What are the pros and cons of mono red goblins versus red black goblins?
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Sept. 2, 2019, 12:28 a.m. by Travenura
Hello, sorry if I posted in the wrong place, I'm still navigating this site.
So, I generally want to know what would splashing a second color into a goblin deck would do, specifically, red and black.
I know there's access to dreadbore, spike jester, frogtosser banneret and etc. if I splash black. But does that slow my deck down? Goblin chieftain costs 1RR (sorry if I formatted that wrong), and the only dual land I think is worth running (in my opinion, which is uneducated and biased towards budget cards) is dragonskull summit.
If I don't splash black, the mana base will only have to consist of mountains and maybe some other lands. Thus, there is no need for mana fixing, it's a matter of getting the right amount of mana you need. I might've confused such terms, I hope you still know what I mean.
To be specific, what strengths other than the consistent mana base of a mono red deck have over a rakdos deck?
I'd like to know the reverse as well: What strengths will come from a rakdos goblin deck that the mono red deck can't do or sucks at?
Thank you for reading.
multimedia says... #3
If you have to the funds to get more Rakdos dual lands than just Dragonskull then I think Munitions Expert is a good reason to play Rakdos over Mono Red. Unearth can also be powerful with Goblins. Duress is a good budget sideboard card.
4x Dragonskull is not enough dual lands to play black with Goblins. You'll want minimum 12x Rakdos dual lands to consistently play Munitions Expert. Some budget options are Foreboding Ruins , Unclaimed Territory , some Smoldering Marsh .
Example budget manabase:
- 4x Dragonskull
- 4x Ruins
- 2x Territory
- 2x Marsh
- 1x Swamp
- 9x Mountain
This is by no means an ideal manabase, but it's budget. If on a low budget and can't afford all these Rakdos dual lands then Mono Red is the better option. Just play Mountains, don't have to worry about getting dual lands. Can instead use those funds for more higher priced Goblins such as Goblin Piledriver .
September 2, 2019 3:04 a.m. Edited.
The biggest reason is actually Sling-Gang Lieutenant which is a crucial source of finishing power. Additionally, you get access to Knucklebone Witch which is incredibly powerful for a 1 drop in the mid game.
September 2, 2019 3:36 a.m.
lagotripha says... #5
In terms of budget lands, Graven Cairns is cheap because of multiple printings, and fixes both ways instantly. Foreboding ruins, dragonskull and a couple of these will run fine, even if it doesn't leave space for Ghost Quarter and friends.
When assessing lands its also worth looking at hate cards too- Blood Moon , Ghost Quarter , Field of Ruin etc. Mono red ignores them almost entirely, while the more colour requirements your deck has the more they are punished by them.
That said, Black/red offers a lot in terms of sideboard.
From Thoughtseize / Duress to Kolaghan's Command / Rakdos Charm , tech like Rain of Gore / Everlasting Torment and kill spells like Angrath's Rampage , Dreadbore and Terminate , there are a whole suite of tools that become available. If your meta calls for those tools it can be completely worth it.
In terms of strategy, that toolbox lets you take it to the midgame more consistently. If your idea of goblins is activating krenko, black red is where you want to be, because it can keep him on the field. If you want to rush as fast as possible, the question is whether Munitions Expert and the sideboard tools is good enough to be worth it. Siege as a 4 drop is more suited to a midrange 'value' goblins, which likes saccing goblins for direct damage- but its not the same deck.
September 2, 2019 9:24 a.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd Hello,
Thank you for responding! I appreciate it. I'd like to play aggro goblins, ideally curving out at 4 mana or less.
multimedia I appreciate this. I realized that I could have looked at this website too late.
Boza I see. Thank you! I didn't realize that Sling-Gang Lieutenant was a card to be honest. It sounds fun to build a deck around. Is this a midrange kind of card though? (Additionally: Skirk Prospector looks good with this sacrificing goblins kind of deck. Do you think you could link me a deck you like and tell me why you like it?)
lagotripha, thank you. I know that sideboards are important, so I will keep in mind those options. To be honest I only want to play at FNM tourneys. I know I should try to build a sideboard for all decks because of its versatility, however, I play rather casually (I've heard somewhere that you should try to build a deck like it was 75 cards or something like that, and if I do have the money, I will try to get some of those suggestions and put them in a sideboard). I'd like some clarification as well, though: Which Krenko did you mean? Also, what black goblins/cards should I put in if I choose to go Rakdos aggro goblins? I also assumed that Dreadbore should be a main decked card because it can destroy Liliana of the Veil , which I consider the main nemesis of goblins. (Though that's a different story.)
September 2, 2019 10:23 a.m.
lagotripha says... #7
I was thinking of old krenko, from back when I was still mucking about with goblin lists.
For rakdos aggro, Munitions Expert is the most important as (functionally) extra copies of Goblin Grenade . Earwig Squad and Sling-Gang Lieutenant somewhere in the 75.
Run some tests with spike jester and see if you like it there- I've played it in the past and its fine. Not amazing, just fine. Jund Hackblade is similar, but more conditional, and Goblin Deathraiders is bad. Thats the multicolour goblins covered- its quite unexciting. Mad Auntie is a lord that doesn't offer evasion, and is therefore better as any of the red lords, but might be worth it in a hyper-budget list.
Auntie's Snitch and Squee, Goblin Nabob are an interesting card advantage engine (which is hated out by the same cards as dredge), but can make for a fun Zombie Infestation list. Stinkdrinker Bandit would be good if enough good goblin rogues existed. Warren Weirding is an interesting hybrid removal/token spell, but still sub-par.
With the meta up in the air as far as competitive modern goes, I don't feel too confident getting more specific than 'playtest'.
Stoneforge means plans for a t3 Batterskull are a must, as well as a plan for Ensnaring Bridge (hence me looking at Angrath's Rampage or Rakdos Charm ), but past that just playtest and see what you like. See if any rakdos burn lists show up on a metagame site for you to pinch the sideboard/spells from.
I mean, I'm someone who'd see if Skirk Prospector / Knucklebone Witch / Experimental Frenzy was playable. I'm not sure you should be taking advice from me.
September 2, 2019 11:25 a.m. Edited.
Hi Funkydiscogod!
I didn't know that card existed, but I completely agree with you now!
lagotripha, if you say so. Thank you for commenting :)
September 2, 2019 4:38 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #9
Here is a decent midrange goblin deck. The mana can be made a lot cheaper. But if you want to play midrange goblins, then I wouldn't deviate much from this list. I do think that this list should have either Goblin Cratermaker or Goblin Trashmaster or both in the main deck. Also play all 4 Skirk Prospector . That card is nuts.
The biggest downside to playing this deck on a budget is that you lose Aether Vial .
Do NOT play more spells in this deck. Not even Lightning Bolt or Dreadbore or Goblin Grenade . Spells aren't goblins. You can kill planeswalkers by attacking. You can stop creatures by clogging the board with goblins. You can kill the creatures that really matter with Munitions Expert. You want to have as many targets for Goblin Ringleader as possible.
September 2, 2019 6:18 p.m.
ScionsStillLive says... #10
Mono red aggro gives you a faster deck, but is more open to threats. However, you won't run into problems like having instead of , for example. A Rakdos deck is a bit slower, but allows access to removal, which can help take out a particularly big creature. However, the mana is less consistent which might hinder you in a few games.
September 2, 2019 6:38 p.m.
lagotripha says... #11
For the record, trying to adapt an aether vial midrange goblins list into non-vial means you will need to cheat on mana to play your cards fast enough - More prospectors, More (and I hate to say this) bannerets, and even then you will likely have to up the land count.
If you want a ringleader / Matron list on a budget, I can't reccomend squee / snitch / zombie infestation to clog up the board enough. Its also nice in that the discard lets you run that higher curve while still making bears when you need to.
September 3, 2019 4:32 a.m.
abbatromebone says... #12
- mono red is cheaper to build
- RB is more powerful and allows for stronger cards
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #2
First, I think you've done everything okay. This forum is probably the most appropriate, and your terminology is used correctly. You can format cards by putting double brackets around the card name. Goblin Chieftain . See below.
And you can do mana symbols similarly. .
To answer your question, I need to ask another first. Do you want to play midrange goblins or aggro goblins? Because those are completely different decks. Aggro plays Goblin Bushwhacker , Foundry Street Denizen , and Goblin Grenade . Midrange plays Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader .
September 2, 2019 1:14 a.m. Edited.