Commander Legends card is going to break cEDH.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Oct. 29, 2020, 6:19 p.m. by StopShot
If you use your commander as an infinite combo piece, this card accelerates your gameplan by three turns. This card is going to enable more turn 1 and 2 wins and its instantly going to reach the power 9 status of commander cards. There are only three outcomes I see from this.
1.) Jeweled Lotus creates too much of an advantage in casual play environments that those who start with it are the most likely to win. Only this outcome would cause the rules committee to ban the card. While this would be the easiest solution to the problem I don't think the card will be strong enough to break casual by any means, especially with its bound to be expensive price tag making it scarce for budget playgroups.
2.) Jeweled Lotus only creates a toxic environment for cEDH, but creates more of an enjoyable environment for casual EDH. Given the rules committee doesn't want to ban cards based on cEDH it's likely the card won't be banned as cEDH implodes on itself over it.
3.) cEDH combo generals become so obnoxiously strong and common to face against that they end up creating not only a toxic cEDH experience, but also a toxic casual experience that results in a handful of EDH generals getting banned instead. Very unlikely, unless the cEDH community pushes for it to be done as it would be alternative solution to not banning the Jeweled Lotus and it would set a precedent for future commander cards printed to follow. If the Jeweled Lotus sticks around future commander cards will have to be made with it in mind making the Lotus a "power-check" kind of card.
4.) Of course there's the scenario that this card will have no impact and nothing comes of it, but I'm seriously doubting that will happen. This card is going to warp cEDH as we know it.
I'm going to have to agree with dingusdingo here, that page of whatever-the-hell-that-was has basically derailed the thread. If you want to go post random stuff at each other, please do it elsewhere.
I don't want people to respond to this or previous comments (unless they were specifically about card discussion). Moving forward let's just get this conversation back on track.
October 31, 2020 4:07 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #3
After hearing a lot of opinions on this card and getting a bit more perspective, my opinion is adjusting. It could definitely shift the meta a little. I think people will try some more interesting builds and some more aggressive builds, but ultimately, it won't change to much. It will be just another expensive rock, like Lion's Eye Diamond, Grim Monolith, or Mana Crypt.
October 31, 2020 10:11 a.m.
I see a lot of people comparing the card to Mana Crypt or Mana Vault, but realisitcally the card is a lot more akin to Dark Ritual or Lotus Bloom. You get to use it once, that's it. And while I get that there is some overlap with the non-untapping rocks, it's still very different. I think this is why poeple are overhyping the card; even though a lot of people know it's a one-shot, something in their brain tells them that it's a mana rock.
October 31, 2020 10:42 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #5
enpc that works. It's just 0-mana Dark Ritual that is also every color. Not the best, but it can see some real use.
I'm also going to have to take dingus's "point" that people won't be running more removal in response to Agent and say "Gaak forced everyone in Modern to run maindeck Surgicals". Agent won't be as format warping as Gaak was in modern, but it's good enough that we will definitely see a sharp uptick in 1-2 mana removal that hits Agent. Bolt for sure, cards like Ulcerate, etc. I mean, there's already plenty of good targets for bolt, so it's not just a 'screw agent' move. It hits Temur Sabertooth for Dockside comboing, it nabs Teshar and about half the commanders on the cEDH decklist.
There's not really a downside to running more spot removal. It's just that, with tutors, you don't really need as much.... but Agent means no tutors.
It's a 3-mana win condition that fights against tutors, which are the easiest way to find answers. That means we'll need more answers so we can draw them. And if every deck starts running 2-3 more good spot removal to answer Agent, then Agent is not as much of a problem... especially when you have 3 people all with about a 5%+ chance to draw a removal spell. That stacks, and the math also gets better the more cards are drawn.
October 31, 2020 11:12 a.m.
@enpc, I see it as something stronger than Dark Ritual as it’s a net gain of three mana of any one color that you don’t need a turn one black source for with a colorless color identity. The only draw back compared to Dark Ritual is I can’t use it to play a turn 1 Demonic Tutor or a chain of mana rocks.
I get the Lotus is a one-time effect, but if your commander is a combo piece that results in the game ending then often times there really is no difference as to whether it’s a one-time effect or a mana rock. Any cheap card that instantly ramps you a net gain of three mana is going to make any consistently fast deck all the more obnoxious to counteract against and I feel that for any deck that can’t abuse this card in the same manner will have to overstock their own decks with enough cheap removal spells to guarantee they have an answer in their opening hand.
Heck, I enjoy running more spot removal than the average player, but the number of different fast combos feels so diverse that creature spot-removal and Naturalize-type effects alone aren’t good enough to counteract everything and the only thing keeping me from diluting my deck with more narrow answers is 1.) the hope that one of my opponents will be in blue to use counter spells to deal with a problem my deck can’t react to and 2.) the fact we’re playing a 100-card singleton format where having the perfect hand of fast mana cards is like winning the lottery and the odds of a fast win for my opponents happen to be low enough that I can at least squeeze a win in with my lower tier deck.
To some decks having a Jeweled Lotus in the opening hand is just as good if not better than a Sol Ring and an Arcane Signet in the opening hand and it’s those kinds of decks that make me feel like I either need to play blue or play a higher tier deck to stay in the meta.
The other issue is I feel like there’s a bottleneck forming amongst the power levels of cEDH where the lower and some mid-tier decks are losing the ability to compete as the years go by. I run a maxed out non-blue deck that costs over $2000 and if my deck is as strong as it can possibly be and yet fail to reach the ever-rising power-level bar that just leaves me with casual to look back to and I’m sure the casual meta would hate dealing with a mass influx of yesteryear cEDH decks that can’t find a home anywhere else, but that is the other issue that indirectly results from this. Granted I even admit it may be waaaay too much of an overstatement to credit Jeweled Lotus for such an earth-shaking event, but I do think there is a current trend taking place that is leading in such a direction and I do know only stronger cards that will further push the power balance will be printed for years to come. Jeweled Lotus may not be the single card to do it, but I do think it will be hallmarked as the catalyst for what’s to come.
This is just my opinion though as I’d actually love to be wrong about it.
October 31, 2020 11:57 a.m.
And comparing it to Dark Ritual does not mean it's at all a weak card. Dark Ritual itself created a lot of controversy and debate over the years since the start of Magic.
October 31, 2020 1:46 p.m.
spiritwarden says... #8
I will be honest, it has beautiful art and I would run it solely based on the art...if I could somehow manage to get one or two copies.... :)
October 31, 2020 4:13 p.m.
Metachemist says... #9
I'll want one of my Najeela deck but I don't think this will be world ending by any means
October 31, 2020 4:19 p.m.
golgarigirl says... #10
Yet another reason my playgroup is enacting a soft ban on Sol Ring and similar T1 mana-generating cards. We each have our 'no holds barred' deck, but otherwise it creates too much of an arms race environment for our newer players in group, and those that don't have the funds to buy such a card.
Personally, I don't see this card holding it's current $100+ tag. Maybe that's my own bias...most my commanders don't even care about this thing...it only makes one color of mana which makes it useless for Marath, Will of the Wild and Scion of the Ur-Dragon. I may get a T1 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, so what? I attack turn 1 for 3 damage or turn 2 and maybe get something if I had something in my yard? Which I could do already? Savra, Queen of the Golgari waits until late game for her first cast anyways...I use her as a removal spell. It doesn't really help me, even if I wasn't participating in the group soft ban.
October 31, 2020 6:53 p.m. Edited.
ShutUpMokuba says... #11
Then again, the card is not broken IMO. Because it mainly affects cEDH, giving an edge to mono/bi colored commanders. In casual EDH even if the card was "cast your commander for free" wouldn't have broken the game. Because let's remember it's a four players game.. If one gets ahead pretty soon he either wins quickly or he gets three players against him. In cEDH 1 turn is life, in casual edh usually it isn't.
That being said, i agree with what the Professor said in his podcast: even if the card is a quite pushed to the limit of legality without being frankly ban worthy, the fact that disappoints me the most is having cards designed for edh that are basically "must have" for a large portion of the possible decks (if not all the decks). Because IMO that's exactly against what commander shouldn't be. I love the fact that when we sit down a friend of mine shows me a card he just added to the deck that i know for sure it would be pointless in my deck but then it plays awesome in his. Of course they add that card to sell boxes. But you don't need that card to sell boxes: they reprinted Vampiric Tutor, Scroll Rack, Rings of Brighthearth.. just add two more highly requested reprints and there you are. Also, the rest of the set it's quite was i was hoping for: cards with new mechanics that will be fun to build around without unnecessary powercreep and good (necessary) reprints. It's just a pity to me that they designed a card that it's not broken, but an almost auto include in every mono-bi colored deck. And its price will be pretty high ( IMO the price will set around 50$) so it's not accessible to anyone. I'm sorry but if i had to choose to get the cards for a new deck or buy a staple i will pick the first.
I also dislike the fact that since that card was spoiled the price of sealed products increased online. Because, of course, now we know a box may contain a winning lottery ticket the price must be higher.
November 1, 2020 5:03 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #12
They also have all the OG Partners, tons of new partners, a handful of bomb mythics that people will run because they're awesome in EDH but too slow anywhere else. And they have OppAgent, which was already enough of a box seller on it's own.
Lotus shouldn't have been printed by the reasoning that the set is already pushed without it.
Then again, it's massive chase-rariness could force other wildy important and pricey cards down to barely anything. I mean, if people crack cases specifically for this, they'll end up with many more Tymnas and Tharsioses and Vampiric Tutors and Scroll Racks. And many of them will havea significantly dented price tag.
November 1, 2020 2:21 p.m.
So much over reaction on this card look it is a good card it is not broken and does not break cedh. CEDH is already broken will it see play sure but not in a a lot of decks all the Tymna & Thrasios/Vial Smasher decks doubtful a dead card to many times. Godo yes Korvold because even if he is out he can draw of the sacrifice. urza sure just another artifact for him to leverage Yisan sure; so the card helps some already strong already broken mono colored cedh decks get better
TheRealSpecialK says... #1
Well..... guess he showed us then.
October 31, 2020 3:15 a.m.