|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander 2017 (C17)||Rare|
|Commander 2015 (C15)||Rare|
|Mercadian Masques (MMQ)||Rare|
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Whenever a creature dies, put a charge counter on Black Market.
At the beginning of your precombat main phase, add to your mana pool for each charge counter on Black Market.
Price & Acquistion Set Price Alerts
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Black Market Discussion
2 days ago
I honestly tend to find Bottle Gnomes pretty relevant, as I often lose a lot of life, but I suppose I'm playing enough tutors now to where I can just grab Zulaport Cutthroat or something if that's really such a concern--I suppose I can cut him, though I will miss him.
I'm still kinda on edge about cutting Black Market --my meta is still fairly casual, but I have, in fact, won before with Exsanguinate thanks to all the mana from Black Market against a fairly competitive (but by no means optimized) Prossh, Skyraider of Kher deck (and some other peeps). I might find something else to cut for Pitiless Plunderer , but I'd rather not have to choose between both of them. (Also, something worth considering is that Black Market is harder to remove than Pitiless Plunderer , though they'd need exile effects or something in any case).
As for Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood , getting 10 mana isn't a problem for me, but I get what you're saying--it's not exactly the fastest combo available, and my deck probably doesn't slow the game down enough to make it competitively viable. All the same, there's just not that many better mono-black combos.
As for running more tutors and stax effects, well, for one, I actually still want this list to be playable in my meta (it's approaching a point where it's just too cancerous relatively to what the majority of everyone else is playing, believe it or not), so adding Trinisphere and Static Orb and the like would be very unsubtle and super cutthroat (though, yes, that's exactly what would make the deck more competitive, I understand that). Secondly, the list is getting pretty tight, yet again, so I'd probably have to cut some Shirei synergy for that sort of thing, which would probably be worth it, but would make me feel that much more soulless, honestly. Can never seem to strike that balance between not playing a whole bunch of staples and having a synergetic build...
Thirdly, while they'd absolutely be worth it, I'm not playing more tutors simply due to budget considerations. I know that might sound pretty laughable considering the deck costs $830 dollars, but it's the only list I have that I own in paper (well, most of it--waiting for more cards to arrive, as I keep cutting stuff), but I've been building it up over the course of 3-4 years. Budget is no object in cEDH, I know, but it is for me--the most expensive card in the deck is about $75. Spending $100 on a card isn't something I really want to do. I might find something to cut for Cruel Tutor , though (bad as it is).
As it stands, I think Liliana's Shade and Bottle Gnomes are out and Skittering Surveyor and Scroll Rack are in. A marginal improvement--still not good enough, though, you're right. If only I could run Land Tax + Scroll Rack ...
(Oh, and, on a completely unrelated note, this might already be a thing, but I was wondering if anyone had figured out a way to combo out with Timestream Navigator in a Prime Speaker Vannifar list. All you'd need is a 1-drop that recurs itself to either your hand or the battlefield, and, so long as you had enough mana and the city's blessing, you could take infinite turns. That might actually be a viable combo in cEDH).
2 days ago
NoOneOfConsequence shirei is one of the best recursion engines (so if you're beating a dead horse, at least we can expect it from a Shirei player). He provides significant advantage, provided you play an efficient & synergistic gameplan.
Liliana's Shade is 4 mana to tutor for a swamp every turn. Neat, but still it's 4 mana - unless you're going balls to the wall on 28-30 lands, I can't see how this is great for you, as it's an inefficient Skittering Surveyor . You have no other Swamp cards that I can see, therefore no reason to actually run the card in place of a more efficient version.
Black Market is great turn by turn, but pound for pound it's worse than Pitiless Plunderer , as with plunderer you make mana the same turn. Black market requires you to wait an entire turn-cycle before it does anything - and in those 3 turns you're not holding up mana to respond to all of your opponent's threats - basically gambling with the hope of a payoff on your turn.
Sanguine Bond & Exquisite Blood together are 10 mana to win. Flash-hulk is 2 mana. Exsanguinate & Torment of Hailfire are at least 15 each & they don't certify a win as you have no way to make unbounded mana.
Leyline of the Void is unavoidable in this build, as your win con is not coming out until late game, and any hulk deck will win first.
It's admirable that you've found so many creatures that synergise with shirei to hurt your opponents turn by turn. But here, a lot of these are redundant. In a stax deck you need many more ways to hurt your opponent decks. Including Trinisphere , Sphere of Resistance , Winter Orb , would all help your gameplan.
You could use Praetor's Grasp - as it's likely to find a card that will actually win you the game & it's a stax piece.
There are a lot of issues with your list - those t3 decks are usually decks that are unproven (imo). Your shirei deck still needs a lot of refinement for tier 3 to Deem Worthy .
I could go on about many of the other options in your Shirei build, but maybe you should re-read the comments section. I made sure to put a healthy set of options in there for you to consider several days ago.
I'd recommend doing some solid research into the cEDH meta and how cutthroat every design decision needs to be. I think there's a discord called playEDH, or look for some cEDH decks to test against. You'll find out very fast that your shirei build may be good in some metas, but in cEDH it is not enough.
3 days ago
Not to beat a dead horse, but I thought I'd bring up Shirei again (and my deck specifically, The Recursion Nightmare), just because I've actually changed it around a fair bit since last time. Workhorse , Harvester of Souls , Heap Doll , Myr Sire , Diabolic Revelation , Homeward Path , Mindslaver , Arcbound Reclaimer , Sorin Markov , Dictate of Erebos , and Coffin Queen are all out in favor of Midnight Reaper , Mausoleum Secrets , Skyscanner , Dusk Legion Zealot , Sensei's Divining Top , Cabal Stronghold , Petrified Field , Burglar Rat , Liliana of the Veil , Sanguine Bond , and Exquisite Blood .
The wincons are stronger, the mana curve is lower (and more balanced), the cabal-tron package is now super-redundant (with Cabal Coffers , Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth , Vesuva , Deserted Temple , Petrified Field , Cabal Stronghold , and Expedition Map ), the stax effects are stronger, and the utility spells are cheaper. I'd say the deck has gotten at least 12% better, which, admittedly, goes against what I said ealier about the deck being almost perfect (though, in my defense, I hadn't yet taken a good look at some of the cards they've been printing recently--that's the great thing about Shirei, he only gets better the more worthless black commons they release).
I might take out the sanguine bond + exquisite blood wincon for Desecrated Tomb and Torment of Hailfire . Desecrated Tomb is more value, but obviously not really a wincon unless things are going way too well for me, and Torment of Hailfire isn't nearly as straightforward as Exsanguinate , but they might be better, anyhow.
Also, I still stand by Damnation --especially now that I'm playing Midnight Reaper and Dusk Legion Zealot , my life total is kind of a precious resource--sure, toxic deluge might be worth it anyhow, but it also kills my commander (read: I get my board state back after a damnation), so it's not strictly worse--though, I might consider playing deluge over Oblivion Stone , even though that card is my one way of dealing with problem enchantments, for instance.
Oh, and, I considered adding Pitiless Plunderer , but, again, the list is really tight, and I'd rather have Black Market over him, as I don't need more than one color of mana, the mana from Black Market accumulates, and it triggers whenever anything dies (relevant with Grave Pact ).
There are probably still better Shirei decks out there that still wouldn't qualify him for tier 3, but, frankly, even given a casual glance, tier 3 could easily be split up into multiple tiers (or just not have so many commanders crammed in it, and maybe we add a new bottom tier). I mean, Ghost Council of Orzhova and Ambassador Laquatus probably shouldn't be in the same category as Aminatou, the Fateshifter and Oloro, Ageless Ascetic , for instance. All the same, just in case these somehow weren't already obvious, let me detail a few of the more interesting interactions Shirei has with some of the dorks in this deck:
Mesmeric Fiend has an O-ring trick going on where, if we sacrifice him before his first ability resolves, the second ability triggers and does nothing, then we exile a card from our opponent's hand permanently. Doing that every turn with a sac outlet can be pretty good, and if you do it for long enough, you'll have everyone topdecking. I used to play Brain Maggot in this vein, but later learned that that works differently--it's all wrapped up into one ability, so if he dies before it resolves, during resolution, we take a card, the game sees that it's dead, then we immediately return it to their hand. Not very good, obviously.
Coffin Queen has a slightly different but effectively equivalent O-ring trick--if she's sacrificed before her ability resolves, the ability resolves, but since she's dead, the game doesn't remember her as an object and the delayed trigger of the ability can never happen, so we keep the creature permanently. When Coffin Queen comes back, she is, of course, a new object with a different timestamp.
Oh, and, in case this one wasn't obvious, cards like Mindless Automaton work with Shirei because their power is 1 or less when they enter the graveyard, thus triggering Shirei's ability, and their power doesn't become more than 1 until they've already entered the battlefield, as per layering rules.
6 days ago
NoOneOfConsequence I actually did playtest your deck once (I know, it isn't a great sample size by any means), yet many cards are an issue. I apologize, I really want to like a deck you post, just to not make this a dramafest, but I can't say a bad deck is good. Damnation and Wrath don't need to be put into the deck at all.
Here is a full list of cards that are particularly overpriced, and where each card I think is bad or could be better fits, if you truely believe that I can't evaluate it fairly:
Doomwake Giant - Interesting repeatable board wipe, a meta-dependent inclusion though, not good for the average cEDH meta, but does have a place in some lists. I'd drop, but could imagine many arguments for it's inclusion.
Ghostly Prison - anti-attacks, which just rarely comes into play outside of kiki-lines and the sort, a strange meta-dependent inclusion, but I coudl much less justify this one.
Karmic Justice - Cool card, but often enchantment removal comes in the form of bounce or exile, and so this effect feels very off.
Vindicate - 3 mana remove 1 thing is a lot of wasted mana, easy drop.
No Mercy - Really a lot of attack-hate, strange for a stax list with a commander that generates blockers. Easy drop at a 4 mana do nothing enchantment.
Knowledge Pool - I get the Eidolon of Rhetoric / Rule of Law combo with it, but many decks have better value engines than Daxos, or can respond by killing one of the pieces, or can kill Daxos. These make this combo rarely an easy way to finish the game, requiring a ton of setup/backup that survives the lock. I think better options exist.
Sigil of the Empty Throne - A slow, 5 mana do nothing enchantment, it takes forever to get this going, easy drop.
Sphere of Safety - This much creature-attack hate? How much do you need? 1 card is often too much with Daxos in the CZ, but you run... including sweepers... like 11? Wow. Your meta must be all Edric and Blood Pod, maybe 1 Kess Twin, nah, just all Edric decks.
Black Market - maybe in a meta with 50 Edric decks. Outside of that, easy drop.
Land Tax - should run the Geddon/Ravages package or leave this out.
Mesa Enchantress - Slow card draw on a weak creature is just removal bait, this deck has better cards for the slot. Harder drop.
Phyrexian Arena - A lot of math goes into why this card is generally pretty bad. Inefficient and weak in most circumstances, and needs almost 5 unimpeded turns to get enough value to be okay. Better cards for the slot.
Cabal Coffers - big mana, not worth it outside of ANS.
Vesuva - copying a land to enter tapped leaves you in a lack of mana. Weak card.
Command Beacon - easy drop, weak card.
Deserted Temple - Easy drop, weak card.
Strip Mine - Good card, not here.
Temple of Silence - scry is weak when you lose due to not having mana, easy drop
Kor Haven - Easy Drop, never gonna use that ability
Plains x4 - Not great at Fixing
New inclusions (Total drops are at 42)
Base inclusions: Fellwar Stone , Prismatic Lens , Thought Vessel , Everflowing Chalice , Caves of Koilos , Command Tower , City of Brass , Mana Confluence , Exotic Orchard , Cavern of Souls , Gemstone Caverns , Gemstone Mine , and Tarnished Citadel
Total real cards left to put in: 29
Thorn of Amethyst , Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , Trinisphere , Tangle Wire , Sphere of Safety , Damping Sphere , Fragmentize , Aura of Silence , Dismember , Lotus Petal , Dark Ritual , Kataki, War's Wage , Crucible of Worlds , Bottomless Pit , Oppression , Liliana of the Veil , Static Orb , Linvala, Keeper of Silence , Ethersworn Canonist , Aven Mindcensor , Torpor Orb , Planar Void , Grafdigger's Cage , Ensnaring Bridge (just for your meta), Dark Confidant , Containment Priest , Chalice of the Void , Sanctum Prelate , Alms Collector
That would be the deck.
6 days ago
Nope. This deck is pretty dead to combo, running really little good interaction and a bunch of dead cards or overpriced cards like Call to the Grave , Damnation , and Wrath of God . Also, wincons like Sigil of the Empty Throne are weak and overpriced. I am not a fan of Sanguine Blood combo, however it isn't the worst, but your commander doesn't happen to synergize well with the deck, so it feels really clunky.
BTW when your ramp isn't immediate, doesn't fix colors, and is 5 mana and requires you to sacrifice creatures or hope to god an opponent runs them, your deck isn't tuned ( Black Market for my cEDH friends who don't know of this card, don't worry, it is jank tech to the extreme!)
1 week ago
Yeah for Kess there would be a couple cards you can cut. High CMC instants or sorceries are fine as you can at least cast them later on with Kess, but other high CMC spells I would cut.
Here are some possible cuts I would consider:
- Black Market
- Swarm Intelligence
- Fury Storm
- Echo Storm
- In Garruk's Wake
- Diabolic Revelation
- Decree of Pain
- Blatant Thievery
- Cruel Ultimatum - If you really like this card keep it as it's funny
Hope that helps :)
1 week ago
- Pitiless Plunderer
- Kessig Cagebreakers
- Whiptongue Hydra
- Izoni, Thousand-Eyed
- Kokusho, the Evening Star
- Wood Elves
- Night Incarnate
- A single Swamp
- The Gitrog Monster
- Diabolic Intent
- Spore Frog
- Black Market
- Protean Hulk
- Cabal Coffers
Simply put, to speed up win condition tutoring and comboability of the deck (if that isnt a word, it is now!).