Valor & Vanity | Foil Knight Tribal

Modern NensouHiebara

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micah1 says... #1

With 4 knight of the white orchid, you need more like 22 lands. I'd Replace them with Phyrexian Metamorph.

November 19, 2014 4:38 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #2

@micah1

Not dropping below 24 land. There's no guarantee I will see Knight of the White Orchid when I want to and missing land drops is too damning.

November 19, 2014 5:30 p.m.

micah1 says... #3

I've played a similar deck, essentially with o-rings instead of dismember and cavalier instead of Silverblade paladin. 22 lands has been doing me fine.

November 19, 2014 7:09 p.m.

miracleHat says... #4

please explain:
Mutavault > Cavern of Souls

October 31, 2015 5:14 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #5

@miracleHat

Mutavault:

  • Applies board presence just by existing, threatening damage when undefended.
  • It's boosted by Knight Exemplar.
  • Potential scapegoat against forced-sacrifice effects.

Cavern of Souls:

  • Irrelevant against non-Blue decks, which is most of Modern.
  • Useless in multiples.

I've tried Cavern of Souls. It doesn't do anything. Mutavault is a much better card for the deck.

October 31, 2015 11:18 p.m.

ureht says... #6

what about aether vial, flashing in a Knight Exemplar in response to a removal seems like a great play.

November 11, 2015 7:13 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #7

@ureht

I don't like AEther Vial for this deck. Every creature is delayed to get onto the field waiting for the counters to tick up and the CMC among my creatures is too varied. And they're dead draws after the first one.

November 11, 2015 8:11 p.m.

GeminiSpartanX says... #8

Any chance for Honor of the Pure in this deck? Knights don't have many lords, and it could help shave down your average cmc. Perhaps cutting some 4-drops for a few? Also with the prevalence of burn, would Knight of Meadowgrain have a place in the deck?

February 9, 2016 3:43 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #9

@GeminiSpartanX

Used to run Honor of the Pure. It was a horrid mid-late game draw with an empty board. I'm much happier with the higher CMC cards, as they're standalone win conditions when my earlier creatures are killed off.

No interest in Knight of Meadowgrain. This deck isn't built to face-off against Modern's high-tiered decks. Burn decks would slaughter me no matter what I do.

February 9, 2016 5:21 p.m.

squidguy says... #10

Kinsbaile Cavalier is better than Silverblade Paladin. Paladin en-Vec and Fiendslayer Paladin are also things to consider.

June 12, 2016 5:27 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #11

@squidguy

Silverblade Paladin is better overall. Silverblade is 3 mana, allowing it to curve nicely after a 2-drop Knight or a leveled Student of Warfare and makes it easier to run 4 of them.

Kinsbaile Cavalier is also a very poor 4-drop. It's a 2/2 that dies to commonly played burn effects and isn't that great in combat with higher-toughness creatures. Not ideal as a White Weenie deck's curve-topper.

Paladin en-Vec and Fiendslayer Paladin don't offer anything relevant, even as sideboard cards. En-Vec is just a french vanilla 3-drop and Fiendslayer isn't that much better. And protection can be worked around with a handful of decks opting additional colours.

June 13, 2016 10:26 a.m.

Kaos_Kitty says... #12

With some Knight Exemplars out, Worldslayer becomes a pretty fun card.

June 18, 2016 5:12 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #13

@Kaos_Kitty

Worldslayer will never work. It would take two turns to play and equip it and then the equipped creature needs to be unblocked. Not to mention I'm spending 5 mana for a card that does absolutely nothing. It's way too slow and impractical to use.

June 18, 2016 6:17 p.m.

Kaos_Kitty says... #14

Thats okay, I thought I would mention it. I run it with Puresteel Paladin and Ancient Den, so in with my knights I pull it off rather often. I thought I would mention it for you though.

June 18, 2016 7:21 p.m.

This is a nice knights deck! How do you find Accorder Paladin, Silverblade Paladin and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar to work? I'm surprised you dont have any prot spells to to help protect the above two noted creatures due to their vulnerabilities - i.e. any quick creature token could trade with the accorder paladin. And have you found this Gideon to be a little slow? I feel like I would almost always prefer Gideon Jura for his +2, despite the extra mana cost. In my own knights deck, i've personally found Elspeth, Knight-Errant to be a strong planeswalker in that she is impactful enough when she comes onto the board. And even then I often find her to be too slow

June 18, 2016 7:54 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #16

@MetaphysicalxProdigy

Accorder Paladin - I like its higher power and battle cry, but it is the weakest Knight in the deck. If a more desirable 2-drop Knight ever shows up, Accorder gets cut for it immediately.

Silverblade Paladin - What's better than one double striker? Two. Silverblade curves very well after a 2-drop Knight or leveled Student of Warfare and two double strikers hit hard if left unanswered.

Gideon, Ally of Zendikar - He's is a combinations of three things:

  • A 2/2 Knight factory.
  • An indestructible 5/5 beatstick.
  • An irremovable Glorious Anthem.

No matter which of these he's currently playing as, he's doing something relevant. I don't find him slow. He's a lot faster than other Planeswalkers, especially if you take his ult ability into consideration.

Had protection spells before, but wasn't that impressed with them. Felt a little too conditional most of the time. I'd rather focus my spells on removal than tricks.

Gideon AoZ is a much better card than Gideon Jura. All 3 of Gideon AoZ's abilities are usable whenever you need them and build your board. He's also playable as a 4-of. Gideon J just gets himself killed with his +2 ability and is vulnerable to removal and deathtouch blockers as a creature. Gideon AoZ is a standalone threat. Gideon J is a 5-mana distraction.

I used Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a 2-of before. She's a good Planeswalker, but I hate how useless she is on an empty board and is completely dependent on a target without summoning sickness to function properly. She got dropped for Gideon AoZ as soon as he was printed.

June 18, 2016 10:30 p.m.

Hi Nensou,

Thank you for your reply! It looks like you have really put some time and thought into your build and choices. It's clear that you are going for speed and Silverblade Paladin + most things makes for a brutal combo. If your opponent doesn't pack much removal or have a resilient enough creature line you're going to be hard to stop. It essentially forces them to act and possibly change up their tempo to manage your advance. Very powerful, and builds momentum at a rate akin to Slivers and Merfolk. Strong against tron, many combo decks, probably hatebears and tokens as well.

Your Deck in a Competitive Format

What I think is a major weakness for this deck, however, is its generally unanswered fragility. I think that if you addressed this a little more you would make the deck more competitive while retaining the essence of its pressure.

One of the realities of Modern that a player cannot escape is efficient, well-costed removal. Since Modern began as a format, Lightning Bolt has been the most played card and to this day remains so, seen in 43.6% of decks (http://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards?f=MO&meta=51). Following this are Path, Terminate, Dismember, Liliana and the like. Of course not to mention Thoughtsieze and Inquisition, etc.

In my experience of playing knights, some of the hardest things to get around include (1) dodging bolt and other well-costed removal strategies (i.e. including 2-for-1 removal with Snapcaster), (2) a lack of card draw, and (3) winning the long game. First off, 20 of your 24 creatures come in between 1-3 toughness and you do not use any knights with protection abilities/high toughness (other than bladehold). There isn't anything inherently wrong with this, as you are going for a risk-reward strategy that is honest and upfront. But most of the Modern format preys on strategies like this and can pick apart your creature line.

Problems facing your Deck

First, you don't use Vial to allow for any dodging counters/fixing mana/combat tricks (i.e. flashing an Exemplar to protect against a killspell or a Silverblade to deal additional damage / grant first strike to a non-first striker, like Bladehold or Accorder Paladin). Second, you don't use Brave the Elements or a related spell to defend against killspells or allow your creature line to blow through to victory. And third, you don't have any "midrange"/"late game" cards to give you that extra push to finish your opponent, like a high-powered equipment or anthem. Hero of Bladehold is great for this with her 4 toughness, but she can be beat. Another vulnerability I think worth noting is the potential to be 2-for-1'ed with Silverblade Paladin - all your opponent has to do is removing the knight attacking alongside it and then block with a Young Pyromancer or Master of Waves token or two Lingering Souls tokens and that's it. Add to this a lack of any card draw and not much else to survive a game exceeding 8-10 turns and you have a rather linear aggro strategy.

Now, if you are looking to just use this as a pet deck for non-competitive settings, or for tabletop games with friends then that is fine. But knights do have the resources available as a tribe to be competitive, even Tier 1 and Tier 1.5 competitive, recognized as a high performance Rogue deck. In my view the strongest competitive knight lists are those G/W ones that use CoCo and KotR, but mono-white does have potential. To be competitive you will likely need to use cards like Vial, legendary equipment and/or anthems, and a versatile sideboard. If you wanted to build this deck in a more competitive direction it would require modifying your list a bit, and at the very least adding in some form of protection spells and/or card draw.

The Importance of Board Impact and your 4-drops

Generally speaking, though, I am curious about Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. You find him to be superior to Gideon Jura and a better suited card here than Elspeth, Knight-Errant. To me, he only really stands out for his ability to generate 2/2 knight tokens. His +1 doesn't increase his loyalty (and overall defense) as Elspeth's does by generating a token, and by becoming a creature he becomes vulnerable to removal like Path, Dismember, Vapor Snag, etc. Further he has summoning sickness the first turn he's down; thus in most cases it seems you want to open with his +0 ability unless you are desperate to nuke him right away for an anthem. As a result you need to wait a turn before he can become useful as a creature - and even as a creature he is just a bulky 5/5, swinging as early as Turn 5, and easily chumped by a token. I think he would improve with an anthem like Honor of the Pure, so that your knights may eventually be getting +2/+2 after you activate Gideon's ult.

Thus, to me he seems slow because he doesn't have a lot of impact when he hits the board. He either kills himself for a permanent HotP or creates a 2/2 token. Contrast this to Elspeth, who makes herself stronger by either producing a 1/1 chump token (which, in lieu of anthems, is what your 2/2 token seems like it will be doing most of the time), or by buffing out a creature, ideally a doublestriker. And as i've said before, I even find this to be slow.

I have made use of a little-known card called Light from Within to get around a plethora of issues that mono-white knights face as a tribe. It takes them out of bolt range, and allows you to play 4/4 first strikers that ultimately have more staying power and become a major problem for your opponent. Furthermore, the benefits of this 4-drop card are instantaneous; similar to how Kinsbaile Cavalier and Silverblade Paladin have a powerful impact on the board when they resolve. I actually used to use 2/2 creature + Silverblade + LfW to kill on T4 (T3 = 4 damage, T4 = 16 damage). If your deck truly is pure aggro, it may be worth incorporating the Light.

Other Card Rationales

If you are going the route of just pure creatures and removal, I think you would also benefit from something that can push the game over the edge. Whether this is Brave the Elements to run past your opponent's defenses or Sword of Fire and Ice to apply ridiculous pressure, you need one or two board "tilt" cards. Perhaps if you slightly modified your 3-drop slots you could add a single Kinsbaile Cavalier or Batterskull or even Wurmcoil Engine.

Accorder Paladin - I think he is dead weight and I would get rid of him ASAP. He has absolutely no staying power without an Exemplar or Silverblade. I would suggest either Knight of Meadowgrain or Leonin Skyhunter as immediately preferable. Meadowgrain works wonders to stall other aggro decks until they run out of steam, and if you are truly interest in just pure damage then the Skyhunter's evasiveness would couple well with soulbond. Do you ever find 4 Silverblades to be too many?

And with respect to Cavern of Souls: it would have more relevance in the competitive scene than Mutavault, IMO. You WANT to ensure your creatures are hitting the board, and without Vial to get them in you are completely at the mercy of a control deck taking its time with you. I see Remand and Mana Leak all the time. Mutavault, while inherently a ridiculously valuable card, doesn't have that much synergy with knights as would say, Merfolk. The only anthems come from Exemplar, a Gideon ult and a successful battle cry attack. It seems like most of the time it would be another 2/2. Cavern doesn't have much relevance against non-control decks, but when it does, it's very strong.

Conclusion

These are just my thoughts with a preliminary glance at your deck and my knowledge of how knights in a variety of approaches have fared in the format. I have not had time yet to playtest your list, nor have I actually had a chance to use Gideon, AoZ. Please feel free to take everything I have said with a grain of salt. I look forward to any comments you may have for my suggestions.

June 25, 2016 1 a.m.

NensouHiebara says... #18

@MetaphysicalxProdigy

Spoiler tagged to not stretch the page. Show

June 27, 2016 11:02 a.m.

Well, I think an important governing dynamic for any constructive exchange in deckbuilding is how far you are willing to take your deck. If you don't want to take it beyond the kitchen table or to your LGS then that's entirely your call. Much of my thinking about your list was predicated on battling decks that you will typically find in a modern meta. As I have absolutely no other criteria with which to gauge your deck, I don't think my advice can be helpful beyond mentioning cards or strategies you may not be aware of or may not have had a chance to fully appreciate.

Spoiler tag to avoid stretching the page Show

June 27, 2016 8:36 p.m.

mortilus says... #20

Guy at work used to have a deck like this. He used Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx to great effect since knights are heavy on devotion.

June 29, 2016 1:59 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #21

@MetaphysicalxProdigy

Spoiler tagged to not stretch the page Show



@mortilus

Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx doesn't work well in this deck.

  • It doesn't provide coloured mana normally. Most of my Knights require . Too many lands that don't produce coloured mana in the deck can cause mulligans of what could of been keepable hands.
  • I'd need at least three Knights and/or Gideon for it to provide enough mana to bother activating it. An aware opponent can keep me off of high devotion.
  • I have nothing aside from the set of Student of Warfare to dump the mana into. Student itself isn't really that ideal of a mana sink either.
  • It's Legendary. Additional copies of Nykthos in my hand would be mostly dead. It would never be a 4-of and less copies in the deck lowers its chance of appearing each game.
June 30, 2016 3 p.m.

Pyromancer999 says... #22

aether vial will significantly raise the power of this deck.PLAY 4!!!

August 24, 2016 5:16 p.m.

Pyromancer999 says... #23

also, cavern of souls naming knights

August 24, 2016 5:16 p.m.

Pyromancer999 says... #24

also, oblivion ring instead of banishing light, STRICTLY better

August 24, 2016 5:17 p.m.

NensouHiebara says... #25

@Pyromancer999

I have already stated my opinion on AEther Vial and Cavern of Souls in previous posts and in my Notable Exclusions list. Both of them are not worth it.

My creatures have too varied CMCs for AEther Vial to work porperly.

Cavern of Souls only functions against countermagic. Blue in Modern is underrepresented. Not to mention that this is a more Casual deck that wouldn't be matched up with anything with a significant amount of countermagic. It's also unable to provide coloured mana for Student of Warfare's level up ability and for casting noncreature spells.

Oblivion Ring isn't "strictly better" than Banishing Light. They both perform the same function for the exact same cost. I prefer Banishing Light's cleaner design over O-Ring's clunky dual triggers.

August 24, 2016 9:02 p.m.

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