Why are Mardu colors so tough to build?
Modern forum
Posted on Dec. 9, 2015, 11:40 p.m. by benelas16
We get all the best removal, yet...our decks lack ooomph. We don't get a Rhino, or a goyf.
golgarigirl says... #3
If by 'ooomph' you mean 'traditionally giant beatsticks', then green gets better ones for the most part, yes. But Griselbrand, Thundermaw Hellkite, and Sun Titan are plenty of 'oomph' if you ask me.
December 10, 2015 12:12 a.m.
awesomeragle says... #4
I tried a mardu build once. I used hand disruption and removal to control the game, effects like lingering souls to get ahead, and hard to remove threats like Linvala, Keeper of Silence and Hero of Bladehold to win the game. The problem I had was I was a deck that wanted to be midrange, but lacked the creatures to do so. As such I had to be a control deck that ran sub optimal late game bombs. That is why there arent many Mardu lists running around.
December 10, 2015 12:26 a.m.
Mardu DOES have Pia and Kiran now, though it's not the best without access to blue for rise/fall...and we have Tasigur and Gurmag, but we can't activate Tasigur and we can't fill our yard with enough proficiency to abuse either him or the fish :(What was said befor was pretty spot on, we just end up being a control deck with big clunky finishers jammed in...
December 10, 2015 12:42 a.m.
Mardu Tokens sounds sweet when you stop and think about it. You get Bitterblossom, Young Pyromancer, and Lingering Souls all in a deck with tons of removal/burn spells.
December 10, 2015 1:14 a.m.
The main recurring issue is that Mardu has relatively few bombs to close a game out with. That said, a token build that leverages the talents of Dark Confidant, Monastery Mentor, and Young Pyromancer for value could be quite potent.
December 10, 2015 1:21 a.m.
Mardu Token ControlHere is a list I have had for a long time now
December 10, 2015 1:29 a.m.
A pro or two needs to prove to R&D that they could pose a threat to existing strategies and help keep them in check if they were to get x card that did x for x strategy..
Otherwise.. R&D are all hoo-mong...
December 10, 2015 3:22 a.m.
EpicFreddi says... #10
My friend played a sweet mardu mentor list in modern on GP Brussels on a side event. He had to drop because of reasons but I was certain he wold do Top16 for sure. It resolved around Mentor and Pyromancer, within a control shell. I'll ask him for the list, maybe it's still in one piece.
December 10, 2015 5:59 a.m.
It's very simple really. Mardu lacks a good two mana creature that is equally good at attacking or blocking. Everyone falls into the trap of looking at 3 and 4 mana beaters. It doesn't work. A good midrange deck wants to be casting a creature and a removal spell every turn. Abzan and Jund can do that from T4 onwards with ease. Mardu cannot do that because all its threats cost too much mana. This means the deck traditionally lacks tempo and fails to pressure the opponent in a timely manner.
December 10, 2015 10:30 a.m.
You can play mardu as a bad control deck or you can play it as a bad aggro deck but it doesn't effectively do both simultaneously so it never achieves midrange status.
December 10, 2015 10:33 a.m.
awesomeragle says... #15
ChiefBell you are spot on. That is what I was trying to say in my earlier post but lacked the ability to say it as eloquently as you. There needs to be a good two drop printed in modern for mardu to be good. It would probably need to be 
as to not push jund or abzan over the top and create a viable mardu deck. I am unsure of what such a creature would look like, but one is needed for this archetype to be viable.
December 10, 2015 11:09 a.m.
Given the color combination in question, I'd wager a 3/1 or 3/2 first strike vigilance creature for would be in line with color pie expectations as well as fairly strong. It would stonewall aggro decks hard in combat, and provide a solid clock offensively.
December 10, 2015 11:12 a.m.
MattTheNinja says... #17
You get Grave Titan as a good finisher. Batterskull is also an option.
December 10, 2015 11:56 a.m.
GreenGhost says... #18
I think a 3/1 first strike vigilance would be too strong for R/W. Maybe if it were just a 2/2, but at that point I just don't think it would be good enough.
December 10, 2015 12:04 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #19
Here's my Mardu Prowess list... Prowess
Accorder Paladin seems like a legit beat stick.
December 10, 2015 12:21 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #20
Let me condense the entire dilemma into one fact: All Mardu manlands die to bolt. Seems like an over-simplification right? It's not. It's an ongoing theme here. What do other midrange/control decks do when they're facing an opponent with loads of removal? They get in there with thier manlands which happen to be about as efficient as everything else. It's not in our cards though. That's okay.
December 10, 2015 12:26 p.m.
awesomeragle says... #21
I think I've figured it out... 3/1 vigilance, protection from red and white. Doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile proof, cant be Terminated, stonewalls burn and the non Wild Nacatl portion of zoo, and walks right past Siege Rhino when it matters.
Sorry for brainstorming on this one, I like the process of designing cards even if I am not good at it.
December 10, 2015 1 p.m.
ChiefBell awesomeragle VampireArmy Dalektable What about Porcelain Legionnaire I like the idea of accorder paladin though
December 10, 2015 1:11 p.m.
awesomeragle says... #23
I will admit I have always liked Porcelain Legionnaire, but he has several issues with him. The two big ones are; he is a two drop with the downside of losing 2 life, and he dies to literally every playable removal spell imaginable, and several unplayable ones. Not exactly a resilient threat. Accorder Paladin has a similar issue of dying to everything ever, with the additional downside of being a vanilla 3/1 unless you have several other creatures that want to enter the red zone with him. If mardu wants to do the midrange thing it needs a resilient two drop. I don't think it has to be quite as good as Tarmogoyf, but it should be comparable in power level.
December 10, 2015 1:29 p.m.
Is there nothing...:/ I was thinking about High Priest of Penance
December 10, 2015 1:41 p.m.
awesomeragle says... #26
High Priest of Penance has the same issue as before of dying to your opponent looking at it questioningly. It also doesn't do anything on its own, I mean seriously, are you planning to ever attack with this? No, It is is doomed to forever being a bitch blocker. Usually blocking their most threatening creature, then usually targeting said largest threat to kill it, so in most cases it is actually a worse Typhoid Rats. To make it better you need to warp your entire deck strategy around it to give it indestructible, then continually ping it. sounds like an awful lot of work for a strategy that does not just win the game.
December 10, 2015 1:54 p.m.
High Priest of Penance is decent defensively, but it can't turn the corner on an empty board and start closing out a game the way Tarmogoyf does, and dies to a stiff breeze. You need something that can stonewall attackers, be (somewhat) resistant to removal, and is offensively potent enough that it can do stuff if you play it in topdeck mode.
December 10, 2015 2:15 p.m. Edited.
Again, as I said, something that attacks and defends. You need like a 2 mana 2/4 or something. That would be passable. If it had vigilance it wouldnt be bad.
December 10, 2015 3:35 p.m.
If Wall of Omens and Fleecemane Lion can be a thing for 2 mana, I can see a 2/4 vigilance for . Burn would hate that card so much.
December 10, 2015 4:06 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #30
Well white does have Brimaz, King of Oreskos which fits all these needs save costing 3 cmc.
I've been running the card as a 4 of, a firm believer in it. They either kill it or it takes over the game (why I run 4).
December 10, 2015 4:19 p.m.
It's very, very good but:
a) Legendary
and
b) 3 mana
December 10, 2015 4:39 p.m.
Huge difference between CMC2 and 3, especially on the midrange deck's curve. Turn 2 and Turn 4 are often your best opportunities to turn the corner from defense into offense. For example, you land a T1 Inquisition of Kozilek, see that your opponent has no removal, then land a T2 Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant. Alternatively, you T1 IoK, T2 Terminate, T3 Liliana of the Veil, and then land a T3 Tarmogoyf/Lightning Bolt combo along with a tapped Raging Ravine to impose a quick clock. Can't do that with a 3-drop, and that makes the approach more awkward.
December 10, 2015 4:41 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #33
I know it's not relevant in Mardu land but Enter Devouring Light.
Really helps balance the tempo drop with Brimaz, King of Oreskos.
December 10, 2015 4:58 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #34
I know there's all that hubbub about "Is Stoneforge Mystic going to be unbanned?" and I think if it is, Mardu Midrange will become viable.
I think the 2 drops are fine at attacking, but not great at blocking. Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer, Abbot of Keral Keep, and Monastery Mentor are definitely not good at defense. They can chump fine, but other then that, they kinda suck.
Personally, I wonder why Brimaz, King of Oreskos doesn't see more modern play in general. He dodges bolt and is efficient at attacking and not bad at blocking (there is a little to be desired with the blocking, but he holds up well enough there).
December 10, 2015 6:44 p.m.
It's because none of the tiered decks wants to come up with the to actually cast him. If you take a gander at the decks people like to play, only 2 of them (Abzan and 
Control) really use that color, and it's an awkward fit in both of them. Hatebears can make good use of it, but that's pretty much it (and no one plays that deck).
December 10, 2015 10:47 p.m.
I personally have never been sad to flip a Pack Rat mid to late game, especially with five mana open. And Heaven help you if I have a live Bob out ('course, im prolly winning anyway then.)
December 11, 2015 12:23 a.m.
But then I've never been sad to flip a tarmogoyf with 2 mana open, or 3, or 4, or 5 et. Because its such a cheap and versatile card it can help me whether I'm ahead or behind and from T3 onwards I can cast both it AND a path.
That's where midrange wants to be:
T1 Thoughtseize
T2 Abrupt Decay or Tarmogoyf (matchup dependent)
T3 threat and control spell
T4 threat and control spell
T5 threat and control spell
etc.
December 11, 2015 5:30 a.m.
awesomeragle says... #38
ChiefBell knows what he is talking about here. Pack Rat is not good on turns 2-4. It is also not great on turn 5 where it is supposedly at its best. Tarmogoyf is good almost all of the time. Mardu simply has zero versatile threats for 2 mana that can play a solid defense game. That is the entire problem. So until a 2 drop is printed in these colors that actually does that there will never be a Jund/Abzan like Mardu deck.
December 11, 2015 7:36 a.m.
The closest I can think of to a playable 2 drop for Mardu is only good if you are heavy into burn.
Soulfire Grand Master
- 2-drop 2/2 lifelink is 'okay' as an attacker or blocker in the early game... but not 'great' by any means.
- Giving your burn spells lifelink is good at all times, but not really as aggressive as you would like.
- Being able to 'repeat' your removal in the late game is powerful... and if the removal is burn, you are gaining life to keep your edge.
Again, not quite what Mardu needs, but is as close as it currently gets.
December 11, 2015 9:29 a.m. Edited.
I maintain that a 2 mana threat that passes the bolt test is all they need. Even if it does only have 2 power.
December 11, 2015 10 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #41
I feel perhaps it's more of the lack of Abrupt Decay than lack of Tarmogoyf. Disenchant is nowhere near the same power level.
Oblivion Ring subs for Maelstrom Pulse just fine.
December 11, 2015 11:59 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ I'd compare Dsphere to maelstrom pulse before O-ring. Maybe Quarantine Field. Those are besides the point though, mardu represents aggro, and the fastest of all the aggro. Im wondering if we're looking at this the wrong way...
December 11, 2015 12:51 p.m.
awesomeragle says... #43
APPLE01DOJ mardu colors have the best removal period. Path to Exile, Terminate, Dismember, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Go for the Throat, Wear / Tear, Kolaghan's Command, the list really does go on. The only portion of the removal spectrum that mardu lacks is specifically "Can't be countered" removal.
Yes, Mardu has a creature issue around the 2 drop area. It does not have a removal spell problem.
December 11, 2015 1:01 p.m.
Abrupt Decay is the best removal spell in modern, hands down. Because it hits literally every type of permanent. Liliana of the Veil? Sure. Cranial Plating? Yup.
Though mardu has access to the second best, third best, fourth best, fifth best etc.
December 11, 2015 1:25 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #45
You missed the point completely.
ChiefBell understood it perfectly though.
Not a single thing you listed hits Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge (save Kolaghan's Command) both of which are huge at the moment...
December 11, 2015 1:57 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ Then we build around the removal right? We build young pyromancer and prowess triggers
December 11, 2015 2:17 p.m.
Semi related question: Will an unbanning of Misty have a huge effect on those running Mardu? Stoneforge Mystic obviously needs to be built around, but theres a lot of rumblings since the promo spoil and Ive bought a few in speculation. Any thoughts on running an equipment package in a grindy midrange or control build being tier worthy?
Gidgetimer says... #2
Because the Mardu colors lend themselves to either control or aggro, never midrange. Siege Rhino and Tarmogoyf are for midrange green decks, that is kinda green's thing.
December 10, 2015 12:03 a.m.