Would a White Version of Stifle Be Acceptable?
General forum
Posted on Feb. 24, 2021, 7:12 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
Counterspells are almost entirely blue, but some rare non-blue counterspells do exist, with Tibalt's Trickery being the most recent example of such a spell.
Usually, non-blue counterspells are much more limited or specific in their function than are blue counterspells, so I feel that a white version of Stifle would be perfectly acceptable. Mark Rosewater has said that white usually makes spells more expensive to cast, whereas blue outright counters them, but I see no problem with a white equivalent of Stifle , especially given the existence of several white counterspells, already.
What does everyone else say about this? Would a white version of Stifle be acceptable?
I'm going to say no. As it counters abilities not spells
February 24, 2021 7:58 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #4
It would be something like counter target ability unless an opponent pays or instead they draw a card/search for a land. White can do anything it just needs to be fair in the way it does it.
February 24, 2021 8:28 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #6
I think it'd be fine. A way to make the card itself more playable could be to make it modal. Mana tithe for abilities, or maybe fetch a basic plains?
February 24, 2021 9:52 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #7
Almost all counterspells in white are colorshifted versions of blue spells: ( Mana Tithe -> white Force Spike , Rebuff the Wicked and Dawn Charm -> white variations of Turn Aside , Lapse of Certainty -> expensive white version of Memory Lapse ), originating from Conflux and Planar Chaos, which are exempt from following the rules of the color pie because of lore reasons. The one exception being Illumination , being specifically limited to the same targets as Disenchant , but answering them on the stack instead of in play, combined with a similar downside as Swords to Plowshares .
So in the next set where color functionality gets scrambled? Sure, print another white counterspell, maybe we can get a white Stifle , or maybe a white Spell Swindle this time, to fall in line with Smothering Tithe .
But my internal reasoning says: to counter a spell, you'd need a lot of knowledge about magic, be a wizard that has seen and done enough magic to recognize on the fly what spell is used against him, and prepare an according response before it's too late. That doesn't feel white at all, white is all about setting up and enforcing rules to prevent bad stuff from happening before it actually happens. And if that fails, White's way of preventing the bad stuff is by Gods Willing or a battalion of soldiers' Unbreakable Formation , just defending what you have, unable to offensively mess with your opponent's magic. Which Stifle very much does.
I'd say white can already counter plenty of triggered abilities though, mainly through Hushbringer , Tocatli Honor Guard and Hushwing Gryff . Again, enforcing rules before the bad stuff happens, instead of fighting it just before it's too late.
February 24, 2021 9:53 p.m.
plakjekaas - I had neglected to notice to preemptions of White, for I saw the colour laterally as merely bearing denial and not anticipatory response.
February 24, 2021 10:48 p.m.
Mcat1999 - 'Tis 2021. Everything must say Planeswalker .
February 25, 2021 4:16 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #10
I don't fully agree with the flavor text, but the card is probably fine to see fringe play in commander at .
February 25, 2021 6:53 a.m.
I don't think so there's any problem with the white color.
February 27, 2021 2:23 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #12
Whoops that's a kettle of fish that we've already fried into oblivion
February 27, 2021 2:34 a.m.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #13
The flavor text gives me vibes of one of Rorschach's monologs from 'The Watchmen'..
February 27, 2021 7:27 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #14
Mcat1999 except that a corrupt emperor who oppresses the masses for its own benefits is not white in philosophy. Selfishness at the expense of others is as black as it gets. Masses of commonfolk rebelling to uphold the laws broken by a corrupt government, those are the white party in the conflict.
The emperor perfoming a ritual to obtain omnipotence, and the valiantly defying masses rising up against him to Cancel the conjured magic, and restore law & order back to the world, that's the flavor of a white Stifle . That's why white has so many weenies with rule-imposing static effects, the little guy upholding the law and ensuring the silly blue, black, red and green Mages obey. That's why they're supposed to be symmetrical effects like on Leonin Arbiter , Tocatli Honor Guard and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben , because nobody is above the law, especially not yourself. That's why I think your flavor text would fit a colorshifted - Stifle , and not really a one.
What you're doing is translating your own interpretation of game mechanics, as they are, into color philosophy, by what you think the intended purpose was behind a card like Armageddon ; Instead it should be the other way around, letting established color philosophy guide the design process of the (flavor of the) card.
From the article on Colors found at MTG Wiki:
White
White puts value in the group, the community, and its civilization as a whole. White believes that suffering is a by-product of individuals not prioritizing the good of the group. White's ultimate goal is peace—a world where there is no unnecessary suffering, a world where life is as good as it can be for each individual, a world where everyone gets along and no one seeks to disturb the bonds of unity that White had worked so long to forge. To govern and protect its community, White makes use of and puts value in a number of broad concepts; morality (ethics, grace, truth), order (law, discipline, duty), uniformity (conformity, religion), and structure (government, planning, reason). White is a color commonly associated with good and justice, but if left unchecked or if everyone is not working toward the same unified goal, White can become authoritarian, inflexible, and capable of sacrificing a small group for the sake of a larger one. Everything necessary to preserve the laws, rules, and governance that White created.
I really cannot rhyme these described motivations with a corrupt Emperor oppressing its nation's people, that's why I don't agree with this being the flavor text for a white card as is, no matter how politically relevant the metaphor.
February 27, 2021 12:40 p.m.
I think you could see such a card if it had a very low tax component, akin to Mana Tithe . I would not expect such a card in a Standard set, but I don’t think it is completely outside the realm of possibility.
plakjekaas - I think you have a flawed view of White. White’s primary goal is not Peace; it’s order. It will use any means to establish order, including violence and oppression. White has the propensity to be the most evil of all of Magic’s colors - an unmitigated quest for absolute order over everyone; not just a simple focus on the individual in charge having power, as is Black’s goal.
The problem is that Wizards takes a boring, limited view of White. While Wizards has, in the past, had mono-White villains, sometime they decided to be lazy with the color’s morality and equate White with good and Black with evil. It’s bad writing that doesn’t encapsulate all the nuance it could, and Wizards really should try to branch out into the greater shades of each color’s moral potential.
February 27, 2021 1:16 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #16
Caerwyn I quoted my source, and that source quotes this article from the head designer of MtG, so you might think my view is flawed, but at least it's consistent with the way magic cards are created, which is probably relevant in this discussion.
On top of that, I'm not sure if you can distinguish order from peace, if you enforce order in the proportions of your evil white example. When all citizens obey and uphold the law, after it has been violently implemented, there's no room left for conflict, especially no violent conflict, as that would violate the established order. If you crack down hard on violations of order, you're doing it in the name of peace, of ending conflict.
You can fight for peace like the Avengers, or fight for peace like Thanos or Ultron. It's possible I refused to see the flavor text's portrayed conflict as a white vs white one, because the masses who rise up to an emperor, would do so to improve the situation for the many, even at the cost of their own safety. The good of the many outweighing the needs of the individual is a textbook example of white, a lot more so than an oppressive emperor.
Alright then, my second objection to Mcat1999 's suggested flavor text: quenching an uprising feels a lot more like an example of Mandate of Peace , than a Stifle . The masses rising from the slums, raising swords feels like a depiction of the combat step, way more than the activated ability of a creature or planeswalker.
February 27, 2021 2:44 p.m.
If you look at the color pie philosophy wheel Wizards published a while back, Wizards considers Order to be a larger part of White's color pie than peace. Wizards' focus was on addressing White's desire for Order and its focus on its own insular view of morality; even if such a moral code would be anathema to what might traditionally be considered moral.
So, while MaRo is a decent source--he is not the end-all-be-all of the discussion. For all his many beneficial traits, imagination is not one of them. I give MaRo a lot of credit for the game's current state--but he does deserve some fault for stagnating what the colors could be. White has suffered the most under his guidance--he, like you, lacks the imagination to see what White could be. There have been other casualties of MaRo's lack of imagination--Red/White cards always do the same aggressive thing because MaRo can't see a vision for Red/White that is distinct from the Boros legion.
As for absolute order creating peace... one just has to look at the totality of history to know that is a silly assertion. Throughout all eras of history, the imposition of absolute order never becomes absolute. Tyranny of a certain philosophy never results in a true hegemony in belief--there is always conflict, and those seeking to impose their world view through force must continue to use force to maintain order. That simply is not peace; it's subjugation.
February 27, 2021 3:40 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #18
Several users have mentioned Mana Tithe , the white version of Force Spike , but I would like to see a white version of either Spell Pierce or Mana Leak , as those would be awesome, but would that be too strong of a color bend?
February 27, 2021 4 p.m.
Grubbernaut says... #19
I could see Pierce, perhaps. Leak is too far of a stretch; white should only have conditional counters, imo.
February 27, 2021 4:46 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #20
Grubbernaut, I agree with that, and, on that subject, at the risk of starting a heated debate, I still believe that Red Elemental Blast , Pyroblast , and Guttural Response are acceptable because of how limited they are.
February 27, 2021 7:39 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #21
Caerwyn "As for absolute order creating peace... one just has to look at the totality of history to know that is a silly assertion. Throughout all eras of history, the imposition of absolute order never becomes absolute. Tyranny of a certain philosophy never results in a true hegemony in belief--there is always conflict, and those seeking to impose their world view through force must continue to use force to maintain order. That simply is not peace; it's subjugation."
Of course this is true, because in the totality of history, there has never been a mono white society established. Even though they're a representative tribe for white, Humans come in all colors and there's too many conflicting worldviews, especially in real life Humans. So the imposition of worldviews of order may have been totalitarian, but if your subjects don't share the same focus on order, then absolute order, and therefore peace, hasn't been and can't be established, just as we saw happen in history.
Idoneity says... #2
This is an odd subset within the game, as it is an effect sparsely seen yet widely known.
Blue is obviously the head of this ability, as demystified by bearing the namesake, yet Green actually has a few cards of it. Bind from Invasion is the only one that deviates from the stipulation of artifacts, the rest being Brown Ouphe , Ouphe Vandals , and Rust .
White only has Ayesha Tanaka , yet she is both Blue and restrained to artifacts. Wizards of the Coast did not have much of a grasp of the colour pie in Legends, meseems.
Like so many effects that could have been White, the Green part of the game takes it. It makes perfect sense for White to have this ability, as the colour does not only tax but outright denies (see Grand Abolisher , Leyline of Sanctity , Rest in Peace ), yet it does not.
February 24, 2021 7:57 p.m.