Commander Legends card is going to break cEDH.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Oct. 29, 2020, 6:19 p.m. by StopShot
If you use your commander as an infinite combo piece, this card accelerates your gameplan by three turns. This card is going to enable more turn 1 and 2 wins and its instantly going to reach the power 9 status of commander cards. There are only three outcomes I see from this.
1.) Jeweled Lotus creates too much of an advantage in casual play environments that those who start with it are the most likely to win. Only this outcome would cause the rules committee to ban the card. While this would be the easiest solution to the problem I don't think the card will be strong enough to break casual by any means, especially with its bound to be expensive price tag making it scarce for budget playgroups.
2.) Jeweled Lotus only creates a toxic environment for cEDH, but creates more of an enjoyable environment for casual EDH. Given the rules committee doesn't want to ban cards based on cEDH it's likely the card won't be banned as cEDH implodes on itself over it.
3.) cEDH combo generals become so obnoxiously strong and common to face against that they end up creating not only a toxic cEDH experience, but also a toxic casual experience that results in a handful of EDH generals getting banned instead. Very unlikely, unless the cEDH community pushes for it to be done as it would be alternative solution to not banning the Jeweled Lotus and it would set a precedent for future commander cards printed to follow. If the Jeweled Lotus sticks around future commander cards will have to be made with it in mind making the Lotus a "power-check" kind of card.
4.) Of course there's the scenario that this card will have no impact and nothing comes of it, but I'm seriously doubting that will happen. This card is going to warp cEDH as we know it.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks this won't be a war, goblin man.
War, at it's core, involves nations; Countries; Worlds.
Let's call this for what it is:
Total Obliterate-tion.
Simic Sky Swallower, please show them oblivion, and your beauty pageant awards. Thank you.
October 30, 2020 12:36 p.m.
Its not as good as Sol Ring, but just as essential. I think it's a great card to add to the format. I only wish it was not mythic so it would be more affordable for everyone.
October 30, 2020 12:37 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #4
TriusMalarky Fair. I will point out, agent let’s you steal the best thing they could find, AND it has flash, so it is better than the cards you listed, but fair nonetheless.
casually starts hacking Orzhov mainframe
October 30, 2020 12:41 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #5
SimicVisionRy, Your pathetic sea monsters are no match for a Lightning Bolt charge tactics and well timed Goblin Grenades
October 30, 2020 12:44 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #6
You know what? Cyclonic Rift There. Now let’s talk this out.
October 30, 2020 12:52 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks ah. tsk tsk tsk. Typical red players. Shroud tends to not care about your Lightning Bolts, Rift Bolts, or Shocks. Do your "Followers" have Hexproof? Unblockable? INFECT? 'Fraid not, shiny gobbo governor, 'fraid not. Now, if you would kindly become second hand chow and feed the Krasis' that'd be great. Ta Ta!
(Absolutely hilarious btw)
October 30, 2020 12:54 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #8
No. Mean magic animal persons uses big words and bigger pets.
October 30, 2020 12:55 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #9
You know what??? Gobbos don't care that it takes u forever to set up. We will destroy everything you stand for. Molten Rain your towns and Crack the Earth. Goodbye Magic man
October 30, 2020 12:56 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #10
VampDemigod Aven Mindcensor and Shadow of Doubt are both instant speed, and are some of the more playable ones.
Agent's good, especially as a mixture of Mindcensor and Praetor's Grasp, both of which are extremely good anyways. But fetches already have enough cEDH viable hate from Mindcensor, Blood Moon, Shadow of Doubt, Ashiok and more that I'm not worried about fetches.
cEDH is not gonna break. I'm more worried about the seven people who still play Vintage and the Legacy players.
October 30, 2020 1:05 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #11
SimicVisionRy Ahem you forgot that both I and Counterspell exist. You sure you want to start to destroy the land and or Crack the Earth?
October 30, 2020 1:06 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #13
TriusMalarky I don’t expect it to break cEDH. Far from it. I expect this set to make both EDH and cEDH thrive.
October 30, 2020 1:10 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #14
The horde doesn't care that its a 2v1 we will kill all who you love and destroy your lands and homes. Burn it all to the ground I say! (And Pyroblast your counterspell.)
October 30, 2020 1:10 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #16
You should've watched out for a Red Elemental Blast
October 30, 2020 1:13 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #17
And should've watched out for the Gobbo g'nades before you decided to ask such a stupid question.
October 30, 2020 1:14 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #18
Ok, that’s it, I’m going to brainstorm to see if I can think of anything to help me out here....
October 30, 2020 1:20 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks poor poor uneducated Gobbo Governor. When will you learn that your actions have consequences? Wash Out your dirty Ears Gobbo man.
October 30, 2020 1:21 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #20
At least I have regular ears you lookin ooze gator ass
October 30, 2020 1:22 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #21
Can someone get an Azorius Guildmage in here to help us make a Peace Treaty?
October 30, 2020 1:26 p.m.
Ah, throwing insults are we? Well, I'll kindly decline your offer, since if I stoop to your level, you'll beat me down with experience. I'd rather lose my normal ears if it meant I wouldn't have to listen to baseless ignoramus' such as you.
Where are the Law Mages when you want them? Only when you don't want them lingering around, you can't find them anywhere....I'd take a distraction from the Cult than deal with the Lawmages, truthfully.
October 30, 2020 1:30 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #24
I'm just waiting for the pres- sorry the guildpact to find it necessary to call in the entire fucking Boros for this...
October 30, 2020 1:32 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #25
My second in command: "Do you know what he just said" Me: "No" Him: "So what do we always do when we don't understand something?" Me: "ATTACKKKKK!!!!!!!!" And all of Ravnica burns to the ground with my fury and confusion.
October 30, 2020 1:33 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #26
Lemme break character for a sec but i love how off topic we are.
October 30, 2020 1:37 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #27
Brilliant. My zombie-illusion-vampire horde's a little restless after being brought back with the help of my spies. Time to slaughter some gobbos 'n mutants.
October 30, 2020 1:43 p.m.
Bring it on, you meek pin cushion! TriusMalarky! You shall know true perfection!
October 30, 2020 1:47 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #29
Disgusting black filth you shall all be burnt to a crisp! And then you will be eaten over a campfire by me and the raze boar.
October 30, 2020 1:58 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #30
Ooh this means I can find out what all of my new tech does! Shark Typhoons might sweep away the city! That’ll be great data!
October 30, 2020 2:17 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #31
Time to call up Ral Zerek and ask if I can call in some Laboratory Maniacs so we can pull out all the things we’ve been Brainstorming.
October 30, 2020 2:19 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #32
Can the posters in this thread please post your 100% off-topic posts elsewhere? I don't want actual discussion to get buried in your silly goose time. The thread is clearly marked "cedh", not "off-topic".
TriusMalarky I disagree with your evaluation of Opposition Agent. That card will see far more play than Jeweled Lotus and make a far bigger impact on games when it resolves.
- It doesn't just block a tutor, it steals a tutor. Compare to other tutor hate that simply blocks a tutor. Opposition Agent effectively replaces itself, but with any card you want from their library. The card is itself effectively a tutor stapled to a hatebear. When the format is heavy with 1 card win conditions like Ad Nauseam and Intuition, stealing a tutor can be game ending.
- With the most common tutor hate Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter, some tutors can still get through even if they are less effective. Opposition Agent is a hard stop to all tutor effects, always.
- A resolved Opposition Agent on the board will still warp gameplay harder than other tutor hate. With a Leonin Arbiter, players can still get their fetches and tutors through. With an Aven Mindcensor, I have seen some players still crack their fetches and pray they can find one in their top 4. Opposition Agent completely stops any tutors of any kind, and a fetch cracked just to shuffle away a bad topdeck will not just be a loss for the player who cracked, but a gain for the owner of Opposition Agent.
- Pilots will now have to be more aware than ever of how a single point of failure can ruin their game plan. If someone is playing Food Chain.dec and has no back ups, a resolved Opposition Agent that steals the food chain has now completely stolen their chances of winning. This will be even more disgusting in BUG Food Chain decks, that are also able to run Extract and Praetor's Grasp, being able to yoink 2 or 3 different key cards to neuter entire decks.
- Every single competitive deck runs tutor effects. I don't mean this figuratively either. Every single competitive deck runs tutors, hard stop. This card is always live. It singlehandedly hates out entire decks, Godo, Sidisi, Yisan, Vannifar, anything with a tutor in the command zone. Also consider how many decks will run lower removal count because their tutors double as removal with layering. Now, those decks running 3 or 4 catch-all pieces of removal don't have any access to it. Also consider how a dead tutor in your hand is wasted opportunity cost. Having a Demonic Tutor in hand while an Opposition Agent is on the board means you have a dead card that does absolutely nothing while the Agent is on the field. Even if it gets removed, delaying your tutor by even a single turn can change your win into a loss.
Opposition Agent is absolutely bananas, and its ability to steal tutors will swing games.
October 30, 2020 2:34 p.m.
RiotRunner789 says... #34
I have an Arcum Dagsson deck which will want a jeweled lotus but get completely wrecked by an op agent.
October 30, 2020 2:51 p.m.
I agree about Opposition Agent. I think it's much more game-warping than the Jeweled Lotus and absolutely requires an answer or you will basically lose the game.
A deck running The agent can even use your own win condition to beat you with and doesnt really require a win condition of it's own so is never a dead draw. Unlike the lotus which loses value as a game progresses. Combine it with Scheming Symmetry and its value is considerable. Consider a deck running the Opposition Agent and a load of hand disruption and library hate. Then it just becomes oppressive.
I am amazed at what it provides with 0 drawbacks. A vanilla 3/2 with flash for 3 isnt amazing but it doesnt totally suck. Then everything printed on that card is insane.
October 30, 2020 3:23 p.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #36
New strategy by WotC: We don't intend to reprint staples, so we make new better ones that will sell the boxes pretty easily.
Honestly, In casual commander 1 card out of 99 doesn't impact the game. Surely the guy who pulls it early in a game may be getting the edge but it's pretty difficult in a casual environment to get a turn 2-3 win even with a turn 1 lotus. On the other hand that card is a must have in cEDH and its price will be pretty high so i don't think i'll manage to buy a copy. I don't play cEDH so this is not a big deal for me. Surely facing a guy who has a turn one jeweled lotus will be a massive pain in the...
October 30, 2020 4:13 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #37
Nonono. The nightmare is turn 1 lotus, Sac lotus, cast commander, turn 2 sol ring, holding up 3 for OP agent. THATS the nightmare.
October 30, 2020 4:47 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #38
VampDemigod, Stop it your scaring me
October 30, 2020 5:11 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #39
dingusdingo oh it'll see play. It's going into every somewhat competitive black deck. But it's not game breaking by any sense of the phrase.
I think it's actually brilliant for the meta. I mean, right now Blue is far and away the best interaction color. It has the advantage of being able to deal with everything, and pretty much has 4 free counterspells as well as 2 1-mana spot removal and 2-3 good 1-mana counterspells, on top of 3+ solid 2 mana counterspells.
But other colors have removal... it's just nowhere near as good as that, and when it is good it's because it's downright awesome.
But now, with OppAgent, anyone not running the spells that are really solid as cheap removal will be sad. Slaughter Pact and more are out there, but not really as good when you could be using blue. But with Agent, now every deck is needed to run more of this removal that sees a lot less play than I think it should.
Straight win in my book. By being a broken card, it actually forces the meta to be more fair.
October 30, 2020 6:26 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #40
Retraction: Slaughter Pact is not good enough, it doesn't hit AGent.
October 30, 2020 6:32 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #41
VampDemigod and I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks when I ask you to stop posting things that are off-topic in a competitive discussion thread, that doesn't mean switch to shitposting about the cards we are discussing. There are easily 15+ posts in thread that are wastes of space and discussion, without having made anyone the wiser for reading them. It is already hard enough to have a serious discussion about cedh on tappedout, let alone find good information on any of the formats. The threads we do get, we do not need rambling posts that provide no new information or viewpoints. You do not need to comment every single time you get a notification or see a new thread, especially if you have nothing to actually discuss.
You may not realize it, but you are making tappedout a worse place to discuss magic when you derail threads and shitpost egregiously like this. Do you want to be able to actually discuss cards and strategies on tappedout? How about you actually discuss the cards, respond to another user in a meaningful way, or pose a new question related to the thread?
I doubt that decks will slot more removal because of Opposition Agent. If anything, it will put an even bigger onus to run blue to counter OpAgent on the stack. I believe we will see another uptick in Gilded Drake usage, because even better than removing is stealing for yourself. More likely than more removal is also probably more draw spells, to draw into an answer or simply draw into whatever they wanted to tutor in the first place. Most decks will choose to keep a slim removal package in my opinion.
It is funny you mention the free counterspells. I find these to be a great analogy to Jeweled Lotus. When Force of Negation and Fierce Guardianship were spoiled, there was similar beating of the wardrums about the death of cedh. Both of these cards suffer in cedh greatly due to their restrictive clauses, and neither are auto-includes in every deck. Force of Negation is a great combo stopper, but can't protect your own combo on your own turn, rendering it worse than most of the 1 CMC counterspells for purposes of actually winning. It worked best to stop yourself from losing. Fierce Guardianship also suffers greatly from its condition, requiring a commander to be a free cast. It doesn't protect your valuable mana acceleration or tutors or value engines on turn 1 and 2, being a worse Negate. It also doesn't protect your commander while resolving, resulting in it being the most effective when you're likely already ahead. Both of these free counters caused a big stink when spoiled. Both of them were adopted by a handful of decks that are able to get around their problems the best. Both of them wreak havoc in casual/high power metas. Neither of them broke the format, and most decklists are sticking to traditional and more reliable methods of counterspells. Similarly, I really believe Jeweled Lotus will cause a splash in decks that can run work around its downsides, but will ultimately be flavor of the month like Fierce Guardianship before it.
October 30, 2020 6:39 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #42
dingusdingo, Most decks in blue already play Gilded Drake so I doubt we will see any uptick except in maybe 5c lists that don’t play it cuz they just splash blue or something. I do not agree with your point about OPAgent not needing to be immediately interacted with-because I do think decks where tutoring is a central part in the game plan will be destroyed by this card. I actually think cards like Deadly Rollick will see an uptick in play. This is because if someone slams a OPAgent gets played before your turn two or something and you can’t interact with it you will lose. You can’t find lands, can’t find cards to interact with it, and can’t find cards to win. IMO both your points are misguided
October 30, 2020 7:06 p.m.
I_Want_To_PlayAllTheDecks says... #43
And what are the downsides of lotus you are talking about? It is amazing in every cedh deck with less than 3 colors that plays a cheap cmdr. T1 Urza. T1 K’rrik. Earlier Godo making T1 WINs much easier. T1 Selvala. T1 GAAIV. There are more that I haven’t mentioned but these are some of the best cedh decks rn. Oh and T1 Najeela which is arguably the Teir 0 deck now.
October 30, 2020 7:11 p.m.
joe_mama_joe says... #44
Check this if you want to see a detailed opinion on it:
COPY AND PASTE THIS LINK: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/did-they-reprint-black-lotus-jeweled-lotus-commander-legends-preview
October 30, 2020 7:30 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #45
dingusdingo I’m not shitposting. I’m theorizing lines of play. Stop hating on people because they have a different way of communicating points than you do.
October 30, 2020 7:32 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #46
One thing people keep forgetting btw: you can spend the lotus on commander tax.
October 30, 2020 7:34 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #47
dingusdingo That's a little dramatic and demanding. Two people having some laughs and then making 2 slightly frivolous posts about the topic at hand isn't the end of the world. Having to sift through a few irrelevant comments isn't ruining tappedout, and your two half-novels of complaining about it don't make it any better. There are simpler, more respectful, and more effective ways to express your dissatisfaction. For example, dingusdingo if you want to focus on the topic at hand, please do so and just ignore the irrelevance or address it in a respectful manner. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of fun.
October 30, 2020 8:55 p.m.
VampDemigod says... #48
I will say, I do appreciate dingusdingo’s point, and I was a bit off topic. I don’t want to turn this into some drama. Yes dingo did overreact, but I can perfectly understand why they did so. I do not hold it against them, nor do I wish for this to turn into the next polarizing T/O debate. I was off topic, someone corrected me, everyone overreacted, let’s move back to talking about playing fun new cards!
cEDH players, do you think the new 0-cost Kobold (can’t remember the name) has any potential for use competitively? I’m definitely building a casual deck around it, but I’m wondering if there’s any chance it sees even fringe play.
October 30, 2020 11:56 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #49
VampDemigod I don't expect it to see any cEDH play unless someone makes some kind of breakthrough with a Cloudstone Curio combo. He could also end up in the 99 of a Blood Pod style deck as a cheap creature that can turn into a good face beater as the game progresses.
October 31, 2020 12:06 a.m.
dingusdingo says... #50
There's no debate. If the community can't understand why I want threads to be on topic, especially concerned to competitive gaming, there is simply no longer a reason to post here. I have changed my decks and primers from visible to hidden. Later nerds.
StopShot says... #1
@dingusdingo, There are lesser combo decks this slides well into as well. Prosh, Azami, Kiki-Jiki, Yisan, Zirda, Chulane, Niv-Mizzet, Jhoira, Selvala, Korvold, Oona, Teshar.
The ones I listed do vary in power level, some definitely not at the same competitive level as the ones you mentioned, but I believe having a card speed up any combo general by three turns is not something to be underestimated with. Even with color restrictions you have to admit your own list of generals this card benefits isn’t a small one. Even as a dead draw the Lotus can still be pretty strong as it makes up for the additional lands/mana rocks you’d need to draw into for commander tax whenever there’s a setback and if your general is a combo piece that benefit is pretty big in my opinion.
October 30, 2020 12:26 p.m.