|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander Anthology (CMT)||Uncommon|
|Commander 2013 (C13)||Uncommon|
|Promo Set (000)||Rare|
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Return all permanents of the color of your choice to their owners' hands.
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Wash Out Discussion
3 weeks ago
I like Torment of Hailfire well enough. One way or another, it is pretty punishing. There are a lot of token decks in my meta, and it is not the best at punishing them. I find Choice of Damnations to be very underwhelming. I frequently find it ends up being an inefficient damage spell at somewhere between 6-10 single target player damage. An Exsanguinate is often better in both of those slots, especially in decks that like to extend the game.
As for a lot of those enchantments, I have a hard time introducing even light stax into my meta. This deck as is has made people balk, and this is even less stax-y than yours. I have to work in ways that punish deck archetypes, but still allow people to play their decks. That is the beauty of Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control. Everyone gets to play their deck out, people fall one at a time, and then someone faces off against Marchesa. About 80% of the time, she scrapes out a win, and everyone seems to think it is a plain lucky win that happened because everyone just handed it to me. Little do they know that it is because I have engineered a board state that very subtly supports that outcome. Stax tends to make games unfun for my friends. I have to go very light on stax, and then make my stax-esque pieces avoidable if they just don't attack me. That is sort of my goal here as well.
I am thinking about my endgame tactics after a few games. Bloodchief Ascension and Zur's Weirding are cool together, and gives very strong control, but it is slow, and people seem to hate Zur's Weirding. I am thinking about strengthening the Paradox Engine combo, adding some specific hate for common deck archetypes that synergize with the rest of the deck, and then adding a few bomb finishers that are good for control decks. At this point, I am thinking:
Man-o'-War -> Unwinding Clock Take out a duplicate bounce and add to the power of the mana rock suite. And that artwork is amazing. Need it in foil. May go further and add Vedalken Orrery for playing on other people's turns. A sort of ad hoc semi-Prophet of Kruphix.
Tidehollow Strix -> Aven Mindcensor This would hate on anyone with too many tutors and fetches, and specifically slows combo decks. If this works well, I may add Mindlock Orb. If I do this, fetches and other tutors will be removed. Which may increase the need for my next change.
Clutch of the Undercity -> Lim-Dul's Vault Removal of a bad tutor for a not-really-tutor, to help get around Mindlock Orb. If this change happens, then possibly will need to remove Expedition Map for the same reason. Cards with alternate uses besides tutoring could stay.
Not sure how, but would like to add Energy Field and Rest in Peace, possibly some other pillow fort cards. I find Pillow Fort to be incredibly political. Maybe exchange Merieke Ri Berit for Zur the Enchanter, and may rework my utility creatures, planning to help speed up my Pillow Fort. This may conflict with Mindlock Orb. Not sure what is working and what is not.
Cultivator's Caravan -> A different mana rock. I can only crew this with Sen Triplets, an enemy creature I steal, or multiple creatures, unless my utility creatures get bigger. May trial this for a bit longer. Enemy creatures may become my mainstay for crewing this, but I have a feeling that this is less than optimal. I am considering Chrome Mox in this slot, or Grim Monolith. Either that or a finisher like Sun Titan or Consecrated Sphinx to get value and fill that finisher spot as well.
Wash Out -> Another mass bounce or straight board wipe spell. Stealing creatures to bounce them back to their owners' hands is not cool. This would work better in a different deck. Still, I need mass control.
Artifact lands -> Basics. Artifact hate may become too much for me to withstand. Need a balance.
Annyway, after some more play testing, I think I am narrowing in on the interesting style of control you can get in a Sen Triplets deck. It has been fun so far.
1 month ago
Hey, that makes a lot of sense you want creatures to use as blockers in the early game before Drakes. Another thing to consider is more mass bounce board wipes. Slivers rely on having an assortment of different Slivers in play each Sliver then gains a lot of different abilities. Bouncing the entire board of creatures breaks this interaction and slows your Sliver opponent down. This gives you more time to get Talrand into play without being pressured.
Bouncing the board of all creatures does hurt the game plan of Drakes because they're tokens, but you can recover from this. There's a few budget four and five drop bounce board wipes:
These bounce board wipes don't care if your opponents' creatures are attacking like AEtherize does. Engulf seems good vs Slivers because Slivers in the early game have 1 or 2 toughness and since you're playing a lot of Islands Engulf can bounce all Slivers at instant speed for four mana. Wash can bounce a bunch of permanents and not hurt you, just don't name blue.
Ramping into a fast Talrand is a good strategy. There's a few budget mana rocks that can help with this:
I always prefer two drop mana rocks over three drops. Playing a two drop rock turn two here gives you a good shot at playing Tarland turn three which is fast. Other than Sol Ring there's no budget 0 or one drop mana rocks they're all expensive Magic cards.
Sapphire Medallion is a powerful artifact with Talrand and it's the effect you're looking for. I consider it budget, but $5 is a still a lot. Baral, Chief of Compliance is also a very good creature with blue control. He doesn't help ramp for Talrand, but all spells that make a Drake are then reduced by one colorless mana. Getting to draw after countering something with a counterspell is also good.
Runechanter's Pike is another card to consider it gives you an alternative win condition needing only one Drake or even just Talrand. Give the Drake huge power and swing for a lot in the air or give Talrand huge power and swing for a lot of first strike Commander damage.
3 months ago
As a more detailed comment from the one I made the other day-
Part I) Cards to remove and why:
A) Angler Drake- You have this in here mainly so you can abuse your "enter the battlefield" effects. There are plenty of cheaper options to do this.
B) Storm Sculptor- Basically the same reason as Angler Drake.
C) Sylvan Primordial-Depending on who you ask, this card may or may not be banned. Might as well play it safe and take it out.
Part II) Cards to consider removing and why:
A) Emperor's Vanguard- It's a decently powerful creature for its cost and can help you get land, but there are some more reliable ways to get card advantage. If you add more ways to get through opponents defenses (i.e. unblockable effects) then I guess this can stay.
B) Blossom Dryad- It's good because it can untap the lands that tap for two mana, but you might want to go for a more reliable, cheaper mana source (i.e. Birds of Paradise, Curse of Bounty, Deserted Temple, Krosan Restorer, Bloom Tender, Elvish Mystic, Gyre Sage, Llanowar Elves, Quirion Elves, Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, Sylvan Caryatid
C) Carnage Tyrant- It's a powerful creature, and it's hard to get rid of, but other than that, it doesn't offer much. Considering you have other power creatures in your deck (i.e. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger), you might want to consider replacing the tyrant with something just as big that can offer more synergy with the rest of your deck. Consider: Sphinx Ambassador or Colossal Whale, among others.
D) Last Thoughts- Gives you a single card with the promise of more cards later, which is nice, but for 4 mana you could probably reliably get more card draw than this card offers.
E) Growing Rites of Itlimoc- In many decks this card is very powerful, but for your deck, in playtesting it turns out you rarely have 4 creatures out at a time, making this card not really worth having in your deck. You have plenty of other ways to get loads of mana, so you can probably remove this one without problem.
F) Jace's Erasure- It's nice to mil cards especially since you're drawing cards anyway, but mil is an unreliable way to debilitate your opponent unless your whole deck is built around the strategy. You might be able to remove a good card or two, but it's a gamble that often doesn't pay off in the long run.
G) Loxodon Warhammer- Good card, not much synergy with your deck. There are better cards that you can use to combo things.
Part III) Small creatures to consider:After playtesting a bunch, it seems your deck likely needs a few more small creatures so you have a better chance of defending yourself or making a dent in your opponent early on. Here are a few suggestions:
A) Invisible Stalker- Small dude, unblockable and hexproof. It's pretty neat and you can combo with those cards that let you draw if you deal damage to an opponent.
B) Ohran Viper- Smallish creature, gets you early card advantage. Deathtouch is a nice touch.
C) Slith Predator- Smaller than Ohran Viper but it gets bigger the more often you poke an opponent with it.
D) Slith Strider- The best of both Ohran Viper and Slith Predator. You might draw a card, you might make the little guy bigger, either way, you get a good early-game bonus.
E) Thada Adel, Acquisitor- Smallish creature, and chances are your opponent as a good artifact or two you can abuse. Early on you can exile cards you don't want your opponent to use, and later on you can just summon that shit for yourself.
F) Zhuge Jin, Wu Strategist- Smallish creature, makes one of your other creatures unblockable every turn. Early game helps with the little dudes like the Slith bros or Thada Adel, late game helps with your big guys to deal big damage to your opponents.
G) Stealer of Secrets- Another small dude that gets you card advantage early on.
Part IV) Removal to consider:The other big thing I noticed when playtesting with your deck is you don't have much removal for when your opponent sneaks past your counter spells. Here are a few suggestions to remedy that.
A) Cyclonic Rift- If you would put any of my suggestions in your deck, you should definitely put this one in. Reacts effectively to early-game threats as well as late-game ones (Plus it hilariously screws with token decks since tokens die instead of going into a hand). When you overload it, it bypasses both hexproof and indestructible. Very few cards can resist it at that point.
B) Wash Out- Can be pretty helpful, especially if your opponent doesn't play blue or green. Works as cyclonic rift in regards to bypassing defenses.
C) Dissolve- Yeah it's another counter spell but this one lets you scry.
D) Voyage's End- Removes a threat and lets you scry.
E) Duplicant- You probably remember this one from my karador EDH. It's not as good here, but it's still good removal. Exiles an enemy while getting yourself a decent creature in the process.
F) Phyrexian Ingester- Blue Duplicant.
G) Brittle Effigy- Exiles a threat and puts your opponent on edge because WHO WILL YOU EXILE OH GOD!
H) Heartseeker- Somewhat reliable destroy effect for creatures, which is uncommon in blue.
I) Curse of the Swine- Exiles multiple creatures and replaces them with cute lil piggies (I love Theros lore, it's just straight-up greek mythology)
J) Reality Shift- Cheap exile effect with an insignificant drawback.
K) Pongify- Cheap destroy effect with a drawback that's only a big deal in the early game.
L) Rapid Hybridization- Same as Pongify.
M) Lux Cannon- Pretty decent late-game removal, but it takes time to set up.
N) Ugin, the Spirit Dragon- Pretty neat planeswalker addition with removal and card draw.
O) Steel Hellkite- Pretty neat creature that removes stuff, easy to hit opponent with your unblockable shenanigans.
P) Krosan Grip- Good cheap removal.
Q) Acidic Slime- Good mid-game creature. Removal and deathtouch.
R) Song of the Dryads- Can hilariously be used on commanders without sending them to the command zone.
S) Evacuation- The blue version of a board wipe.
Part V) Abusing "Enter the Battlefield" effects, aka "Flicker" effects.You probably want a few more of these.
A) Deadeye Navigator- Flicker whatever you want as many times as you want, provided you have the mana for it. You can change soulbonds every time you flicker.
B) Ghostly Flicker- Flicker two different things and you can do it in response to an opponent targeting something to prevent it from succeeding.
C) Archaeomancer- You want this almost as much as you want eternal witness.
D) Eternal Witness- Bring back any card into your hand. Wanna use any of your instants/sorceries again? Cuz ya can. Want a creature back? Revive that shit.
E) Equilibrium- Works on both your creatures and your opponent's.
F) Mulldrifter- For three mana, it's basically a sorcery that draws you a couple cards. For five mana, it's a creature that can be flickered.
G) Palinchron- Considering the lands you have that provide double mana, you may end up with an infinite mana combo here.
H) Nephalia Smuggler- Reliable flicker effect.
I) Augury Owl- Small flickerable creature, plus you can get an early-game scry which is nice.
J) Omenspeaker- Same as the owl.
G) Cryptic Annelid- More scrying.
H) Fool's Demise- Keep your big guys alive while abusing their "enter the battlefield" effect.
I) Mystic Snake- Since you love countering so much, why don't you flicker to get even more countering?
J) Prime Speaker Zegana- Hey this looks kinda like your commander, doesn't it?
K) Strionic Resonator- This works on any trigger effect, which includes every one of your "enter the battlefield" effects.
Part VI) Land ShenanigansYou can always use more land shenanigans. It's pretty easy to replace a basic land with one of these options.
A) Hinterland Harbor-Good dual land. Chances are you can get it out untapped, and it's not even a big deal if it comes in tapped.
B) Rogue's Passage- Why is this not already in here?
C) Breeding Pool- Another good dual land option. It also counts as a "forest" or "island" for effects that specify those words (i.e. Hinterland Harbor).
Part VII) Other cards to consider and why:A) Prophet of Kruphix- Really synergizes with your counter spells. Feel free to tap out all your land to play a creature, cuz at the beginning of your opponent's untap step (even before their upkeep), all your land is free to use again to counter stuff (and use other instant-speed effects).
B) Genesis- Bringing back your dead creatures is usually a good thing.
C) Sphinx Ambassador- Fun big card.
D) Colossal Whale- Another fun big card.
E) Hunter's Insight- Easy way to get a good amount of card advantage.
F) Veil of Secrecy- Creature gets hexproof and unblockable for a turn, which is neat.
G) Artful Dodge- More unblockable.
H) Boundless Realms- ALL THE RAMP
I) Protective Bubble- The blue whispersilk cloak.
J) Aqueous Form-Unblockable AND scry
K) Into the Wilds- More ramp is nice.
The problem with EDH is you ONLY get 100 cards, which always sounds like a lot more than it is. At one point it just becomes a question of what do yo personally like the most. Have fun narrowing this list down.
3 months ago
@NV_1980 I have considered running Extraplanar Lens a few times; I think the main thing keeping me from it is that I don't run enough counterspells to protect it, and if it get's destroyed it sets me really far back. I might test it in the future, since the mana doubling is a lot more desirable than something like Sapphire Medallion, but the associated risk is also much higher.
I'm not a fan of Wash Out in multiplayer, but Inundate is a cool card I've never seen before. My main issues with Inundate is it's 6 mana and sorcery speed; I'd rather play something along the lines of AEtherize since it allows me to keep my options open instead of tapping out for a board wipe. I've also though about playing Ixidron since it is more permanent 'removal' than the bounce board wipes and also deals with commanders handily. The main reason I'm not playing any of these cards though is that the deck doesn't really feel like it needs more board wipes, so I'm content with the ones I have for the time being.
4 months ago
This looks like a really nice deck to play in multiplayer EDH (FYI, I really like what you've said in your description on the differences between single/multiplayer EDH).
As you tend to use High Tide in your combo's a lot, I was thinking Extraplanar Lens could also be a nice addition (although I get that you're using Tide purely when you want to combo off; still worth considering though).
4 months ago
Well if that's the case your deck is pretty well setup. Look at my suggestions in my first comment and stay away from trying to get some combo going in monoblue. Wash Out is another card I forgot, but that should do it. Test some cards, adjust this list online and I'd be happy to look at it again :)
4 months ago
Hey there Profet93,
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm gonna do a quick update after this for sure.Gifs being banned is a for sure cut then! I assume you're cutting alot of the higher mana cost cards as they have some form of anti-synergy with casting as many instant/sorceries as you can?
How valuable is Caged Sun in a deck like this? The reason i'm running Treasure mage is literally only being able to find that card specificly or my one other 6 mana artifact in case i already have Caged Sun. I can see how already having both makes it a dead card, but i guess it's a good one to discard then? Which i suppose is also why Padeem gets cut, not consistent/vital enough for the main goal of the deck.
My other question is regarding the cuts to both my options to shuffle a graveyard back into the library. I fear running out of cards very fast if my draw engines get going and i'm casting a cantrip a drawspell and a counter every turn. Or doesn't the game usually last that long and i can't afford the spots in the deck for it?
Actually, come to think of it, you're cutting alot of draw spells in general, is draw not a problem when ur trying to cast as many spells as you can for more drakes?
I'm very curious how a player with a real tested Talrand deck experienced it.
Frozen AEther i find among the better cards and i thought was close to being blue staple. Any specific reason it's getting cut?
4 months ago
hetwiel Hey! I love seeing another Talrand user. You should cut the following...
Gifts Ungiven - banned
Its more than 15 cards so you can decide which one or 2 you want to save. A lot of them are just bad or don't support you as much as other cards can.
If you want some more ideas, feel free to check out my deck Tisk Tisk Talrand for a competitive version of Talrand