Banning Zedruu: Your Thoughts?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on March 25, 2015, 5:19 a.m. by IQuarent
It is my belief that Zedruu the Greathearted should be banned. I am not exaggerating when I say if I literally had the ability to ban a card from EDH, it would definitely, without a doubt, be her.
The reason for this is that Zedruu is, in my mind, indisputably the most degenerate commander in the entire format. (Beyond banned ones like Erayo, Soratami Ascendant)
I've been playing commander voraciously for about 6 solid years, and I've gone against at least half-a-dozen different Zedruu decks in that time. In almost all cases, my games against these decks could and would be placed in my Top 10 Worst Games of Magic Ever Played.
My true, seething hatred for Zedruu is for sure rooted in personal experience playing against her above all else, and I feel that I have given the card PLENTY of chances to prove itself as NOT horrifyingly traumatic to play against. I don't want to negatively characterize all players of Zedruu this way, but in my experience, every claim made that they play "nice, political Zedruu" has been a completely self-aware lie. I wish that at some point I could have been proven wrong, but I never have.
Anyway, regardless of my personal experience, I wanted to get a crowd opinion on the general consensus about playing against Zedruu and the base emotion brought forth in people when confronted with the mere prospect of a ban.
For those of you who either haven't played against Zedruu or haven't played against Zedruu ENOUGH, the point of Zedruu typically is to drag the game out as long as possible with intention on continually upping the complexity until Zedruus opponents get frustrated and scoop. This is not a generalization or an ungrounded personal belief. The observation that this is her typical strategy is well founded. See the link below.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/magicalhacker-zedruu-the-greathearted/
I have plenty of stories about just how bad things can get. These days, when someone pulls out a Zedruu deck, I either walk away from the table or dust off my rarely-used control-bonanza mono-blue EDH and it basically turns into two 1 v 1 games instead of multi-player.
Beyond this, Zedruu, on a fundamental level, ENCOURAGES degenerate play, because it is very difficult to even make a Zedruu deck without including cards that are intended to slow the game and hurt other players without actually killing them. The life gain and draw effect also encourages slow games to lock out opponents in order to best capitalize on it; the more people that are alive, the more cards and life there is to be gained. It really encourages exactly the wrong kind of deck building.
I understand some people enjoy playing Zedruu and I want to get the opinion of those players also for the sake of fairness, but in complete honesty the players of this general I've personally met play her as a way to amuse themselves as they see others saddened, angered or literally put in physical pain(headache) until they are forced to leave the game. That is the definition of sadism, so the majority of you reading this may understand that I admittedly might not have the utmost respect for people like this. I try to extend respect to all people I meet of course, but I think we can ALL agree that some people do not make this easy.
What are your thoughts on this, fellow EDH players?
JexInfinite says... #3
My friend plays Zedruu knowing that other people hate it. He finds joy in not letting other people plays magic. Control in all formats.
March 25, 2015 5:49 a.m.
Fair point, but for me it isn't about Zedruu being "unbeatable" because she certainly isn't. As I said, a Mono-Blue EDH can usually wreck Zedruu if they choose the focus on her.
The players I've gone against weren't newbies; they knew exactly what they were doing. They were horribly and maliciously screwing over other players for giggles without any intent to advance the game or win.
It's more about what she represents. Stax, overbearing control and other degenerate strategies are annoying, but at least the player is actually making optimum plays and trying to win. As I admitted, my problem with Zedruu is mostly a personal one, but she is ultimately utterly horrible to play against about as consistently as other banned generals are. Those generals were just banned for the reason of being over-powered.
March 25, 2015 5:50 a.m.
I mean, you find it degenerate, but it is a valid way of playing and countering strategies that like to build up momentum then go rampant. Other generals were banned because they could singlehandedly provide a huge advantage. Braids coming in on turn 3 or 4 means that you're opponent pretty much stops gaining mana turn 4 or 5, which is far too consistent for a card that you almost always have access to.
Erayo was banned most likely because as a blue player, flipping her isn't hard, but mostly because it makes counterspells much more effective in a format designed for group play. Counterspells were usually were more situational due to the fact that they don't usually generate card advantage for you, leaving you and the target worse off while not affecting other players. Not to mention enchantments are harder to remove than creatures and her ability effectively shuts down other counterspell based decks by resetting on every player's turn.
Rofellos was banned because if he comes in turn 2, you can have upwards of 6 mana without any other ramp factored in, which means you have an incredibly effective ramp spell in your command zone coupled with an archetype that can go infinite with very few cards.
Zedruu herself does not provide an overwhelming advantage. In fact her ability only works when used in conjunction with other cards. So tapping out on turn 3/4 for Zedruu offers no immediate gain. It doesn't even give you anything the turn after you play her due to her trigger being during upkeep. So while other commanders can bring a huge amount to the table the turn or the turn after they come into play without any other cards, Zedruu will rarely do anything until at least 2 turns after she is played and requires a board state prior to her being played.
March 25, 2015 6:04 a.m.
Its hard to swallow sure,.. but itll never be banned because its never won an event. Its far from competitive- any of these commanders would be banned first
March 25, 2015 6:52 a.m.
This thread gave me the inspiration to make a Zedruu deck. I mean, at least it's not Nath, right?
March 25, 2015 6:59 a.m.
Necrotize I am loving the detail of your responses!
I should perhaps clarify that I understand the mechanical idiosyncrasies and meta of EDH pretty well, though.
And again addressing an apparent lack of clarity on my part I am also not a French EDH player, nor a tournament level multi-player EDH fan. Just a guy who has A LOT of experience with Magic in general and a love for the EDH format. I could go into why I love EDH in much detail, but basically what it comes down to is that I am a Johnny at heart and I see EDH as a kind of epitome of deck building expression(considering its diversity and ridiculous level of possible interaction of "good" and "bad" cards in even a single deck) and an artful way of optimizing whimsical casual play with small-scale personal socialization of more than 2 people.
I also know that Zedruu definitely won't be banned any time soon if at all and R&D have bigger things to focus on in EDH than degenerate play of her particular type. I would have used a word besides "banning" that has a less authoritarian meaning but none exist to properly express disdain and ostracization of a single card to a large scale when it comes to a game like Magic.
Zedruu is basically just a slap in the face to casual multi-player. That doesn't sound like much considering that every player has a personal list of a hundred petty niggles when it comes to the format(Armageddon grr grr etc), but considering just how truly miserable she is to play against I guess I was looking for a certain amount of validation to that effect. Honestly I'm just glad I haven't been flamed for expressing such a strong opinion in opposition to a card that a considerable demographic likes! XD
March 25, 2015 7:35 a.m.
I think you essentially believe that because you enjoy playing the game a certain way other people should do too. This isn't true. I like to call this the 'EDH fallacy'. It comes up constantly.
March 25, 2015 8:31 a.m.
@ChiefBell Actually that's not what I meant at all. I don't think people SHOULD play the game as I do, just that maybe some other people feel the same way. An opinion such as this is more worthy of holding if some people actually agree. I feel that I made it very, very clear that this is my own view on the matter.
I've certainly met my fair share of people of people who hate Zedruu almost as much as I do but so far it doesn't look like very many of them use this website. XD
March 25, 2015 8:41 a.m.
Bans aren't made on opinion. That was my point. Even if lots of people agree it doesn't make it fact. You still FEEL that zedruu is degenerate. Lots of others FEEL that he isn't. Taking action based on this is not how magic works.
March 25, 2015 8:48 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #12
Zedruu is an awful commander. I personally have a Zedruu deck that does exactly the kinds of things that you are complaining about. However, there are other commanders out there that can do the exact same things as Zedruu and to the same effect. Narset, Enlightened Master also gives card advantage and encourages playing lots of enchantment/artifact/sorceries that would otherwise be unplayable. Even if Zedruu was banned, there would be alternatives that are just as effective.
Anyways, if you dislike playing against Zedruu decks, simply choose not to play against that player. I only play my Zedruu deck now when we are doing games that people want to take 1-3 hours and know what my deck does, simply because I know that people who don't like it will be miserable. Just look at some of the plays as entertainment rather than terrible. Scrambleverse with a Hive Mind in play may not be the most degenerate thing in existence, it might slow down play, but it's also hilarious to have people play all sorts of things and do all sorts of abilities, then swap them out for new cards.
All in all, Zedruu won't be banned. She is unfun for certain decks, but just banning her due to those decks would also be unfair for people who play Zedruu with actual group hug/group slug in mind. (I've played against Control Zedruu before, way worse than anything my deck could dish out. Imagine Zedruu that runs Armageddon and such...)
March 25, 2015 8:48 a.m.
There exists a ton of counterplay against the things that Zedruu does. Also, you mention that you aren't pushing for this change because of trying to force your own opinion, but rather because others share that opinion as well. By that extension we could out forth a motion to ban blue altogether. After all, who doesn't hate control, right? I'm sure you can see how silly that would be.
If I want to make others feels utterly miserable, it's not the job of the ruleset to curb my behavior. Instead, this is where the social nature of the format shines.
March 25, 2015 8:54 a.m.
Now, I'm not an EDH expert by any means, but-
I notice that there are a lot of decks and commanders in the format that aren't fun to play against yet can't operate on a competitive level. When I say this, I don't mean I personally don't find them fun to play against, I mean I can hardly talk to anyone who doesn't tell me that MLD/control/combo/Memnarch/Zedruu/etc is bad.
It's not really like the RC can go around banning such a huge amount of playstyles merely because they aren't fun for most people to play against- rules should be tailored to competitive play, and casual players who don't want to be bogged down with decks like that can easily institute house rules. I can see where you're coming from that this is a problem; but if it's only a problem for casual play, it should stay in house-rule territory. Partly why I feel the recent "no tucking" rule change makes no sense.
March 25, 2015 9:41 a.m.
@ChiefBell Did you read my other posts beyond the OP? It does not appear so. If you have not, I recommend doing so. If you have, pardon my presumption.
Please stop aggressively implying that I don't understand the fact that other people feel and live differently than I do. It is, frankly, insulting. Also, saying the phrase "that's not how magic works" is wholly unnecessary. I think I have a pretty good idea of how this game works, thank you very much. And in the case that I don't, that's why I try to keep an open mind.
Anyway...
@lemmingllama Yes, I certainly agree with all the points you made. I don't have much love for Narset, Enlightened Master either. My ideal for 'thz wurst zedruu evar' is pretty well encapsulated in the link I gave; it's not cutthroat or competitive, just horrifically complex and sadistically token. Zedruu decks that aren't played for the sheer horribleness must exist of course, but I certainly have never played against one(in 6 years of EDH play), and the general has been so tainted in my eyes that she is irredeemable. Again, I know people who feel the same way.
I'm enjoying the discussion though! Thanks for taking the time to respond guys.
March 25, 2015 9:47 a.m.
insertcleverid says... #16
OP, I feel like there's an unspoken premise here, that your observation applies specifically to sanctioned, competitive EDH. In that format, Zedruu players make a mockery of the event. Their 'plan' is to hijack the game and dissemble everyone's very serious efforts, yet they never can win themselves. It's a miserable waste of everyone's time. WHY would someone do that?
It also seems like most (not all) of the pro-Zedruu arguments come from the kitchen table. At the kitchen table Zedruu is groan-inducing but not a waste of time.
When someone pulls out a Zedruu deck during a casual game, I hear Jeff Goldblum from Jurassic park "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could that they didn't stop to think if they should." I imagine that during a tournament seeing a Zedruu sounds like Michael Caine from Batman Begins "some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn."
March 25, 2015 10:22 a.m.
lemmingllama says... #17
Actually Zedruu decks do have win conditions. Take my Some Goats Want to Watch the World Burn for example. It can win by drawing other people out with Shared Fate, or by powering up a Thought Lash, or by killing people with their own creatures. The fun with it is that you get to do something every single turn, and you get to keep doing stuff even on other people's turns due to triggers. It is very interactive and you get to learn to manage large amount of complex triggers.
Also I know that some people really hate this kind of deck, so I normally don't break it out unless other people are trying to be degenerate or we are trying to make a silly game even sillier.
March 25, 2015 10:39 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #18
My Zedruu deck (Let's Play Pokemon- Wonder Trading) doesn't have any degenerate shenanigans in it, and people enjoy playing against it.
March 25, 2015 12:17 p.m.
Zedruu was my first EDH deck and I personally found it extremely difficult pilot at first, needing help with complex triggers, so naturally I found it equally difficult to win. But even now as a more experienced player my play group knows what to expect and play accordingly, that's just simple meta gaming. I win much more consistently now. I don't find it fun to frustrate others, but to utilize a unique win condition, succession; however, my playgroup is full of very cruel players so I don't feel bad for pissing them off.
March 25, 2015 12:28 p.m.
CommanderOfBolas says... #20
I don't really get what the big deal is. Zedruu decks bring a legitimate strategy to the table, and it being "unfun" and what not is not a legitimate argument to ban him. People enjoy the game in different ways. The only reason Zedruu would be banned is if he was overpowered and dominating the format, which he is not.
March 25, 2015 3:15 p.m.
MAGESTIC_LLAMA says... #21
You're saying Zedruu the Greathearted is stax? Well then buddy, I got some news for you, theres this thing called Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, and if you want to talk about degenerate commanders Zedruu the Greathearted is far off the mark.
March 25, 2015 4:48 p.m.
MirranTitan says... #22
I have to say, I had a buddy who played Zedruu and I played a lot of fun games with him. As a commander, I feel like Zedruu is very fun to play with and against. sure, there are some obscure cards she can force on you, but there are plenty of cards where she passes you something like Howling Mine or Conjured Currency which are just plain fun in my opinion. There was one game, where Zedruu flashed in Storm Herd went to attack, and cast Mirrorweave on a sphinx of uhtuun and killed us all. Personally, I thought that was hilarious.
Zedruu is a commander that although possessing a strong ability, it doesn't do anything by itself. It is also worth noting that jeskai only has Narset, Enlightened Master Numot, the Devastator
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest Zedruu the Greathearted and Ruhan of the Fomori as generals. And Narset aside (she's cool and all) I think I would probably play zedruu.
March 25, 2015 4:57 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
The proposal is just divorced from the reality of the format, I'm sorry to say. I don't begrudge you your experience, but the format should not be regulated based on how you feel about a certain deck. This is an issue to be worked out at the political level within a playgroup, not on the legislative level across the format.
If you feel that a certain deck isn't offering or producing the kind of game you want, take it up with the player using the deck. A playgroup is about bringing together people with similar expectations and wants and producing a game that is enjoyable for all parties.
On the topic of the card itself, Zedruu is far from banworthy. It doesn't do anything degenerate. It doesn't force anyone to do anything degenerate. It seems like you're using the word "degenerate" because you just don't like it and not because the deck actually does anything wrong. "exactly the wrong kind of deck building"? No. Exactly the wrong kind of attitude.
March 25, 2015 5:41 p.m.
@MirranTitan Again, from the perspective of myself, such Zedruu decks exist in some kind of imaginary opposite-world pocket dimension because I have played against many, many Zedruu decks and NONE of them have been like that. Ever. Made worse is the fact that many times people I have played CLAIMED that their decks are the "fun Zedruu" only for it to be a completely self-aware lie, and there in lies the reasoning for my Zealous Persecution of the card.
All of the Zedruu decks I've played against are pretty much this with varying levels of petty vindictiveness. It's not f***ing fun. I have no problem with chaos cards like Warp World and Scrambleverse but BS like Celestial Dawn(you can only use colorless!) Winter Orb(we all know that one) and Steel Golem turn what should be a GAME into sitting on our asses doing nothing while the Zedruu deck diddles about finding creative ways to screw us over FURTHER, OR, calculus homework accompanied with constant headache-inducing obscure rules arguments in which the Zedruu player is usually right, albeit giving very poorly phrased explanations, to the disappointment of us all. I play Magic, and EDH especially, to have fun, something I don't think is unreasonable to assume is the motivation of most people who play Magic even if it is a presumption. In honesty it's hard not to feel resentful when certain players make it their personal mission to make sure that everyone else is simply miserable for hours on end.
Extreme opinion is extreme; I am well aware of this. After going through what I have with this card, repeatedly, I believe most of you would at least sympathize(in your disagreement) if you didn't agree with me to any logical extent...
Short story: A couple years ago I was playing a three player EDH with what appeared to be a seriously mannered but fundamentally fair and empathetic guy and a another guy named Chris I used to go to high school with(though for some reason he ADAMANTLY denies this fact; he was a dick back then too). At the time I was playing a far-from-optimal somewhat fun red deck, while Chris was playing Zedruu and the other guy was playing semi-competitive esper with what I considered to be a pretty fair general(e.g. not Zur the Enchanter). About two hours in the game was, for the most part, completely stalled and generally stagnant because nothing could be played as intended. One thing I remember very clearly was that Psychic Battle was on the field(while the card is a pain, I didn't really have much to complain about there because I had Sensei's Divining Top and Dragonstorm in my top 3) and a board full of general nuisances that punished everyone, including the Zedruu player! About 20 minutes after the two hour mark, I scooped and left, despite my Psychic Battle advantage, because the game was a boring slog and clearly not going anywhere. When I picked my cards, Chris asked the other guy if he was scooping to, and he resolutely said "No, I want to either kill you or see you actually win." THREE HOURS LATER, the guy scooped. It juxtaposed the guys impressive will power with just how relentlessly dickish Zedruu can be.
This has been my overall experience with Zedruu, and there have been games played with her that made me literally leave the store because I felt so dejected that I would rather do ANYTHING else than play Magic after that game.
Yes, I already made the point that when someone pulls out Zedruu nowadays I either walk away or pull out my mono-blue EDH in order to relentlessly screw them over(something I'd rather not do to anyone ever) so that we might play an actual GAME, but this negative experience ultimately came from giving the card a fair chance one too many times.
See where I'm coming from now people?
March 25, 2015 6:06 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #25
That's still an issue with the playgroup or the individual players and not with the card.
March 25, 2015 6:29 p.m.
@Epochalyptik Absolutely! I don't deny that at all!
Well, I disagree with the last statement slightly; I DO think that Zedruu encourages running degenerate cards because to a certain extent it is difficult to build Zedruu WITHOUT running cards that pretty much always suck to be on the receiving end of(Pyromancer's Swath) for the sake of "proper" deck building(like running fetches and dual-lands in multicolored, or running Armageddon/Devastation in superfriends, or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker with infinite combos: Not required by any sense of the word, but generally conceded to be the best way to go). In my mind this makes Zedruu fundamentally flawed as a concept when she is a commander. No one is FORCED to run or not run any card, but it is certainly difficult not to run degenerate cards in Zedruu, apparently, from my discussions with the 'nice' Zedruu players online. The general consensus I've seen is "Why WOULDN'T I run those cards?"
For the record, I don't really have a 'playgroup'. If I want to play Magic I either go to my LGS or on untap.in, both of which force me to play with people that vary in level of personal familiarity and also vary in levels of respect I have for them. Nothing is wrong with this; usually it works, and infrequently it backfires or simply isn't enjoyable. Sometimes I forget that this is not as typical as it appears to be to me.
The use of the word "ban" was a bit harsh, and I know full well that this card will never be banned, only that I wish it was for admittedly trivial reasons.
Perhaps I approached this topic incorrectly. I likely should have opened with "Does anyone resent this card as much as I do?" instead of "Banhammer grr grr". I am continuously confronted with the fact that I still have a lot to learn about starting threads and that they go in a direction I didn't intend with alarming frequency. At least the community on here is nice enough to put up with it as long as it provokes stimulating conversation. :D
March 25, 2015 6:31 p.m.
(Epochalyptik, in the above comment I was referring to your first post when addressing the points you made... got ninja'd)
March 25, 2015 6:36 p.m.
jandrobard says... #28
I've seen a lot of unfun things done in commander. Zedruu is unfun, but certainly a fair premise; you steal, repeatedly destroy, or Darksteel Mutation it, and suddenly the deck is in topdeck mode rapidly searching for Bazaar Trader. Granted, the new tuck rules make getting rid of their commander a challenge, but that's part of the fun.
March 25, 2015 9:14 p.m.
Hmm, I think I see the problem here. Your problem isn't with Zedruu specifically, it's with EDH decks oriented more towards creating chaos than winning the game and the cards that allow them to accomplish this.
Each one of your explanations of you frustration include stalled board states where you have little control over what happens due to cards such as Eye of the Storm, Possibility Storm, Celestial Dawn, ect.
None of this has to do with what Zedruu is doing, which is gaining life and drawing cards. The strange and unique activated ability Zedruu has, along with being Jeskai colored, is what draws players of these Chaotic Prison decks to her.
I in no way think that Zedruu should be banned. Even if it was, your problem would still exist. The players of these decks would simple find a new general to put at the head of their chaotic decks that create stalled, confusing board states and then you would be calling for a ban on whatever new general they found and we'd be here all over again.
To sum up, just because a majority of players have characterized Zedruu in this fashion does not mean every Zedruu deck fits this description. You need to clear up what you are actually seeking, which is an end to Chaotic decks that stall and confuse instead of trying to win.
March 25, 2015 9:49 p.m.
As I already said, I don't have any problems with chaos cards. At all. Possibility Storm and red chaos goodstuffs are fine by me. If you really want an idea of cards I hate in Zedruu...
Pyromancer's Swath, Celestial Dawn(by giving this card to an opponent who doesn't use white they can now only produce colorless mana), Thought Lash, Storm Cauldron, Winter Orb, Steel Golem, Aggressive Mining ... etc. None of these are chaos cards.
I don't mind chaos cards or tactics. My problem is with Zedruu or more specifically the strategy she promotes, which is to say, no strategy at all beyond frustrating opponents into scooping.
March 25, 2015 10:05 p.m.
I sympathize with you, I really do. Especially since I actually have the MagicalHacker himself with that very list in my local meta. I have to fight that deck every so often, and I really hate it.
...But, I can't say that Zedruu the Greathearted is ban-worthy. I hate her viciously, I really do, but I don't think that it's justifiable to throw the ban hammer at her for that.
March 25, 2015 10:54 p.m.
"...Or more specifically the strategy she promotes, which is to say, no strategy at all beyond frustrating opponents into scooping."
IQuarent That's my point. If Zedruu were banned, the people who play this type of strategy would simply find a new commander. Getting rid of Zedruu will not get rid of what is truly making you frustrated.
March 25, 2015 11:15 p.m.
Named_Tawyny says... #33
IQuarent, you say that you're a Johnny player. That confuses me, because Zedruu is pretty much the prototypical Johnny Commander.
Think about it; what do Johnny players love? They love expressing themselves through their decks and using cards creatively. What does Zedruu do? She opens up a lot of otherwise unplayable cards to playability, forces interesting choices, and turns games around.
That's what EDH is all about.
March 25, 2015 11:27 p.m.
@Named_Tawyny Your argument is a moot point because it in reality has nothing to do with anything. I like deck building, therefore I must like and agree with the potential of every interesting card that comes along. I'm also a Magic player, so I will generalize that as well by saying that all Magic players like cards, and therefore like Zedruu. It doesn't make any sense.
It's certainly interesting to be able to toy around with buckets of otherwise terrible cards, but if the intent is to make other people miserable, again, see the link, the potential of the deck-building doesn't matter to me. And no, that's not hypocritical because briefly identifying as a "Johnny" does not make me honor-bound to acknowledge every interesting card interaction. Sure Knowledge Pool, Eye of the Storm and Hive Mind are a pretty creative interaction but that doesn't make me have to advocate for it. It's a freaking mess. An interesting mess, and I respect its complexity, but I think I have the right to want it far, far away from me when it happens. I can come to similar conclusions about other cards. Namely Zedruu. I don't like the card, and I've given my reasons.
@Caes I'm going to be really, really blunt here and say to cut it out with the psychoanalysis. Don't tell me what's going on inside my head because you've never met me and clearly aren't using hard evidence to back up your statements. I know that many generals suck to play against for a variety of reasons and "degenerate" can have a pretty flexible meaning, but when I say "this is the thing I have a problem with" you can take my word for it instead of telling me "what is really bothering me". You aren't my psychologist(although maybe you actually are a psychologist; I don't know, so benefit of the doubt there). This sounds pretty stern, but being direct and blunt is the best way I know to address problems so please don't take it personally; I don't mean it that way.
@Octrate Yay! You grasped my muddled, poorly communicated point! That really, this comes down to what people think of the card and how it makes them feel. I really shouldn't have used the term "ban" in my OP so I take responsible for the communication issue. I should have phrased it "Does anyone resent/hate this card as much as I do?" I'll try to learn from that in the future. Regardless I think this turned into a pretty productive thread, which is nice.
March 26, 2015 12:59 a.m.
Point taken, I apologize if I've offended you in any way. I will say that I agree with you in the fact that players whose strategy is not to win, but to force other players to scoop out of sheer frustration are absolutely horrible to play against and shouldn't be playing Commander in the first place.
On the other side of the coin, I myself play a Zedruu deck. I have filled it with cards that I find very fun to play with such as Possibility Storm, Pyxis of Pandemonium, Knowledge Pool, etc.
I also play a few cards that, as you have pointed out, cause frustration such as Pyromancer's Swath, Thought Lash and Steel Golem.
Hear me out. My strategy involves staying alive and playing politically, (it is not rare to see me pass another player lands in their color to help them catch up from mana screw) while playing chaos effects to keep the game interesting. I keep this up until I reach a favorable position with hopefully only one or two opponents left and then make my move to win. Cards such as Pyromancer's Swath are used purely out of retaliation. I will also point out that I do not run Celestial Dawn, Winter Orb or any other effects that completely lock someone out of the game or cause the game to grind to a halt.
I play Zedruu with the intent of creating a unique, fun, and unpredictable game of Commander, and I am content to merely sit back and create chaos for the majority of the game.
March 26, 2015 9:29 a.m.
@Caes Nah Im not offended, dont worry.
Honestly that deck sounds great. Ive played against decks like that in the past...
...but Ive never played against a Zedruu deck like that; Ive only heard about them.
Every time I sat down to play against Zedruu it was with the hope that it would be one of the nicer ones. But after so many TERRIBLE games the card has pretty much earned my eternal hatred. Especially considering half the players have CLAIMED to be nice Zedruu only for it to turn out to be a lie.
In addition, I havent seen very many other generals who seem tailor-made to grind out the game degenerately, and nothing as consistent as Zedruu, certainly. There are grindy generals(oloro and derevi) but these not being really DEGENERATE generals, typically. Most of the non-Zedruu decks that get close to her level of painful are the really slow combo decks (like Narset or turn 4 win Nekusar). Mono blue can get there, but its mostly because they lock the board before they actually get their wincon, not because the deck is built for that...
The strategy is definitely the actual problem, so I agree there, but for me Zedruu is like the incarnate representation of that strategy. I can deal with stuff like Pyromancer's Swath if it's fairly implemented... If I can handle Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur I can handle that.
But despite wanting to, Ive never been proven wrong about Zedruu in the 1000+ commander games Ive played. * shrug *
March 28, 2015 5:23 a.m.
It sounds like there is a bit of a power gap between the Zedruu decks and the rest of the table here.
As a general rule, Zedruu is built one of two ways: to be janky and annoying, often times with chaos effects, or as a stax deck.
It sounds like you're talking about the later, which to be honest I would prefer to play (I cannot stand chaos decks). They run things like Aggressive Mining, Celestial Dawn and Illusions of Grandeur to screw with players.
The thing is though, Zedruu is a tri-coloured deck without green, meaning he's slow. Shut him down early game and he's not a problem. And sure, there are mana rocks, but if you're coming up against people running Mana Crypt against your pre-con or whatever, either you picked the wrong fight or your opponent is an asshat.
I know what you're saying in that he definately does lend himself towards certain builds, but an important thing that every magic player needs to do (myself included) is make sure that your own deck has answers. And I'm not saying you should build an Anti-Zedruu deck or just cram in every coutnerspell available, but more make sure that your deck isn't being too greedy. Because you paint a giant target on yourself against stax decks doing that.
April 2, 2015 1:34 a.m.
"..but if you're coming up against people running Mana Crypt against your pre-con or whatever, either you picked the wrong fight or your opponent is an asshat."
Ha ha ha ha! I love this! Thanks for posting it.
"I'm not saying you should build an Anti-Zedruu deck..."
Funny thing: I actually did that. I mean, I made the deck with general playability in mind, but anti-zedruu was the motivation:
Mono-Blue Venser, Shaper Savant. Normally, mono-blue isnt really my style, but Venser f$$$s Zedruu pretty hard. Strategic bouncing of permanents and counters can really wreck her("return to its owners hand"), especially if I feel like being a big enough dick to target her resources early game(again, not really my style). If nothing else, Zedruu is forced into a "if you dont screw me I wont screw you" deal, and experienced players know that is exactly what mono-blue EDH decks want. While playing the deck I accidentally discovered that Venser, Shaper Savant actually ruins most generals(nekusar, animar, derevi, kaalia, skullbriar, any general with +1/+1 counters, avacyn, omnath, skithiryx, zur the enchanter, mimeoplasm, any of the gods, etc etc etc there of course being massive exceptions)and his ability to disrupt literally every non-split second spell in the game endeared me to him. Ultimately he became my "Youre playing a dickish general? Well Im pulling out Venser" deck.
But honestly, it only Reiterates just how much I hate Zedruu the Greathearted, because if I didnt that deck wouldn't exist.
April 3, 2015 6:09 a.m.
You think Zedruu should be banned but made no mention of Narset, Enlightened Master?
You realize that all these crazy Chaos decks can be played with Narset as the commander right?
Necrotize says... #2
The problem is that Zedruu's ability isn't really overpowered and the deck usually has a very topdown approach. It just complicates the board state. Things can always seem more complicated than they usually are, so organizing the board really helps. I'll usually create two piles when a Zedruu player donates things to me. Things that they donated that have no effect anymore/things that don't matter who controls them, and another pile for things that affect me specifically because I control them.
Games can still however become very complicated and this is largely in part due to the Zedruu player not knowing their own deck well enough. Its similar to Eggs I suppose. A good player will never miss their own triggers and finish their turn quickly, while a less skilled player will miss triggers, forget what's in play, or complicate things unnecessarily. Since Zedruu's ability isn't broken/OP in a mechanic sense, banning it just because it is annoying would just lead people to think they can ban control, stax or just consistent generals because they don't like playing against them.
Zedruu has a very niche ability which allow for interesting card choices, allowing you to pick cards that otherwise would be terrible. But it does have a fatal flaw. Without Zedruu, they will not have the life, resources or ability to donate consistently and thus just have a deck full of cards that are half a combo. Removing Zedruu quickly or simply going with a more aggressive plan can usually kill a Zedruu player before they can stabilize.
March 25, 2015 5:32 a.m.