MANY questions about both my current decks...

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on July 11, 2018, 2:26 p.m. by BMHKain

Since my previous version of this thread was deleted, I'll be brief about it...

First Question.

1: First, I use Final Fortune as imprinted on Isochron Scepter, or on an already used Last Chance or Warrior's Oath.

2: I play Apocalypse.

3: I then respond to Apocalypse with Teferi's Protection.

4: Finally, I use Sundial of the Infinite to end the turn.

Is this legal even if Sundial can be responded to?

2: Does casting something with Rocks trigger Paradox Engine to untap aforementioned rocks (Or Mana Dorks?)?

3: How come my Boros Deck has no Competitive Meter even though I checked it?

4: Does Tutoring a permanent via Planar Bridge while Paradox Engine is in play untap the rocks/dorks as well as Planar Bridge?

5: Let's say I play Ancient Tomb. I tap it for , but I use only one of such mana at time; say for both Sol Ring & Mana Vault. Is this allowed, or did I waste the Ancient Tomb for a one drop? Same for any leftover mana for Rocks & Dorks?

6: Let's say I have Captain Sisay, Thran Temporal Gateway & Paradox Engine alongside some rocks. If I Tap Captain Sisay to search for a Legendary Permanent, can I use the Rocks/Dorks to Tap Thran Temporal Gateway and put the Legend on the field, triggering Paradox Engine to untap everything used in the process as a result?

7: If I have Sliver Queen in play, a Paradox Engine, & a Sol Ring, can I tap Sol Ring for a sliver token, thus untaping Sol Ring via Paradox Engine, thus doing an infinite loop?

8: (This is Similar to Q1.) If I have Ral Zarek, Venser, the Sojourner, Doubling Season, Decree of Annihilation, & Teferi's Protection: If Doubling Season is already in play, & I play Ral Zarek, thus doubling it's loyalty, I use his Ultimate & end up with at least 1 Head, then use Venser, the Sojourner's +2 to blink him, then play Decree of Annihilation, & respond to that with Teferi's Protection, Do I get all my stuff, as well as some outside stuff back? For Question 1, should I use a Vedalken Orrery for Flash?

9: In this Decklist:

I don't believe Archangel Avacyn  Flip is a good fit as a Boros Commander for Stax/Hatebears. Any ideas for a more fitting example, based on this list?

Thanks in advance! :)

(Update: revised the order of Question 1. Talk about Lesson 5. Dunno the reference? Hint: Part 5 of this Anime is filled with hype, but this is from Part 7; no anime there yet though...)

cdkime says... #2

This is poorly written and a bit unclear. Do you put all of the items on the stack at the same time? Are you letting some resolve before others go on the stack? You do not "use Sundial of the Infinite on another card, so that part of the question makes no sense. Further, you imply two sorceries (Warrior's Oath and Last Chance are being used at instant speed.

My understanding is you want to cast apocalypse, cast Teferi's Protection while Apocalypse is on the stack, activate Final Fortune while both those are on the stack, then activate Sundial of the Infinite while all are on the stack?

This will not work at all. Here is why:

  • Apocalypse is put on the stack.

  • Teferi's Protection is put on the stack. Stack now has Apocalypse first, Teferi's second.

  • Final Fortune is put on the stack. It is third.

  • Sundial of the Infinite goes on the stack fourth.

  • Sundial is the last on the stack, so it resolves first. The turn ends, the other abilities are automatically exiled and never resolve.

Yes. Paradox Engine triggers whenever a spell is cast.

The Competitive Meter is currently not showing up at all for new decks. No idea why, but you are not the only one having this problem.

July 11, 2018 3:52 p.m. Edited.

Paradox Engine is busted. And yes, if you tap and use a Sol Ring (for example) to cast a Mind Stone, Paradox Engine will trigger and untap Sol Ring (along with all other tapped nonland permanents you control).

Apocalypse would need to be cast first, then cast Teferi's Protection in response to your own Apocalypse. Tidbit of insight on this interaction, you would probably be best off holding priority and then casting Teferi's Protection before you allow the other players to respond, because once you pass priority, if no one responds, then you will not get a chance to cast Teferi's Protection and you will lose all your permanents and cards in hand.

Isochron Scepter with the aforementioned extra turn cards works well with Sundial of the Infinite, but the proper way to go about doing this combo is as such:

  1. Activate Scepter, cast extra turn spell for free
  2. Continue with your turn
  3. When you are entering the End Step of that turn, activate Sundial
  4. Rinse and Repeat

Now this combo is kind of fragile. Especially if they remove Sundial via Krosan Grip or something of that nature, because then you will just LOSE the game.

Best of luck.

July 11, 2018 4:12 p.m.

DespairFaction says... #4

As a Boros player I am deeply offended about the competitive meter.

I played a similar deck on my channel that uses Sunforger Mistveil Plains with Final Fortune and Angel's Grace to loop for infinite turns. Check it out here if you'd like

July 11, 2018 4:32 p.m.

BMHKain says... #5

@cdkime: Well, I might have a use for Apocalypse on my other deck; but I was going to see if I can find something in it's stead: Currently Perilous Vault. Any thoughts on this?

July 12, 2018 8:58 a.m.

cdkime says... #6


My thoughts remain the same - you need to reword your question before it makes any sense and more feedback can be provided. As written it is incredibly vague and nonsensical. There is an interaction between Teferi's Protection and Perilous Vault/Apocalypse. There is an interaction between Final Fortune et al. and Sundial of the Infinite. But I don't see your logic in trying to link them all together as the question seems to suggest.

Edit: If you are just asking about the Teferi's Protection and Perilous Vault interaction, Apocalypse seems the stronger choice, particularly if you have another way to fill your hand or graveyard synergies. After all, you will remove their entire manabase, in addition to their other permanents.

July 12, 2018 9:14 a.m. Edited.

BMHKain says... #7

@cdkime: I wonder how many friends I will lose via Apocalypse + Teferi's Protection ... Px

Anyways, just added a fourth question to decide if I should have either Planar Portal or Planar Bridge...

That said, just rewritten the steps of how the combo works. If that's not good enough still, let me know. Until then, I'm working on my Superfriends Deck after all this...

July 12, 2018 10:31 a.m.

cdkime says... #8

That is what I thought you meant and what I responded to in my first post.

This is close to what I thought you meant in my initial response, but somehow even more nonsensical. You are activating Sundial of the Infinite while three items are on the stack. It will resolve first, and all three items will immediately be exiled.

This means you (a) cast an Apocalypse that you exiled prior to resolving, wasting five mana; (b) cast a Teferi's Protection that you exiled prior to resolving, wasting two mana; and (c) used your Isochron Scepter, exiling the spell it produced before it resolved.

Also, you can't cast either sorcery at this time--you still have items on the stack.

Or, did you mean you let Apocalypse and Teferi's protection resolve, then tried to do the rest?

That would not work. Even if you floated the mana for casting spells after Apocalypse resolved (remember, all your lands and mana rocks would have phased out), you would still (a) have no cards in your hand and (b) a phased out, and thus unusable, Isochron Scepter. Not to mention Sundial would be phased out as well.

July 12, 2018 10:49 a.m. Edited.

cdkime says... #9

To follow-up, there is a way to get this to work as you intend.

Tap for 5 mana to activate Perilous Vault. Tap for 3 more mana to cast Teferi's Protection.

Before Teferi's protection resolves, you will need to float 2 red mana - put 2 mana into your mana pool without using it.

Let the stack resolve. You and your opponents have no nonland permanents. You still have 2 red mana.

Cast one of your extra turn cards from your hand with the floating mana.

Sundial of the Infinite has to be activated during your end step of the next turn, while the "you lose the game" trigger is on the stack. This will exile the "you lose the game" ability.

July 12, 2018 10:58 a.m.

So the correct sequence to make all this happen would be 1. Have Isochron in play with final fortune imprinted. 2. Have sundial in play. 3. Activate isochron, for an additional turn. Play Apocalypse, play teferi's protection while on the stack. 4. On second turn, you phase in. Activate isochron again if youd like, and use sundial before the lose the game trigger.

So there is a way to make that combo work. But you should also consider that if you have iscohron, final fortune, sundial you already have infinite turns which makes apocalypse and teferi's not really needed. You should already be able to win from infinite turns.

July 12, 2018 11 a.m.

BMHKain says... #11

@cdkime & DespairFaction: ...


(Infects space-time with (A certain disease that will be a very serious problem if mentioned here, despite being classic internet humor.) & facepalms thyself an infinite amount of times.)

I be sooooo damned at my mistake regarding this. Thank you, Despair Faction. I'll just rewrite the combo in your suggestion to see if it can work instead... Sorry about all the trouble regarding Q1... But what to do about Q4?

July 12, 2018 11:14 a.m.

cdkime says... #12

Planar Bridge does not cause you to cast the tutored card - the card goes directly onto the battlefield without having ever been on the stack.

Thus, abilities that trigger on the cast (either of permanents you own, like Paradox Engine or of the creature being tutored for) will not trigger. Enter the battlefield abilities, on the other hand, will still trigger

July 12, 2018 11:23 a.m.

BMHKain says... #13

Alright. Then It's Planar Portal in my deck in the aforementioned's stead. Thanks.

July 12, 2018 11:41 a.m.

BMHKain says... #14

Revised Question 1, & added 2 new questions. Any answers, please?

July 13, 2018 8:55 a.m.

BMHKain says... #15

Even more questions needing answers. Does anyone have thus?

July 13, 2018 11:43 a.m.

BMHKain says... #16

So... Are you going to help, cdkime? I have a lot of questions unanswered... X/

July 13, 2018 12:35 p.m.

cdkime says... #17

Must I remind you again of the virtues of patience, and how incredibly frustrating it is when you spam follow-ups? Just because someone is taking longer than you want does not mean they will not get to it.

Question 1:

This will not generally work. You will either have phased out your Sundial of the Infinite or will have discarded it, had it been in your hand. I am sure you can find a way to float mana/abuse the stack to make this work, but it would be really complicated, and involve you giving spells flash.

Question 4:

No, this will not work. It clearly says Paradox Engine triggers on the cast; and clearly says Planar Bridge puts the card directly onto the battlefield. Since the card is never cast, it never triggers Paradox Engine.

Question 5:

The mana would go away if you did not use it before the phase ended. That doesn't mean it is a waste of mana though - if you need to generate mana, you need to generate mana. You still end up managing to cast your spell, even if you do not use all the mana in your mana pool.

Interesting historical sidenote: Back when I started playing, there was a punishment for not using all the mana in your mana pool - you suffered 1 damage for each unspent mana in your mana pool when phases end - this was called "Mana Burn." It was removed from the game with Magic 2010.

Question 6:

No. For the same reason this will not work in Question 4. Placing something on the battlefeild is not the same as casting it. The item moves directly from your hand onto the battlefield, without ever going on the stack. As such, Paradox Engine will not trigger.

Question 7:

No. Sliver Queen's ability is an activated ability - it is not a spell being cast.

Question 8:

Here's what will happen in order:

  • You get your extra turn.
  • You exile your Teferi.
  • You phase out all your permanents.
  • You exile all remaining permanents.
  • Teferi returns to the battlefield at end of turn. He will be the only permanent on the battlefield. Since Doubling Season is phased out, Teferi will enter with 5 loyalty counters.
July 13, 2018 2:25 p.m.

BMHKain says... #18

Alright... At least I have a certain Staff of Domination to back Planar Portal at least... God I've no patience... X'/

July 15, 2018 9:04 a.m.

BMHKain says... #19

OP updated for Question 8. I wonder...

July 16, 2018 1:02 p.m.

DuTogira says... #20

Your walker set-up in Q8 is nonsensical. If you cast Decree of Annihilation and respond with Teferi's Protection then you get to keep your walkers and they come back on your first extra turn. Venser, the Sojourner is completely unnecessary in this situation.
As for Q’s 2, 6, & 7 regarding Paradox Engine. No, the engine ONLY untaps if you cast a spell (meaning pay its casting cost to put it into play). Any effect which puts a permanent onto the battlefield does not cast the permanent. It literally just PUTS IT onto the battlefield.
Activating abilities does not count as casting a spell. Casting a spell is defined as you PAYING THE CASTING COST of a card in order to play said card. Tokens aren’t cast because they aren’t cards. Dragging a creature back to the battlefield from the yard, say via Meren of Clan Nel Toth, does not count as casting the creature because you didn’t pay the creatures casting cost to cast it.
No you cannot just “pay the casting cost” of a spell to change the fact that you aren’t casting it.
For Q4: mana empties from your pool when you change turns & phases. You have 7 phases:
Main phase 1.
Main phase 2.
End step.
If you tap an Ancient Tomb/Sol Ring/grandma for 2 mana, say in main phase 1, spend only 1 of it or none of it, then go to combat, you lose that mana. It empties from your pool. Now let’s say you tap for 2 and use 1 for a Sol Ring and one for an Aether Spellbomb. That’s fine.

What you may want to do is read the comprehensive rules for MTG. A lot of your questions revolve around Magic’s fundamental rules and could be easily answered via some research, rather than bouncing all of these questions off the tappedout community.

Edit: not that we mind the questions. Rather, you admitted yourself that you’re impatient, and you’d get answers way faster by reading the rules than turning every corner case which you come across into a question for the community whose answers you have to wait for.

July 16, 2018 3:56 p.m. Edited.

BMHKain says... #21


I see...

Alright. That's all I needed to know. (At least, the Mana thing.) I'll remove Decree of Annihilation from my Superfriends list.

Sorry again for the impatience of mine. I just... don't knwn how to alleviate myself of it.

I'll zip it now. I guess I'm a lot too eager for such things... X/

July 17, 2018 8:58 a.m.

BMHKain says... #22

One last thing.


I suppose I should read the card text more carefully to be sure of things. That said, I'll try & reiterate Q1 in a better manner:

1: Grand Abolisher is already online in the case of stuff like Krosan Grip, Nature's Claim, or even the 5 Counterspells.

2: Play Isochron Scepter imprinting Final Fortune.

3: Make a copy of Final Fortune. Play Sundial of the Infinite

4: Cast Apocalypse or Decree of Annihilation (I'd rather the Former...), & respond with Teferi's Protection.

5: Activate Sundial of the Infinite to immediately end the turn. (I could've sworn this was instant speed, so it CAN react to Teferi's Protection...)

6: On the next turn, I get my stuff back, sans hand, & others have just a hand.

I was just wondering if this works this way; that way, I can decide between Apocalypse & Decree of Annihilation. Someone may close this after.

July 17, 2018 10:26 a.m.

cdkime says... #23

No one ever said you cannot respond to Teferi's Protection with Sundial - only that it would be incredibly dumb to do so. Further, I already explained in post 2 of this thread why this is bad.

Read Sundial of the Infinite's reminder text - it clearly states why this is a bad idea.

July 17, 2018 10:52 a.m.

BMHKain says... #24

Alright. I think I understand better than a "Hacked" Siri on a bad Ad Council ad. I was describing a certain scenario, which in cEDH, is apparently a bad idea. I guess the combo would work better without the 2 cards mentioned. Thanks. I want this closed as I try & revise my Gisela deck...


July 17, 2018 11:44 a.m.

Hey, I know I'm late to the party, but if you're looking for rules help, go to the rules forum. It keeps people from spamming the Commander thread, and also you'll get better responses.


July 17, 2018 9:36 p.m.

BMHKain says... #26

Alright. I got the answers I need here anyway... Someone can close this now. (I'll find the rules forum from here... Such an Idiot I can be...)

July 18, 2018 8:50 a.m.

Please login to comment