deck that really gets buffed by Cruise is Delver. The problem I have with bringing in graveyard hate against Delver is that it does nothing against what they're trying to do, except for Treasure Cruise. I am playing Tokens and I can't really afford it to bring in Rest in Peace against Delver because as I already said it doesn't do enough against their general gameplan and it massivly cripples my Lingering Souls wich is one of my best cards against them (Zealous Persecution also makes Young Pyromancer and Delver of Secrets Flip very sad).
November 6, 2014 3:08 a.m.
Amarin1492 says... #32
The problem with using Scavenging Ooze to stop the Treasure Cruise of a UR deck is that you either have to wait for your opponent to tap out or use Scavenging Ooze's ability in response to burn, otherwise, your opponent will just kill the Scavenging Ooze when you pop the ability. Heck, even Electrolyze kills Scavenging Ooze.
November 6, 2014 3:36 a.m.
My comment about cruise being oppressive to jund and such comes from the fact that it makes your card advantage spells worse. Turn 1 thought seize turn two goyf turn three liliana and make them discard sounds like a great start, and then theyre like hey lemme cruise and it nullifies what your game plan was. I just think it is way too splashy and splashable and i hear everyone saying give it a month but i just don't see enough good ways to beat it. I think it's much more likely that players will see it as harder to beat than to join. Why beat ancestral cruise when you could just play it yourself?
November 6, 2014 6:12 a.m.
Amarin1492 says... #34
I agree that Treasure Cruise is good, but it's not ban-worthy. The only reason to ban it would be if UR decks COULD NOT do well without it. The truth is, UR decks can win fairly easily even without Treasure Cruise. The reason Deathrite Shaman was banned is that decks were relying almost solely on Deathrite. As soon as Deathrite Shaman was banned, Jund decks started doing very poorly. If Treasure Cruise was banned, UR decks would be worse but they would not "collapse" like the post-ban Jund decks did.
November 6, 2014 10:58 a.m.
gnarlicide says... #35
The answer to you goyf question: Cruise can have a negative effect on Goyf's power/toughness... SOMETIMES.
Think about the bulk of the decks that run cruise, which are primarily instant and sorcery based...
well, if Jund just does it's thing within the first few turns, I should have at least 1 instant, 1 sorcery and 1 land already in my deck. If my sorcery (presumably Inquisition of Kozilek or respective t1 discard) hits the cruise opponent on turn 1, I would probably try to hit their tempo/counter spell. Which then would leave 2 instants in their GY.
When the cruise player (we will just say UR Delver for this argument) plays Treasure Cruise on say, turn 4 or 5, they will delve... great. They will most likely remove a few instants a land or a creature. I would have the same amount of stuff in my grave yard by that time as well...
Cruise does not bother me in the slightest. At best, they can neuter Goyf by 2 to 3 P/T. At worst, they do nothing.
Affinity, which runs rampant at times in my meta (and remarkably, I shit all over that deck on a regular basis), would probably ruin me the most from a resolved treasure cruise. Ascendancy combo; I would literally lose 1 power/toughness from maybe an abrupt decayed enchantment.
Now the card advantage they get from the cruise??? So far, I have not had anything to worry about. Jund's hand attrition game should leave them top-decking by turn 3. A treasure cruise will net them 3 cards, probably to my 2 by that moment. They will more than likely not be able to play more than 1 that turn, leaving two in hand and possibly tapped out... no worries.
I would be more worried about Dig through time in modern, but nobody plays that one too much yet. Its an instant and they can choose the two cards they need. Much more powerful than cruise IMHO. I have seen players peel three lands of a cruise in a last ditch effort.
I am not saying that I am the best Jund player on the planet. BUT, I have been playing it in modern and legacy exclusively for over a year. I may have some experience with the ins and outs of the almighty Jund.
November 6, 2014 7:15 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #36
Dig Through Time is putting Splinter Twin and Scapeshift over the top. Both decks should be running at least two, as it's an incredibly powerful card. Treasure Cruise is much better IMO because the decks that can play it best also have an incredibly powerful means of supporting it, i. e. tons of cheap tempo spells.
Treasure Cruise is exactly what decks need to beat Jund. UR Delver is a good matchup for you, so Cruise may seem less powerful than it really is. In the pseudo-mirror, Treasure Cruise completely trashes the Jund player.
November 6, 2014 7:26 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #37
@Amarin1492 Delver would not do well without Treasure Cruise. Prior to the printing, it was a Tier 2 deck at best, and didn't really have the power level to compete. As it is the card is warping the format. As I said, the effect is too powerful for the format and for its cost.
They're talking about restricting it in Vintage. We need to ban it in Modern.
November 6, 2014 7:33 p.m.
Amarin1492 says... #38
@GlistenerAgent If Delver didn't have Treasure Cruise, it would run more Dig Through Time. Some people are saying that Treasure Cruise is WAY better than Dig Through Time because you get one more card for one less mana. However, Dig Through Time is much more likely to grab you a card you need. Also, Dig Through Time is an instant, so you can leave mana up for counterspells and cast it on your opponent's endstep. In my opinion, being able to get a card you need (from the top 7) at instant speed is just as powerful as drawing 3 random cards off the top at sorcery speed.
November 6, 2014 7:52 p.m.
I've been playing UR Delver with 4 Treasure Cruise and I wouldn't say it's overpowered. I've still lost games after cracking 1 or 2 of them. I've had it countered on me, which sucks, and then gone on to win without the card advantage.
It doesn't exactly trash anything in particular except Goyf, and the only people who will complain about that are people who have Goyf's and don't want them to fall in value over a common.
I've had it sat in hand plenty of times unable to play it because tapping out would too risky, and I'm not playing it super early or anything. With cards like Gitaxian Probe and Serum Visions I'm already getting tons of card advantage anyway, Cruise just helps in the late game when you've run out of steam a bit.
This isn't a format breaking card that every deck will run, it's a powerful card no doubt, but it's not impossible to stop.
The fact is, it's 1 card. The rest of the deck still needs to function and it just happens that UR Delver is well built for Cruise.
Ultimatly, if it gets banned, it gets banned. But I think if anything it simply allows for a big shift in the modern meta, and I think that's what most people are really complaining about.
Players have been complaining about not getting many Modern/Legacy/Vintage playable cards in Theros, then Wizards go and actually make a set with awesome cards that function in a variety of formats and people lose it because they suddenly have to rethink there strategy. I get you may have spent a lot of money on a deck, but whats the point when the Meta feels so stale, this is why I like Standard so much, the meta actually shifts around more than Modern, where decks stay at relativly the same level consistently. I'd rather have Modern thrown up a bit to allow some new decks to come into their stride, than keep playing the same decks over and over again
November 6, 2014 8:02 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #40
I'm not going to argue about whether or not the card is powerful, because there is no question that it's busted.
"Draw three cards" should not be on any card legal in Modern except for Ancestral Vision, which is a special case.
I play against very strong Delver pilots, and in their hands the deck is incredibly powerful. Aggro-control can't be played by idiots (not calling anyone out in particular, just pointing this out), and in this case when played right it is flat-out dominant.
November 6, 2014 8:16 p.m.
Well Ancestral Vision is banned in Modern so....
I don't want to toot my own horn, but I'm a pretty solid player, and it's not like I win 100% of the time with it, and Cruise doesn't make the deck. Like I said, won plenty without it, won plenty with it.
November 6, 2014 8:56 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #42
GlistenerAgent Word. I've been playing Aggro/Control in standard and it wrecks shop!
November 6, 2014 9:01 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #43
I suppose this discussion isn't going anywhere. I'll hold my opinion that Ancestral Recall shouldn't be legal. Ancestral Recall after four turns is completely fine.
November 6, 2014 9:10 p.m.
forestlore44 says... #44
It still surprises me why Harmonize never saw any play...
November 6, 2014 11:46 p.m.
Amarin1492 says... #45
@Forestlore44 Because harmonize costs 4 mana and is at sorcery speed, which is too slow and costly for modern.
November 7, 2014 12:16 a.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #46
Dig Through Time, as said, suits combo decks better. I do like that it's an Instant, however it seems hard to pull off in a shard deck vs a bi colored deck due to its intensive cost. Granted there's plenty of mana fixing in the format, but Treasure Cruise is much more splash able. Both cards don't really become relevant until 'late game,' being turn 4 or better.
Now, what about Monastery Swiftspear? Seems that she has made a relative impact on tempo and some aggro decks. I've seen burn play her over Guide, which I personally don't like, but I like her better in a tempo shell.
November 7, 2014 9:43 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #47
I just added Monastery Swiftspear to my burn build and I'm loving her. Quite a powerhouse in a deck full of low CMC spells... My T4 wins just became way more consistent.
November 7, 2014 10:18 a.m.
I found GlistenerAgent's comment - ""Draw three cards" should not be on any card legal in Modern except for Ancestral Vision, which is a special case." - quite amusing.
- Ancestral Vision = Banned (I know, he means that he feels it should be unbanned, but still amusing.)
- There are currently 26 cards legal in Modern with "draw three cards" printed on them.
Treasure Cruise is simply the easiest of these 26 to play around the cards downfall (high casting cost = downfall... Delve is the method of playing around)
Other cards, like Shared Discovery, Ideas Unbound or Visions of Beyond, could be just as strong in the right decks, but can't be as relied upon as easily as having 7 cards in your graveyard.
November 7, 2014 12:42 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #49
I suppose I should have thought that comment over. It still stands that Treasure Cruise has too powerful an effect.
@Rayenous You somewhat answered your own question. The condition for Cruise to draw three is much, much more widely achievable than others.
November 7, 2014 2:51 p.m.
It's no more "widely achievable" than getting a high powered Tarmogoyf.
Get 7 cards in your graveyard, and you probably have a 2CMC 4/5 or 5/6.
Sure people are going to argue "Goyf die to removal"... but that's no different than hitting 2 or 3 land with Treasure Cruise. Sometime it will seem over powered... other times it will be lack-luster.
I'm not arguing that Treasure Cruise shouldn't be banned... I'm just saying that I haven't seen an argument that has fully convinced me yet.
- When I compare it to Ponder, I'm forced to realize that Treasure Cruise does not allow you to change the order in which you will get cards, and does not allow you to say 'no' to those 3 cards...
- When compared to Preordain, again, you do not change the order of cards, and do not get to say 'no' to those cards....
- When compared to Ancestral Vision, I feel Treasure Cruise is a little more situational, and can not be 'cascaded' into... and I am somewhat inclined to agree that Ancestral Vision may be worthy of an unbanning. (Though you wouldn't want a deck to have the option of running 8x easy "Draw 3" spells.)
- When compared to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, I notice a repeatable Fateseal and Brainstorm.
All of this tells me that, although "Draw 3" is powerful, it's the ability to be selective and choose the cards you will draw that makes some Blue cards ban-worthy.
The argument of it 'warping the meta' may be legitimate, but I think it's too soon to say... when a powerful card is printed, every deck tries to play it. - If it takes a Tier 2 deck and makes it a Tier 1, that's great (so far, thats' what it looks like to me)... but if it makes it a Tier 1 that you 'must play' or 'must play a deck designed to beat it'.... well, that's not healthy for the game.
The question of 'How strong does a draw spell have to be to be banned?' is only something for Wizards to answer.
VampireArmy says... #2
I think it means people have to respect blue as a color again. People are used to seeing combo after combo in the top seats. Those decks gotta rework to adapt. Not sure what that means but I'm going to keep building my mardu midrange and kiki control and see if one of them can earn me some wins
November 5, 2014 7:39 p.m.