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Wash Out Discussion
1 week ago
Comment incoming for Thalia.
Commander / EDH
SCORE: 17 | 37 COMMENTS | 2570 VIEWS | IN 11 FOLDERS
3 weeks ago
Hey! First off, I re-read my comment, and I think I sounded rude, so I want to apologize for that. I was falling asleep writing my last comment and wasn't really able to accurately gauge the tone of my writing.
Second off, I want to address a few over-arching aspects of constructing a flicker deck. There are two general design elements I want to bring up that change the direction of the deck: how many counterspells, if any, do you want to run; and how focused are you going to be on infinite combos. Your deck, right now, does not have a single way to directly interact with anything on the stack, which includes counterspells. You also have what I would consider a moderate focus on infinite combos. Finally, I would say that your deck has a budget. Nothing too prohibitive, but I don't see Survival of the Fittest, Gilded Drake, or Palinchron in there. I play a counterspell heavy, combo intensive, lower curved, and less budget restrictive bant flicker deck. That is the direction my suggestions will take your deck, so if that is not the direction you want to go, take my suggestions with a grain or five of salt.
Third, in my experience this deck's weaknesses are: surviving the early game, Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff, Competitive Combo/Control or Stax decks, and board wipes (unless you have adequate recursion, and then opponents having graveyard hate is problematic). I am going to specifically address how cards help combat each of these weaknesses except the competitive decks. You lose to those. That's fine, this isn't the archetype to take to that table.
Now, you asked about the "multiple weaker cards" that I mentioned. I honestly don't have much for you that I can just point to and say is weak in the deck. It's a solid build. Here are the few cards I am comfortable saying have stronger options within budget: Telling Time, Oblivion Ring, Wash Out, Foresee, and Displacement Wave.
Ok, let's get into a bit more meat now and break down your deck.
ETB abusers in the deck:
Venser, the Sojourner - I found that this was basically the same as Conjurer's Closet except that it had the potential to ultimate (which usually wins), but every time I played venser it died, and I suspect it's the same for you. As a flicker engine, both this and Conjurer's Closet were too slow for me. Yeah, they give you a bit each turn, but I always found that I needed more upfront impact.
Panharmonicon - I have never played with this card. I built bant flicker about a year before Roon was released, and I haven't played EDH for over a year. This card seems ridiculously powerful to me, but I have no experience with it.
Deadeye Navigator - Obviously amazing.
Cloudstone Curio - I have never played with this card either. It always seemed a bit slow to me, but it's obviously a combo piece in your deck.
Devastation Tide - I want to compare this directly to Evacuation. This hits more targets, but is at sorcery speed. If you add more instant speed shenanigans, Evacuation gets insane and is clearly better. Otherwise, this card is a solid option.
Displacement Wave - I have never played with this card. It seems like a worse Devastation Tide, which to me seems like a worse Evacuation. Again, I just want more instants.
ETB abusers not in the deck:
Parallax Wave - This card is one of my favorites. It can be Fog, Rescue, Eerie Interlude, or a bit of each. It's amazing early because it can stop most attackers for one or two turns, and it's amazing late because it can flicker five guys. Seriously, if you haven't messed with this, do so.
Portcullis - This card is also one of my favorites. Locks down the early game extremely effectively, and every creature you put under it triggers both when you play it and when it returns. The goal of ETB decks is to get to the late game. This is a one card train to get there.
Evacuation - I like instant speed, as you've probably noticed. Hence this. You get a ton of value by re-using all of your ETBs and it sets everyone else back.
Phantasmal Image - Combo piece with Palinchron, tutorable with Survival of the Fittest, does wonders with Birthing Pod, and is all around pretty amazing. The utility of this skittish two drop is astounding.
Karmic Guide - When you just play this, it's mediocre. But it has so many absolutely busted interactions with Reveillark, Birthing Pod, and Survival of the Fittest that a deck with those cards can abuse this to a ridiculous extent.
Birthing Pod - Woah baby. One of the best ETB engines I have ever played with. This card simply ends the game if left unanswered for a few turns in the right deck. And I think most decks are the right deck. If you don't believe, just try it.
Ephara, God of the Polis - I see that this was one of the cards you've tested and found underwhelming. I think that this card gets much stronger with a more developed control plan. If you add counterspells, I would suggest revisiting this card.
Momentary Blink - Cloudshift like effects are at best OK. They can save a creature, they can re-use an ETB effect in a pinch, and in general they have some good utility. Most of the time they simply aren't worth playing because the effect gained for it costing a card is not worth it. I think this card is just because you can do it twice. It does cost a lot of mana, but it really gives you a lot of options. Again, this card is stronger with a more control oriented deck.
Overall, I think your deck would be faster, more inevitable, and have a stronger late game with more of the abusers I mentioned above. As far as ETB targets, yours are pretty strong. Palinchron is incredible, but a bit pricey these days. That card was around $6 back when I bought it. Anyway, I want to address the cards I mentioned that you said you'd already tested.
Angel of Finality - In my opinion, this card is not as good in your deck because of Aluren. Stonecloaker is probably a better option. Also, Stonecloaker was too slow in my meta. Most of the time, there were numerous threatening cards in several graveyards that I wanted to deal with, and exiling cards one at a time simply wasn't effective enough.
Woodfall Primus - I suggested this only because it's a powerful creature and you seem to be open to playing cards with high mana costs. I haven't tested it much, i cut it from my deck very early because the cost was too high.
Acidic Slime - This is a versatile answer to a lot of problems. It's one of the lowest mana cost answers to lands that need to be dealt with, which were prevalent in my meta.
I think, overall, that your deck would be stronger with more instants, less sorceries, adding some counterspells, and adding more engines to abuse your ETB effects. Right now, most of your abuse of ETB creatures is centered around returning them to your hand and re-casting them. That takes a lot of mana, and is slower than it could be. Anyway, I could keep going, but basically I think you should build my deck! Haha, stuff it full of counterspells and combos, and spend another $400. Just kidding, don't do that. Not only is that just what I enjoy, but my opinion is based on my understanding of a complicated deck with numerous powerful options that has had a card banned and a few new powerhouses added since I last played it.
Again, it's a fun archetype, and I like your take on it! Hopefully some of these ideas will be relevant to the direction you're going, and I hope it comes out well!
3 weeks ago
Traveler247 Thanks for taking a moment to look at the deck. Omniscience and Aluren are part of what makes this deck unique. I don't see a lot of folks running them, and I've done some pretty interesting (and brutal) things with each. Especially before having Peregrine Drake around they were good sources of my infinite combos.
I see quite a few cards in your suggestion list that I've play tested over time. Things like Angel of Finality, Woodfall Primus, Archaeomancer, Acidic Slime, Karmic Guide, Ephara, God of the Polis, and Evacuation. I agree each is a good suggestion in it's own right, although they're cards that I've chosen to remove for a variety of reasons.
I see you mentioned "multiple weaker cards" - any cards in particular that you think are worth cutting outright? Usually the deck plays out by holding board presence with the early creatures and sweeper/bounce effects until I can establish position with some of my combo cards. Roon is often an afterthought at best in many of the games I play, as I'm too busy ramping and controlling the board.
I will say I've never worried much about infinite turns since I can almost always leave my opponents with zero permanents using terrastodon and one of the many creatures I have around that exile on ETB to clear the tokens (or a well played bounce spell like Wash Out targeting green). My biggest challenge is usually having sufficient cards in hand (which is where I sometimes question the cheap draw spells like Ponder, Preordain, etc.) They're great early game but mid to end game I often have plenty of mana and need more gas. These leave me feeling a little short. I've found Blue Sun's Zenith is too heavily color costed. I know Time Reversal benefits more than just me, but I've always found it to be great value to reload my hand and force an opponent to shuffle whatever he may be sitting on. Any thoughts or suggestions you have relative to this would be interesting to hear.
Glad you liked the deck, it's a real joy to play and has led to some shocking wins.
1 month ago
Some other "inexpensive" cards that could be fun:
- Capsize / Cyclonic Rift / Voyage's End / Crystal Shard / Wash Out for more bounce
- Isochron Scepter because a spell on a stick is always handy
- Curse of the Swine great removal (and VERY cheap for how good it is)
- Spell Crumple because a counterspell that goes back in to your deck rocks
- Ponder / Fact or Fiction / Blue Sun's Zenith / Foresee for more draw
1 month ago
Just some thoughts in case they help build off of what Immortalized said or provide any other useful things to look at:
There are a lot of other draw cards too that you might consider:
- Ambition's Cost / Ancient Craving / Read the Bones / Sign in Blood are decent cheap black draw spells that cost a little bit of life
- Phyrexian Arena
- Fact or Fiction
- Telling Time / Brainstorm / Ponder / Preordain / Foresee If you want some Scry/Shuffle/Deck Manipulation with your draw
And countless more. In a deck like this though there's a lot of value to be had in something like Phyrexian Arena since 1 life per upkeep is no biggie with Oloro around
Here's some other good removal to think about:
- Merciless Eviction and Austere Command can give you a lot of options
- Cyclonic Rift / Wash Out / Aether Gale can set an opponent back a lot. Cyclonic Rift for it's overload is the best!
- Curse of the Swine is always fun
- Supreme Verdict if you get overwhelmed or desperate. It's strictly better in my opinion that Wrath of God or Day of Judgment
- Toxic Deluge is another great creature removal if you have life to spare
Slow Down Taxes
Here are some cards that can really halt your opponent's aggression:
- Ghostly Prison / Propaganda / Sphere of Safety to make them pay to attack
- Rhystic Study to make them pay additional for each spell they cast (or let you draw)
- Imposing Sovereign
- Fog Bank / Guard Gomazoa / Wall of Frost Fun cheap defenders that can stick around or eat removal
Some other creatures worth mentioning that tax an opponent's life:
- Fate Unraveler Damage on draw. Can be great for forcing end of game on an opponent's draw step if you get your combos set and can't push it over the edge (unlikley). At any rate he can be pesky.
- Blood Artist / Blood Seeker / Cliffhaven Vampire / Deathgreeter / Falkenrath Noble / Suture Priest / Zulaport Cutthroat All sorts of interactions and costs associated with creatures.
- Kambal, Consul of Allocation Life cost to play spells. Another great way to trip some combos and source life for draws.
Here's some other cards that are worth noting:
- Pristine Talisman combos well if you have Oloro out (Tap to gain life, spend the mana to draw the card and cost each opponent 1 life)
- Baleful Strix can be great utility in this kind of deck
- Reliquary Tower Is always great in draw decks
One card I'd definitely recommend ditching is Azor's Elocutors.
Other cards I see that I'd consider removing if it was me:
- Palisade Giant CMC too high for too little bonus in my opinion.
- Azorius Chancery / Dimir Aqueduct / Orzhov Basilica . I've seen these mess up players' tempo and strategy so many times. They're also great value for any opponents running land destruction. Some other options to consider could include: Drowned Catacomb / Glacial Fortress / Isolated Chapel if you want faster mana. OR Temple of Silence / Temple of Enlightenment / Temple of Deceit if you want the bonus scry. OR maybe even something as simple as Scoured Barrens / Tranquil Cove / Dismal Backwater in the hopes the 1 life lets you get a bonus draw.
I used to play an Oloro deck as well (albeit it with a very different affinity ) using a ton more artifacts and some fun combinations around Darksteel Forge and Nevinyrral's Disk . He's a great commander and a lot of fun. I hope you enjoy the deck and can find something useful in any of my suggestions.
Good luck and happy hunting!
1 month ago
GD Merfolk! I have a merfolk EDH with Sygg and I luvv it, but it just doesn't keep up with super aggro decks unfortunately. They aren't terrible in multi-player, but in heads up merfolk EDH can be very disappointing. Trust me, I've tried most notable cards in it and in every configuration. I highly recommend cards like Inundate, Wash Out, Teferi's Moat, AEtherize, Opposition. Also, True-Name Nemesis is almost a must! Still +1 from me because I've been there.
1 month ago
Liking it! +1. Being all blue Inundate makes perfect sense, maybe even Wash Out or Hoodwink Remand don't forget Rescue , Chain of Vapor and Forsaken City , Howling Mine if you decide to throw in Stasis or like cards.
1 month ago
Phwew. So. Got through it.
I like the primer. It's a beast to read through, but for someone looking to build their own version, it explains what you've got going on. I might look into some alternate cards choices that you could talk about in the primer, so that someone looking to build their own Arjun deck might be able to build one that isn't a carbon copy of yours, but is styled off it - I find the Maybeboard is a great place to put those cards.
As far as the deck goes, you say it's lacking defense - I'd try adding more AEtherize effects, and take out some of the too-slow sorcery version. Cut things like Sleep and Wash Out for being too slow, and try AEtherspouts or Mirror Match, instead. Maybe Dominate/Cackling Counterpart/Domineering Will? All are good for surprise blocks. Clone Legion isn't an instant, but it'll still give some good defense against someone who's planning an alpha strike.