Control-Oriented Generals
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 17, 2014, 7:47 p.m. by ducttapedeckbox
Now that my Nekusar, the Mindrazer project is well underway, I want to look for a side project to work on. I tend to gravitate towards control-oriented builds, but I want something a little different than a straight up control deck. So, I'm turning to the T/O community for suggestions!
I ran Damia, Sage of Stone for a while, but she didn't do it for me. I still love my Nekusar build, but I want something to play on untap/Cockatrice once in a while to change it up. I'd like the deck to avoid infinite combos and be kept under a moderately small budget (no FoW,JTMS, etc.). I started to think about a Crosis, the Purger build but it was just too similar to Nekusar.
Some other thoughts I had were Savra, Queen of the Golgari with Dictate of Erebos effects and toolbox Marath, Will of the Wild . I'm not a big red player, so I'd like the deck to avoid red. Most importantly, I want it to be fun to play and be an "unconventional" form of control (I'm going to leave that vague because I don't think I completely know what I mean).
So, TappedOut'ers. Suggestions? :)
ducttapedeckbox says... #4
I like Derevi, he's something I should consider. I'm not all too interested in Ertai though, I don't want to just counter everything left and right.
I should also mention that I want this to be for multiplayer.
I like Hokori, Dust Drinker , but that seems a little bit too mean. Is there something like him except multicolored? I guess Derevi is close to that..
August 17, 2014 8:23 p.m.
TheSilverBlade says... #6
Roon of the Hidden Realm is vicious with the right deck to back him up. Being able to bounce cards like Phyrexian Ingester , Solemn Simulacrum , and Brutalizer Exarch on a regular basis is broken.
August 17, 2014 9 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #8
Okay, good news: I found quite a bit of commanders that are control based, don't have red, and don't synergize with any infinite combos.
bad news: I found quite a bit of commanders that are control based, don't have red, and don't synergize with any infinite combos.
42, to be exact.
Any other limiters you can offer? (I have a feeling that you do not want a mono-color deck. I think that having at least one mono colored deck, one dual-colored deck, and one tri-colored deck in EDH can help a player become smarter and stronger of a player, but that's a discussion for another time maybe.)
August 17, 2014 9:16 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
Do you have a preference for color?
Bicolor would give you more directed control by allowing you to focus more on the individual counterspells and tax/stax effects.
Tricolor gives you more options, but it requires a more consistent land/rock quite and better resource management.
For control, BUG, Esper, Bant, Grixis, and RUG are all very good color combinations. Each has a different flavor and dominant strategy.
BUG supports infinite combos and goodstuff as wincons, and it provides a strong balance between ramp and draw.
Esper suffers slightly from the lack of green, so it relies on artifact ramp. However, it has access to many token and artifact combos as well as tutors and draw effects.
Bant balances removal, ramp, and counterspells for a strong control approach, but it needs to get a little more creative with its combos. It doesn't have black, which is a key combo color.
Grixis excels at stax approaches and has many attrition-oriented control cards. It suffers from limited ramp, but has draw and tutor power to help sustain longer games.
RUG has explosive ramp and creature-based combos, and it can be very fast if built properly. Animar, Soul of Elements is a top-tier combo general, and Riku of Two Reflections is also very strong.
August 17, 2014 9:25 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #10
Thanks for all of the suggestions everyone.
Let's see. Sen Triplets is a maybe.
I'm not a big fan of Bant in EDH, but I'll keep it open for something else. Roon isn't what I'm looking for; I'd go more with Derevi.
And phew, I saw a thread in which you dropped ~30 links to tribal decks you've made, MagicalHacker, glad you're going to limit it before posting. Not that I wouldn't appreciate the list, it would just be a lot go through in little time (moving back to school Tues/Wed). Anyways, I'll see if I can be more specific.
Just plain ole' countering spells bores me. I like Stax strategy-punishing opponents for taking actions. Maybe board lock down. I want to shy away from group slug if I do go with a stax strategy. I was looking along the lines of Golgari creature sacrifice, but that doesn't yield me with many (budget) options for non-creature removal. I would like to try to include white as well.
I'd be open to mono-white, but probably not any other mono-colored decks. Maybeee mono black or blue, but that's a maybe.
Does this help? Thank you again for all of the help!
August 17, 2014 9:31 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #11
Damn, missed your comment before posting my previous response Epochalyptik.
I want to shy away from red, but other than that I'm open to any color combination. The other shells for Grixis decks I've made all come too close to my Nekusar build in some form or another, so I think I'll be avoiding U/B/R in this one. I'd also like to note that my group is relatively casual. We play competitively among each other, but do so in a casual setting (does that even make sense?). Our house rules restrict infinite combos, infect, and abide by the ban list for the most part (if someone runs Sylvan Primordial or something and doesn't completely abuse his ability, nobody will have a problem).
I really enjoyed running Damia as my commander and the BUG combination, but the build I had and the most optimal builds (namely yours) seem to heavily run off of going infinite for a win, which I want to avoid. I think BUG, Bant, and Grixis are off the table right now for 3-color decks.
Currently I'm leaning towards a guild or mono-colored deck. I hope I've given enough detail and my expectations with this deck don't conflict with each other. Thank you for all of the suggestions!
August 17, 2014 9:41 p.m.
It costs a lot (nothing a little ramp can't fix) but Sisters of Stone Death has alays intrigued me
August 17, 2014 9:43 p.m.
miracleHat says... #13
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is great as a control general. gwaffle hazardous profiteer Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer is another one that normally runs on a pillowfort theme. Do any of those interest you?
August 17, 2014 9:45 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #14
I was thinking about her too, but the Sisters just cost too damn much. She is in green though so it's probably possible. But once she leaves play, she's already up to a two-digit price tag.
August 17, 2014 9:46 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #15
Me too! I've been drained of energy recently (lost my keys at home, looked for about a week, couldn't find them, school starts tomorrow), so I figured I'd try to be as thorough as I can by first trying to find out as much info as I could lol
This is what I got:
- Not a counterspell based commander
- Punish-for-taking-action / stax / tax / board lock down / repeating sacrifice
- Not group slug unless one of the above
- Has white (If you want, I can do another comment where this is "not white" if you don't find any you like in this comment)
This is great, because now I've limited it down to 7 decks. It's still not going to be a quick read-through, but when it comes to building EDH decks, I think you really ought to be pumped about your deck, you know?
If you want some explanations for each commander, let me know. Like I said, I'm rather emotionally tired from this week, but I'll be glad to write a paragraph about each one if you would prefer that.
Anyways, here they are:
August 17, 2014 9:48 p.m.
She does have a positively ferocious cost but like you said green is full of mana dorks and things like Utopia Sprawl plus since it'd be only 2 colors you'd be able to run devotion based ramp in the form of Karametra's Acolyte and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx fairly well (Depending on the build you could run Black Market as well)
August 17, 2014 9:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #17
Actually, BUG is a very good color combination even if you don't intend to run infinite combos. As I mentioned, BUG is suited to goodstuff approaches because you have access to cards like Grave Titan , Consecrated Sphinx , and many other individually strong cards. You don't have to run infinite combos; that simply happens to be the fastest and most reliable means of winning in multiplayer pods.
August 17, 2014 10:08 p.m.
Ijustliketolift says... #18
Still working on my deck, but Derevi, Empyrial Tactician ciphered with Hidden Strings with both Kismet and Stasis out. Derevi swings, untaps itself, an island and another card if need be.
Derevi, Life without Parole Playtest
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 2 | 2 COMMENTS | 363 VIEWSAugust 17, 2014 10:34 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #19
You've all given me some great ideas, I'll respond in depth tomorrow morning when I can compose a coherent post with the generals that I've narrowed it down to. Thank you everyone!
August 17, 2014 11:56 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #20
Azusa. Play mono-green control. It's a thing. Seriously.
August 18, 2014 3:10 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #21
@ MagicalHacker -- You've already done so much, no need to write more. Out of the ones you've listed, I'd be interested in Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker , Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Savra, Queen of the Golgari , and Gaddock Teeg . I've always thought about Hokori, Dust Drinker but I figured my group would hate me if I did that. Not sure how to limit my list down from here.
@ jwe94 -- That is true. Does anyone have experience with high costing generals? When I ran Damia with a CMC of 7, it wasn't too bad to get her out. But with the Stone Sisters, their ability is also mana intensive.
@ Epochalyptik -- True, but correct me if I'm wrong in assuming that good stuff decks usually come with a relatively high price tag. If it isn't, is there a general route you'd recommend following with a non-infinite Damia build? Out of the 3 current BUG legends, she'd be the only one I'm interested in running.
@ Ijustliketolift -- I'll take a look, but I don't think I'm interested in a Bant build right now.
@ NotSoLuckyLydia -- How does that work? Please elaborate! :)
August 18, 2014 11:29 a.m.
Well last night I started work on a ramping intensive build and it can generally get me enough mana by around turn 5 or 6 off of a decent hand , but I understand if between the cmc and activation costs it's just to expensive
August 18, 2014 11:39 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #23
Price depends, as always, on card choice. Some goodstuff cards are played in other formats, which means they're more expensive. Others are played primarily in EDH and are therefore less expensive.
RUG also does goodstuff pretty well because many good red creatures tend to be comparatively cheap, but you said you wanted to avoid red. Bant may be worth some consideration instead, as you get access to cards like Sun Titan , Knight of the Reliquary , and Medomai the Ageless .
August 18, 2014 1:06 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #24
You could build really effective control decks around Maralen of the Mornsong , Merieke Ri Berit , Angus Mackenzie , and Gaddock Teeg . Each would bring a different element, and allow unique deck builds and forms of control (or full oppression, if you are into that sort of thing).
August 18, 2014 3:03 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #25
Mono Green Control is the list I've been messing around with. It's a fun fun thing. For you. Not for anybody else! :P
August 18, 2014 3:16 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #26
If those are the four you want to consider, either goldfish with my decks or build a version for each that you like and goldfish with them that way. :D If you play cockatrice, you can always test them out that way and then build it irl once you know which you like the most. :)
August 18, 2014 6:59 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #27
@ jwe94 -- Hm, it's something that I'll still consider. I'm really having a tough time here deciding.
@ Epochalyptik -- Of course. I guess it isn't fair to completely rule out Bant, but I'm having a hard time of choosing a general that I would enjoy running.
@ HeroInMyOwnMind -- Ahh more choices. Thank you for the suggestions.
@ NotSoLuckyLydia -- That's very interesting, something else to put on the list. However, the Eldrazi titans and annihilator are another thing my house rules forbid. How much of a negative impact would this have on the deck?
@ MagicalHacker -- True. I'll have plenty of times in the week before classes start to play around.
I think I've limited my options to these, in no particular order:
- Azusa, Lost but Seeking
- Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker
- Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
- Savra, Queen of the Golgari
- Sisters of Stone Death
- Damia, Sage of Stone
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
- Gaddock Teeg
Ugh, such a long list. I have some toying to do. I know Damia and Dervei are relatively popular commanders, and I want to do something different, so they may be removed from this list rather quickly. Thank you everyone who has given suggestions and advice. If you have anything to sway in in favor (or away from) one of the commanders listed above, please let me know!
August 18, 2014 7:29 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #28
In Azusa, the biggest bonus to the titans are the tutor with a land. Other than that, if you cut them for something else big, like AOZ or something, you'll be fine.
August 18, 2014 8:03 p.m.
miracleHat says... #29
If you want to do something different, that immediately knocks off Derevi, Empyrial Tactician , Damia, Sage of Stone , Azusa, Lost but Seeking , and Grand Arbiter Augustin IV .
I have always had a soft spot for Gaddock Teeg , and that would be my vote for something a bit different (at least, i don't think that he is used that often).
August 18, 2014 8:09 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #30
I've been looking a lot into Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker . I can't really find much about her, which I like. How would decks around her run? Lots of tax effects and lifegain/life loss prevention and punishment with things like her and Purity ? I'm mostly missing how it would win, hah. Just beat down with white good stuff?
MagicalHacker, tagging you. I looked at yours and am going to spend a lot more time looking at it haha.
Gaddock Teeg and one of the Golgari legends are tied for second behind her right now.
August 18, 2014 8:55 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #31
Well with her, she hurts opponents that attack you. So you can further run cards that dissuade players from attacking you, which usually leads to them attacking each other. That's really all she does. :) I employ a lot of "creatures must attack" and giving opponents tokens, so that usually works. Because you will have some people who will be fine attacking through with their creatures, there are other combos like Darien, King of Kjeldor + Soul's Attendant effects, which is pretty funny the first time it happens.
Did you want any more information about any of the other generals?
I really have to input my opinion about commanders with a high converted mana cost (which ive defined as six or more). The problem isn't just that it's hard to get out, it's that it requires too much of an investment just to play a commander than can still be countered/removed, in which case more ramp is need, and more investment of resources is required, leading to a poor board presence in the end. Ramp shouldn't be a justification for running a commander, because that's going to lead to a weak, easily-destabilized deck. My two cents.
August 19, 2014 12:35 a.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #32
@ MagicalHacker -- I've somewhat followed that idea when creating a shell for the deck (Michiko Shell). I focused on preventing myself from being able to take damage (namely commander damage with Sigarda, Marath, and Prossh in my group). Not really sure if it'll work at all, but I figured it's worth a shot. I'm pretty set on making a solid Michiko shell right now, but if I decide to make another deck I'll ask for more information :)
While I don't want to turn this into a DH thread, I would really appreciate it if anyone could take a look at the deck to see if I have a good start. The deck is linked above. On a more general note, what should I focus on in a Michiko deck. I agree with what MH said above, but what do you think?
August 19, 2014 9:08 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #33
Sweet, just tag me in your post if you have a question directed at me, and I'll get the notification :D
August 19, 2014 9:26 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #34
To be fair, Azusa, Lost but Seeking isn't often used as a control general.
August 19, 2014 10:03 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #35
Very fair, NotSoLuckyLydia. It is definitely something that is on my list of future generals.
August 20, 2014 9:13 p.m.
The thought just occurred to me the other day but I personally don't see Thassa, God of the Sea used much and that seems fairly criminal to me, like just look at her
August 20, 2014 9:18 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #37
@ jwe94 -- Hmm, she'd be one royal pain in the ass. I can see that getting too control oriented though, with access to all of the counterspells.
miracleHat says... #2
Derevi, Empyrial Tactician tap/untap control + Flicker ?
Run stuff like Opposition + Intruder Alarm ?
August 17, 2014 8:08 p.m.