MTG was better before the Planeswalkers
General forum
Posted on Jan. 9, 2014, 1:28 p.m. by Link_AJ
I don't really like them at all... I still think they shouldn't have added them to the game.Whenever I play against someone, and suddenly he plays a Planeswalker, I just sigh.
Why do you dislike them? I'm pretty indifferent, but I'm curious why you don't like them.
January 9, 2014 1:32 p.m.
I dunno, most of the time I think they're too strong for their manacost. And also I'm still not used to them being in the game.Also they're just too expensive, making them pay2win cards...Just don't really like them :P
January 9, 2014 1:36 p.m.
I really don't believe in "Pay to Win." I pretty much dominate my meta, and I've probably spent all of $50 on Magic in the last year. I don't care how many Fetchlands you have, a real player can win on skill alone.
That being said, there is sort of a certain minimum quality requirement (Nobody can make Volcanic Hammer good).
Anyway, sorry if that sounded pretentious. It's just a pet peeve of mine when people think how much money you spend decides who wins. I think it's just a way out of accepting a loss.
January 9, 2014 1:39 p.m.
HarbingerJK says... #7
gonna have to agree with Jp3ngu1nb0y on this one. It's a real cop-out to say "oh you just won because you have more expensive cards"
But if you really believe that planeswalker in general are too powerful, then you have forgotten about Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded lol
January 9, 2014 1:44 p.m.
i rant about this all the time, and in fact the only thing i won't allow in my cube is planeswalkers (and Umezawa's Jitte , which i contend is the original planeswalker).
to me, they just generate too much card advantage when compared with normal cards. would you pay 4 mana to brainstorm once a turn? or to put in a 2/2 with haste each turn? or pay 5 to put in a 3/3 each turn? there are obviously cards that do powerful things other than planeswalkers, but i don't think the overall power level is close on average.
they disrupt an entire game. control decks were already a thing before planeswalkers existed. but now, against a control deck, you're forced to overcommit to the battlefield and decide with limited knowledge if you can kill your opponent before their planeswalker kills you or if you need to prioritize the planeswalker. or you play it safe from sweeper effects, and the planeswalker(s) just roll you over in card advantage.
another complaint is the flavor aspect. aren't all magic players "planeswalkers?" in the intro packets in some decks it says "you are a powerful planeswalker, casting spells and battling your friends....." So if my opponent is a planeswalker, and he summons a jace as his planeswalker buddy, can't i just use my Hero's Downfall on my opponent and end the game right there?
lastly, like @link_aj said, they just make me sad. when i cast a planeswalker, i get no enjoyment. haha, i just cast a bomb. deal with it or it'll kill you. gg. then if one is cast against me, it obviously makes me way unhappy. so the upside of playing one myself comes nowhere near the downside of having one played against me.
yes they add complexity, and they are a thing that people love and make wizards a lot of money, but in my opinion there is a ton of other complexity in this game already, and planeswalkers are just poop-heads that kill the fun.
January 9, 2014 1:51 p.m.
Personally, I just started playing magic about a year ago, but I have loved the concept of planeswalkers. They bring a diversity to the game because each is so different. And yes many of them are powerful, they're game changers with multiple interesting abilities and that's why I enjoy them (most of them anyway, looking at you Tibalt). I do however only play standard really, so from a modern or legacy pov it might be different.
January 9, 2014 1:55 p.m.
also, on the pay-to-win comments, it's a two way street. good players are able to determine which cards are good and win tournaments with them. then, once others catch on to what cards are winning tournaments, they buy them and prices increase.
i believe it's possible to spend less than $50 in the past year and dominate your local scene. some of that may have to do with recognizing strong cards before they get popular and picking them up for cheap. another part is that if you are winning, you have more prize packs to crack and pull and trade to maintain your collection and keep the spending of actual dollars to a minimum.
i would argue that if you started from scratch with no previous collection, it would be pretty difficult to dominate a decently sized constructed scene for less than $50. but with smart investing and possibly some intelligent limited play, i suppose it's possible.
January 9, 2014 2 p.m.
Yeah, i started playing magic at the mirrodin series, so there were no planeswalkers back then. then i took a break for a few years, and now i started playing again. a lot of new stuff has happened. also why did they add Mythic Rares? (also why not just call them Mythics)
January 9, 2014 2:08 p.m.
mythic rares exist to have less power bombs (planeswalkers) and less crazy-stupid-expensive build-around-me crap johnny cards (Lich's Mirror , Descent into Madness , Enter the Infinite , etc) in any given limited environment. rares are meant to be generally pretty good, and in limited you don't want too many game-winning bombs or undraftable turds floating around.
as a side-effect, it makes the chase mythics that much more expensive.
or maybe the money one is the main reason and limited is the side-effect, i dunno.
January 9, 2014 2:17 p.m.
If Magic is not pay to win, why do tournament players spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on better cards for better decks?
At the same time, you can spend all the money in the world on a competitive deck and you'll still lose if you're a shit player. Skill matters a lot but a $30 dollar deck will rarely beat an expensive competitive legacy deck.
More on the point, planeswalkers on the whole are not over powered. 90% of the planeswalkers that exist aren't good enough for competitive play, in fact only two are played frequently (Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Liliana of the Veil ). I think those of you saying they are all bombs are generalizing too much. Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded is a bomb? Jace Beleren is a bomb? Garruk Wildspeaker is a bomb?
January 9, 2014 2:17 p.m.
We do just call them mythics generally. They introduced them to earn more money. Because they're rarer they're harder to get and so you need to buy more boosters.
Anyway, no I don't feel that Planeswalkers are overpowered. There are many competitive decklists that run none. I barely ever use them and do well whenever I play. They're just.....fine.
January 9, 2014 2:17 p.m.
@evendryke - you listed the two most common planeswalkers in eternal play (jace in legacy and lilly in modern and legacy). one of the most important factors in those formats is cmc, and you're right that most planeswalkers are too expensive (cmc) to play in eternal formats.
in standard constructed, i would say the statement of 90% of planeswalkers not being good enough for constructed play is incorrect. in the current standard, i would say i've seen at least 8 out of 14 in competitive decklists at one time or another.
no one said every planeswalker is a bomb. hopefully no one honestly thinks tibalt is a bomb. jace and garruk both saw play in standard.
There are many competitive decks that don't run planeswalkers, because the right planeswalker doesn't exist for the synergy of the deck. legacy pox didn't run planeswalkers, until Liliana of the Veil was printed. r/g or naya creature aggro decks never ran planeswalkers, until Domri Rade .
also my friend runs Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker in his Progenitus edh deck, and that guy is just a dick.
January 9, 2014 2:38 p.m.
I'm not saying the cards don't matter, just that when people pin a loss solely on them they're just making excuses. I'd say it's about 60% skill, %30 cards, and 10% luck.
January 9, 2014 2:41 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #18
shuflw" i get no enjoyment. haha, i just cast a bomb. deal with it or it'll kill you. gg.""
I could use this argument with any bomb. AEtherling comes to mind when applying this to standard. There are cards that easily remove planewalkers too, so it's fairly balanced, you just need to be prepared, or learn from past experience.
"they disrupt an entire game. control decks were already a thing before planeswalkers existed. but now, against a control deck, you're forced to overcommit to the battlefield and decide with limited knowledge if you can kill your opponent before their planeswalker kills you or if you need to prioritize the planeswalker. "
Counter spells also disrupt the game, boardwipes, discard, haste, double strike, first strike ect. These cards are designed to act as a means to supplement your board state. However, they can be undone. Standard has answers and if you play Modern you have even more answers. As to control, If a control player is hoping to win via Planeswalker as a main win con I would be concerned. They do pose a threat, but they also become a huge target. Modern control decks usually run various win cons to force the opponent's resources to the limit.
January 9, 2014 2:49 p.m.
i agree with the first statement. bombs are bombs, sometimes you can deal, sometimes you lose. there are cards that deal with planeswalkers, but not quite as many as deal with other troublesome permanents. AEtherling is up there with the strongest creatures because of all of its abilities.
"As to control, If a control player is hoping to win via Planeswalker as a main win con I would be concerned. They do pose a threat, but they also become a huge target. "
becoming a hug target is one of the purposes of a planeswalker, especially for control decks. i can ignore your AEtherling and try to gain some life or just straight up race you to the finish if i can't deal with it. it's a bit harder to race your elspeth pooping three chumps a turn, or your jace that shrinks all of my attackers. if i take a turn to deal with your planeswalker, that's a turn the control player has to not get attacked, or not take a burn spell, or can take a Hero's Downfall out of my hand that i can't use on AEtherling next turn. killing a creature with a removal spell is (usually) a 1-for-1. killing a planeswalker is pretty much always at least a 1-for-2. you get the pw ability, plus you force them to use a removal spell, or essentially cast a Fog if they have to spend a turn attacking the pw.
i'm not arguing that planeswalkers are the biggest bombs and best magic cards and every deck should max out on them. i'm just saying that for me they are not fun to play with or against.
January 9, 2014 3:06 p.m.
exarkun809 says... #20
I agree with points on both sides. I think for me the reason I lean against PWs is that I really dislike them in limited where there are little to no answers for them. Resolving an Elspeth (any of em) is 99% game (maybe 75% for Tibalt) over. I understand that's part of the reason why they're so rare (the other part is they're a new source to generate $), but it almost makes it suck that much more when that 1 guy just wins the draft because he cracked one (I may or may not have just lost a Theros draft to Elspeth, Sun's Champion resolving in games 1 and 3 while crushing my opponent game 2).
They also just kind of feel like an odd cousin to all other magic cards. All other cards are very straightforward (although rules text obviously can get complicated). Lands. Instants/Sorceries. Artifacts/Enchantments. Creatures. ...Planeswalkers?
ALL that being said, I DO run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker in my EDH deck :) I've embraced them, but I can't say I'm a huge fan.
January 9, 2014 3:06 p.m.
"Would you pay 4 mana to brainstorm every turn?"
January 9, 2014 3:08 p.m.
"Would you pay 4 mana to brainstorm every turn?"
Lightning Bolt
January 9, 2014 3:13 p.m.
Didgeridooda says... #23
It took me a while to get used to them. They add a new dimension to the game, and I personally think that is is a huge part of the resurgence of Magic. There was a down time for a while, then it exploded again. I think that planeswalkers may have contributed to it. I thought they were too good at first when I saw them, but after playing against them, I learned how to deal with them. Then I started playing with them.
January 9, 2014 3:15 p.m.
Pay 6 mana and a card, or 4 mana, two cards and a life to get a second brainstorm later and rob me of a 1 cmc instant? Good deal!
January 9, 2014 3:15 p.m.
exarkun809 says... #26
If there were a Chandra that cost 4 and Lightning Bolt 'd every turn for nothing all hell would break loose Devonin
January 9, 2014 3:18 p.m.
Pithing Needle can take out any PW, they're just another addition to magic, enchantments are hard to get rid of for certain colors, and ANY color can take out a PW.
Thus they should give a reward for using them, in the story they're powerful as hell and so their strength in the game fits, even thought most aren't strong at all.
You cant take out a an artifact, or an enchantment, or prevent instants and sorcerys if you only run vanilla creatures in your deck, but you can still take out a PW and block creatures.
On to the pay to play argument, I believe its mostly skill and luck that takes place in magic.
You're using a mono-red with 40 Lightning Bolt s and 20 Mountain , while your opponent is running 40 Liliana of the Dark Realms and 20 Swamp , who wins this duel?
You're running 45 Storm Crow and 15 Island and your opponent is running 60 Jace, the Mind Sculptor , no land, who wins this one?
You're running you're standard deck, and your opponent is running their modern deck, BUT your opponent mulligans to 1, who wins?
Magic is only pay to play if you aren't creative and cant take a loss.
January 9, 2014 3:47 p.m.
The only way a walker actually becomes a value for what they do is when they live for at least 2 turns and get 2 activations.
Just look at Elspeth, Sun's Champion . Six drop for 3 dudes or a wrath is okay, and she would need to be protected for the next couple turns from damage in order to get value for your 6 mana.
I do get why people would definitely hate on them since they do a lot of things for "free." But the fact that ever since they were printed, there has been a plethora of ways, direct or indirect, to deal with them.
An analogy I like to think of is that they're like quarterbacks: they're the superstars and the target of the opposing team when out there, but needs the support of the rest of the team in order to function optimally. I frankly like the addition of the Planeswalker card for the added depth in the thought process when playing and creating a deck.
January 9, 2014 4:24 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #29
I personally love planeswalkers.
They're flavorful incarnations of important characters in the multiverse.
They take skill to play correctly and they are not unstoppable.
They contribute to your strategy in tangible ways and while they are technically inherently card advantage they're not auto-includes in any deck. You should run stuff that generates card advantage for you anyway...
If one gets beaten by any permanent singlehandedly I wouldnt necessarily criticize your opponents deck/cards...
January 9, 2014 4:24 p.m.
@MindAblaze!: What do you mean? AEtherling "beats" people by itself, but in order to use it, every other card would've already done its thing. Would that be singlehandedly?
In answer to the OP, I like planeswalkers personally, and they appeal to everyone. To a Spike, you get planeswalkers that will break the game. To a Timmy, they're big bombs that do big things. To a Johnny, some have insane combo potential (Doubling Season and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage .
January 9, 2014 4:34 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #31
Maybe I'm blind, but I fail to see how Doubling Season and Tamiyo, the Moon Sage is a combo Matsi883.
January 9, 2014 4:56 p.m.
@Femme_Fatale Tamiyo ETBs with enough loyalty to fire off the emblem right away.
3UU for "You have no maximum hand size, and any time a card would go to your GY it goes to your hand instead" is pretty solid.
January 9, 2014 4:57 p.m.
It's more of an enabler, but cast tamiyo with doubling season out, she can be ult'd that turn. GY replacement in effect right away. But this is true of most planeswalker.
January 9, 2014 4:58 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #35
Oh! I forgot about the ETB effects of planeswalkers and their loyalty tokens. That explains it.
January 9, 2014 5 p.m.
strateupjee says... #36
He means they have combo potential.
On the subject of planeswalkers being unfair... do you play magic? How was Thragtusk fair? How was Unburial Rites fair? Plainswalkers have inherent limits on them for a reason... being able to be burned or Hero's Downfall 'd/Dreadbore d. They can be attacked, they can be Pithing Needle d. There are so many options to deal with them, they are kind of a liability if they are your only way to win. I honestly think that if you don't like planeswalkers just because they are "bombs" or make the game "unwinnable", you simply need to improve how you play. I'm sorry if that is offensive or blunt, but I mean come on. I started playing in the Scars block, and I was excited as all get out when I saw planeswalkers because they are an extra level of depth to the game, the options they provide is awesome. So again, if you think that they make the game unfun, either play casual, or change how you play, because they are a big part of the game now, and they aren't going anywhere.
On the comment of magic being "pay to win"... really? How many times have I read that? Literally any competitive game, be it sports, video games, or a card game, has parts of it that people will pay extra for to get an edge. In baseball, you buy the nicest bat to get the furthest hit. In professional Call of Duty, you buy the nicest controllers, TV, and headset so you can get the edge. In magic, you buy the nicest cards to get that leg up over everyone else. If you want to win, you have to pay, that is how the world works. Now I know that there are budget decks that can win, like RDW for example. However, if you don't want to play RDW, and you play MBD, but you don't want to pay, you can't expect it to play like a professional level deck. When you use Insatiable Harpy instead of Desecration Demon , and you use Read the Bones instead of Underworld Connections , you simply aren't going to win as many games as the deck with money in it. The reason cards are expensive is because they have been proven to be good. They have won. So if you want to play the deck that will win, either pay for it, or find a way to play a deck that is cheap and wins, and I wish you the best of luck.
I'm sorry for the block of text, but I really don't like it when people complain about these aspects of magic. When I started playing, I thought the same thing, until I started playing competitively and matured a bit. I also want to point out that I play on an extreme budget, however through active trading and smart deals, I have accumulated a collection large enough for me to be playing a tournament ready Mono-Black Devotion, and I paid nothing for it out of pocket. Food for thought.
January 9, 2014 5:18 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #37
@ Matsi883
Just because AEtherling deals the death blow doesn't mean it beat you by itself. Even Jace, the Mind Sculptor can't be dropped onto the field with no support and win you the game. If the argument is that PWs are so OP that they beat you on their own, then there's a bit of ignorance to the idea that they were probably being beaten when the walker hit the board
January 9, 2014 5:22 p.m.
That was what I was looking for, MindAblaze!. Thank you.
January 9, 2014 5:23 p.m.
patrickloyd says... #39
i love planeswalkers Chandra, Pyromaster is awsome. Jace, Memory Adept is a cool mill jace. and if you do not like the stock pile on Hero's Downfall
January 9, 2014 5:42 p.m.
"On the subject of planeswalkers being unfair... do you play magic? How was Thragtusk fair? How was Unburial Rites fair?"
"I honestly think that if you don't like planeswalkers just because they are "bombs" or make the game "unwinnable", you simply need to improve how you play."
no one said any of this. who are you arguing with?
"I started playing in the Scars block, and I was excited as all get out when I saw planeswalkers because they are an extra level of depth to the game, the options they provide is awesome."
if you started in scars block, you can't really know what magic was like before planeswalkers. so maybe you'd prefer magic without them, you just don't know it?
"I'm sorry for the block of text, but I really don't like it when people complain about these aspects of magic."
if you don't like it, why click on a thread with that subject?
"When I started playing, I thought the same thing, until I started playing competitively and matured a bit."
obviously not that much.
January 9, 2014 5:56 p.m.
strateupjee says... #41
That is how it came off, and I don't know how magic was before planeswalkers, you are right, however I really wouldn't say I don't want them to be played. I use them, most everyone at my LGS uses them, I have seen them played my entire magic career, and I don't think that should change. And I clicked on the thread to leave my opinion, is that not what you are asking for when you post a question on a forum to a community? Lastly, are you questioning my maturity? Because that is uncalled for.
January 9, 2014 7:11 p.m.
JimothyCrikkett says... #42
If we're still going on about "unfair" planeswalkers...
Uhh, Karn Liberated is pretty damn unfair, though fun. Starting with 6 charge counters and spiking up easily means he'll shrug off damage.
That, and his ult means his controller will be starting a fresh game against everyone, but with all their exiled permanents. Holy hell. If that's not broken, I don't know what is.
January 9, 2014 7:18 p.m.
strateupjee says... #43
Yes there are broken planeswalkers, Karn is a big one, as is JTMS, and they are still defining meta's, however isn't Stoneforge Mystic and True-Name Nemesis doing the same thing? Isnt AEtherling a go-to, pseudo-unkillable finisher for Control? There are a lot of "broken" mechanics and permanents in magic, there have to be to set the power level.
January 9, 2014 7:23 p.m.
There really isn't much to say that hasn't been said already. Karn isn't necessarily broken, but he is if you work with ramp. But, like many cards, he's absolutely broken in the right deck. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn isn't broken in RDW, but it is broken in Elf Ramp. Likewise, Karn Liberated isn't broken in aggro or midrange, but he is in Urzatron or most control.
The point I'm getting at is that yes, there are very powerful cards out there. BUT. They don't define the outcome of the game on their own. Each card requires other cards that work well with it in order to be as good as possible. This can be seen with cards being banned in a format. Some deck types may fall away, while others will adapt. The ones that fall away were built completely around it, breaking its boundaries. The ones that adapted had it in for support and didn't really need it there anyway. For an example, comparing the banning of Second Sunrise and Bloodbraid Elf . Egg decks didn't recover from losing the vital Sunrise, but Jund decks just found an alternative for the Elf in cards like Huntmaster of the Fells Flip .
January 9, 2014 8:07 p.m.
lookoutimscary says... #45
Sure MTG has a little bit of pay-to-win, but honestly what competitive card game/sport doesn't? On the subject of Planeswalkers, first of they were in Mirrodin block and secondly they aren't overpowered in any way, THERE'S PLENTY OF REMOVAL! Beast Within Hero's Downfall etc. Or you can just attack them. Or stop Complaining..
January 9, 2014 9:04 p.m.
lookoutimscary, They were in SCARS of Mirrodin, but not the original Mirrodin. And keep in mind that there are answers to literally everything, so saying that you can't complain because answers exist isn't a valid argument.
January 9, 2014 9:06 p.m.
lookoutimscary says... #47
Ok acbooster I didn't realize which block he was talking about Senior Smartass and yes there are answers to everything..doesn't that support my argument more than yours
January 9, 2014 9:14 p.m.
You're both arguing that planeswalkers aren't overpowered? Why are you arguing?
January 9, 2014 9:16 p.m.
"Stop complaining" is never a valid argument. Anyone may complain as much as they want about anything for any reason.
That said, I can't really complain about planeswalkers. I don't really like them much. I don't use them - o.k. I have a singleton copy of Liliana of the Dark Realms in my mono-black devotion deck, and I sometimes stick a single Ajani Vengeant in a Modern Boros or Naya build, but those two and one of the Chandras are the only planeswalkers I own.
I find them annoying to play against, but it's not much different from being on the other side of a powerful enchantment or artifact. The upside is that I can always Lightning Bolt or Dreadbore or swarm-o-creatures a planeswalker of the board. I rarely include much anti-enchantment or anti-artifact tech in my decks.
I've been playing the game for 20 years, so planeswalkers still seem like a very new thing to me.
Dagnabbit, you kids! Stay off my lawn!
January 9, 2014 9:43 p.m.
hungerwolf says... #50
Yeah, they're pretty much time bombs. You pretty much have to focus them unless you run black, or you automatically lose when they drop their big ability. It's not much fun to see a literal timer come up on the game- You have this many turns, and if you can't commit to an attack that will destroy the planeswalker, GG. It's kind of implemented stupidly.
erabel says... #2
Well, the good part about that is: If one of your opponents plays a Planeswalker, you can send all your creatures at it to kill it.
January 9, 2014 1:32 p.m.