|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Commander Anthology (CM1)||Uncommon|
|Commander 2013 (C13)||Uncommon|
|Promo Set (000)||Rare|
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Return all permanents of the color of your choice to their owners' hands.
Wash Out Discussion
3 weeks ago
Telepathy is underrated btw
2 months ago
In EDH, when a player with a blue source and at least mana in other sources open on a field. It is a threat. It is a threat not because of a 7 mana spell, but a 2 mana spell, not a spell that deals damage, counters spell, destroys permanents, tutors, or cheats costs, but a bounce spell.
Cyclonic Rift , C-Rift, the big wave, whatever you call it, people know it as one of the strongest, most backbreaking spells in all of EDH, if not the best card in the format.
I am here to say that is isn't.
Part of my series on why other popular staples aren't good ( Phyrexian Arena , Rampant Growth ), or are simply not good in a specific way ( Rhystic Study ), I am not here to deny the power that a card like Cyclonic Rift has, but simply that it isn't a good enough card to warrant the hate or love that it receives.
Before I go over why it isn't good, I need to go over why at nearly every power level, it is good.
In casual EDH, the 50% or less, the Precons, the jank, lies it's the weakest state.
That is where all removal spells, sweepers, or countermagic is the weakest, especially bounce. If no one has threatening boards, why remove them. You'd rather spend 7 mana on a spell to improve yours most of the time, yet those games go long, the Cyclonic Rift acts as a Fog to save you, Sleep to get in for damage, or real removal if you use it on a player's end step if they have to discard just after.
Almost all cards that show heavy play at higher levels show some play at lower ones, and while the price-tag may limit it for most casual players, it does work.
At the 75% or the middle tiers of EDH, where I think EDH players mostly lie, it where it is the most powerful. IF it destroyed any number of target nonland permanents, it would be weaker, because of three reasons:
75% decks often use permanent-based engines to support their gameplan. Think Beast Whisperer along with a deck full of cheap elves, or Paradox Engine in a deck will a lot of Temple Bell effects and mana rocks.
These decks and their creators often expect opponents to remove threats, so have many threats to remove.
They try to protect against sweepers, the only punishing cards for going so wide, with anti-sweepers, think Heroic Intervention , or Boros Charm , and protect against some single-target removal with effects like Darksteel Plate .
Because of this, and because indestructible and hexproof don't protect against a mass bounce effect, along with Cyclonic Rift being the only mass bounce at instant speed that doesn't affect you at all, and doesn't target, it is truly the best anti-75% sweeper by many standards.
In the competitive setting, while not bad, it is mostly relegated to being a 2 mana Chain of Vapor or a Into the Roil that doesn't draw a card, that can let a combo deck get through stax locks once in a blue moon.
Don't get me wrong, being relegated to a slightly worse Chain of Vapor isn't an insult. Chain of Vapor is possible the best removal in cEDH, as decks like Kess consultation or P-Hulk variants Laboratory Maniac wins, and for 1 blue mana, or two in the case of Cyclonic Rift , you get to bounce their wincon as they draw off an empty deck, so they lose...
That is some powerful stuff.
So why isn't it the best EDH card, an efficient spell in nearly any metagame? 2 options for removal, one that crushes many lists and the other a sleek and useful trick?
Because it isn't hyper-efficient, nor is it unbeatable, nor is it irreplaceable.
To start, many cEDH decks that run it run consistent amounts of countermagic to protect it's possible great effect, and numerous cards could fit the spot. It isn't alone. Blink of an Eye , the second Into the Roil has been used over it in many combo lists that more mana-efficient options and many forget the slot all-together, in favor of a cantrip or other removal spell like Abrade or whatever. It isn't very dominant there, and so is easy to explain why it wouldn't be amazing there.
In casual lists, Cyclonic Rift costs about as much as half of many of the casual decks, or even more than some entire casual decks that I have seen. Bringing money-cards wins there, as would a Consecrated Sphinx that costs less money, and I'd wager would have more powerful an effect. Again, an easy argument, but I believe it works.
The really hard place to argue against Cyclonic Rift on the surface is the middle tiers. The 75% lists. Legitimately, I think it is because in the 75% players don't consistently a highly interactive 'metagame'. They just prefer to be interactive 'ingame'.
This comes down to theory, however, when a deck, for example, an elf list abusing the Llanowar Elves style effects along with untap effects to keep making mana, dumping it into something like Ezuri, Renegade Leader . All of that deck and many others get shut down by Null Rod . While that card may be less powerful than other cards against any random deck, as many players know exactly what decks they face, they can play to those decks.
This means general removal, like Anguished Unmaking may be worse if artifacts and walkers don't see much play, you'd rather Mortify . Or if instant speed doesn't help you much, as a lot of City of Solitude / Dosan the Falling Leaf effects exist in your meta, Vindicate , etc.
This is pretty basic knowledge, however, the point here is that there are many, many replacements for Cyclonic Rift in different metagames, and I want to share the ones, only in mono-blue, that in the 75% are why Cyclonic Rift is overrated.
This isn't to say it isn't the best, but that if many, many replacements cost way less $$$ and are occasionally better, that one card shouldn't be considered the best in every situation.
Aether Gale , sorcery, only hits six things, has to hit your things if you don't have enough targets of only your opponents, targets, etc. Yes, there are reasons this is clearly worse.
Why is it better? Politically, you don't have to hit cards from players you team with. Similarly, if you like the Howling Mine on someone's field, don't bounce it. Someone Banishing Light ed someone else's threat you can't deal with? Don't bounce it.
Also, 18 cents. Compared to ~20 dollars and I think it is a steal for budget lists.
Also, it is 2 mana cheaper, despite not being an occasional Disperse .
Evacuation , the downside is simple, it doesn't hit non-creatures, and bounces your own things.
The upsides are for decks that want their own things bounced. ETB effects like Mulldrifter (You can respond to the sacrifice on evoke if you want!), Archaeomancer (infinite sweepers by returning Evacuation , or just recur another card), Duplicant , Solemn Simulacrum , etc.
It is 5 mana too, still an instant, and is only 2-3 dollars right now.
Other options for this could be AEtherize , Whelming Wave , Inundate , Engulf the Shore , Profaner of the Dead , or Scourge of Fleets if you just want mass creature bounce, each with ups and downs, some that only hit opposing creatures, some that are instants, some with graveyard synergies, etc.
For mass nonland bounce that doesn't target? There are tons of options, plenty with lower mana costs than Cyclonic Rift .
Take Coastal Breach . It does a mass bounce for just 4 mana (with 3 opponents), leaving you enough to rebuild first, and being able to be cast much faster, making up slightly for the sorcery speed.
Or Crush of Tentacles , 6 mana? 5 mana and an 8/8, it needs to be in a deck with enough cheap drops to hit surge to be worth it, but an option.
Devastation Tide is a personal favorite, if you run Aminatou, Brainstorm , a lot of scry, Mystical Tutor , Long-Term Plans , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , or are lucky, it is a 2 mana bounce everything. Really strong, however, sorcery (unless you cast it with Miracle on an opponents turn.
Run really high mana cards? Displacement Wave can be better,
Like a big creature attached? Kederekt Leviathan . It even comboes with flicker effects, or can be repeated for 2 mana with an effect like Animate Dead or 3 mana at instant speed whenever with Necromancy in black/blue.
Only need to target one player for political reasons? River's Rebuke .
A lot of one color in the meta? Wash Out
Artifacts/Enchantments? Reduce to Dreams
Even outside of bounce effects, Ixidron can do work xD
Point is, there are options. Even outside of blue, sweepers that can get around the normal protection is seriously strong. Terminus , Hallowed Burial , along with most mass exile effects in white from Play of the Game to Final Judgement / Descend upon the Sinful to the new Urza's Ruinous Blast , etc. Mercilous Eviction in W/B, the -x/-x effects in black like Toxic Deluge or Black Sun's Zenith , etc. in any color, Perilous Vault exists.
These are half of why I think Cyclonic Rift is overrated. Not because it isn't great at what it does, but that it isn't that much better than the rest.
The other half is simple.
Every color (sorry colorless) has answers to Cyclonic Rift off the top of my head.
Black? Many lists abuse cards like Inquisition of Kozilek or other discard to remove powerful cards from opposing decks.
Green? Ugh... Yeah, I guess some colors don't have answers...
(Gutteral Response if they ever make hybrid legal in mono-colored xD)
That's all. Thoughts?
3 months ago
Thanks for your Feedback guys.
@Faded In one of my next Updates i will defnitly try to replace some cards with Echoing Truth and/or Into the Roil . Also Wash Out might be a good replacement for some of other removement spells. Warstorm Surge is already replaced with Ashnod's Altar - totale forgot about it. Arjun and Niv-Mizzet will leave the deck for cards from the Mayeboard in a future update. Up to now (only played ~25games) they did nothing for winning a game.
@BloGames2603 because of cutting expensive creatures in future Mindwrack Liege isnt an option then. Because of cards like Coat of Arms, Favorable Winds and Obelisk of Urd Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive isn't an viable option at the moment. If one or two of these cards will leave the deck i will defnitly consider about Tetsuko.
About Toothy, Imaginary Friend Im not sure because he is quite expensive to play and i have not much control about the moment when he dies. Therefore im tending to Chasm Skulker which synergize with cards like Impact Tremors and Goblin Bombardment .
Consecrated Sphinx will definetly find its way in to this deck. But op to now i have only a much cheaber version in Form of Windreader Sphinx . Nezahal, Primal Tide could also be a good replacement - i have to try him.
But why do you think Rhystic Study does not wirk with Propaganda?
3 months ago
Fellow Locust God player and I second the bounce cards as a form of removal. If you have a wheel effect ready then bouncing a problematic permanent is a fantastic, otherwise they can remove an obstacle to winning that turn, i.e. an opponents Propaganda . For bounce I run Disperse , Echoing Truth , Into the Roil and Wash Out .
I found that any card 6 cmc or greater was hard to play as I often wanted to cast The Locust God or if he was already on the field I wanted to play my cheap wheels/draw cards, not a single high cmc card. Specifically Windreader Sphinx & Warstorm Surge and to a lesser extent Arjun, the Shifting Flame & Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind .
Solid deck though, we have a lot of the same core elements. Locust God is awesome, he is one of my favorite decks at the moment.
4 months ago
You have a good point. I might need to run a counterspell package, after all.
So far I plan following:
To be removed:
To be added:
- Wolfir Silverheart - 8/8 that is likely to make another very strong creature, maybe even Surrak, +4/+4. Just found out about this awesome dude.0
- Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - Flash for days, just like Yeva, Nature's Herald , but not only greens. Also, no more counterspells and attack responces.
- Oran-Rief, the Vastwood / Kessig Wolf Run - Pump lands to replace Temple
- Sight of the Scalelords - Buff and Vigilance Enchantment
- Wash Out - Single player (most of the times) boarwipe. Especially good agains token decks since those don't bounce. I also have River's Rebuke , which is tiny cyclonic rift.
What do you think? I definetely need to clear some space, but right now I am not sure what to remove. So this is what I have: Counterspells:Mystic Snake or Frilled Mystic would be better? Boardwipes:
- Scourge of Kher Ridges
- Nightshade Peddler to pair with Harbinger of the Hunt though inconsistent (2-card combo without tutoring), can be devastating
- Volcanic Fallout
- Temur Sabertooth - Good boardwipe protection, but costly.
- Paleoloth will bring stuff back if they die.
- Impervious Greatwurm - 16/16 indestructible with convoke only for 10.
- Soul of New Phyrexia - Indestruct for all.
- Reins of Power - I actually like the idea of bamboozling the opponent.
I don't run tutors not because they are expensive (Though Wordly Tutor, Gamble and Mystic Tutor are fairly affordable as an upgrade), I don't want to make deck too (uhh) strong. I made Lavinia, Azorius Renegade deck which revolves around getting Knowledge Pool out, and if I draw one of the artifact tutors and have anti-counter in hand, I win, it's only a matter of time. Which is nice to spook new players, but not that great when I play N'th game with same people.
4 months ago
Gidgetimer Valid points about this being a "Tokens deck".
I'm also keen to test out the new card from RNA Unbreakable Formation .
Relooking at the strategy through the "token lens", I may be trying out Eerie Interlude and Unbreakable Formation . The former still offers protection against mass bounce effects (e.g. Cyclonic Rift , Evacuation , Wash Out , Engulf the Shore ) and the option to select which creature(s) I blink grants me the flexibility to protect my key non-token creatures from single target exile spells.
5 months ago
So you say this is supposed to be a tempo deck, but I really don’t see that many ways to get ahead on tempo. I don’t know the number of colors in your pod, but Wash Out can usually let me get ahead of one opponent. Likewise River's Rebuke . Also I think you’ll find that playing more creatures that already have flash will leave you more flexible when your commander dies. Like if your meta has a lot of tokens Crafty Cutpurse would be great
I have a raff list that’s a little more geared to control, just because I wanted a deck that could play some 6 cmc counters.
5 months ago
I just recently built this deck and and have been play testing it for a bit.
Unblockables and ninjas go hand in hand for getting pokes in however once the ninjas are on the table in becomes very hard for them to repeatedly connect turn after turn as they are quite weak. Cards like Wingcrafter, Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive, Thassa, God of the Sea, Wonder, Key to the City, Cover of Darkness, and Shizo, Death's Storehouse can all grant evasion to your ninjas after they've landed.
The other way to help your ninjas get through is by resetting them by bouncing them to hand and re ninjitsuing them in. You can return them via board wipes like Whelming Wave, Coastal Breach, Devastation Tide, and Wash Out or you can pick them up one at a time via Quickling, Cavern Harpy, Faerie Impostor, Equilibrium, etc. The latter is more mana intensive and cards that are required to have other creatures in play can be clunky so be warned.
Lastly a hidden tech I haven't seen anyone using: Dawn of the Dead. Thanks to it's old text we can avoid the downside of exiling our reanimated creature by making sure it isn't in play during the end step by picking it up with ninjitsu.
This Yuriko Primer helped me a ton while building my deck. There are tons of tips and tricks discussed in these forums such as using Emerge, exploit, and other niche cards.
Wash Out occurrence in decks from the last year
Commander / EDH:
All decks: 0.01%