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mafteechr
11 July 2011
11628 views
11 July 2011
11628 views
M12 is right around the corner, and the popular opinion is that the core set is rather lackluster. To each their own, but there are definitely some neat cards in the set. One card in particular has been noticed and making its way around Tapped Out.
The ability seems simple enough, but it has some complicated implications leading to interesting combos. I'm here to go over some of these and explain exactly how and why they work.
We'll start with the most popular combo, which is combining Sundial of the Infinite with MImic Vat. What does it do? It allows your tokens to stay on the battlefield indefinitely. Let's jump in to how this combo works, then why it works.
During your turn, you activate MImic Vat's second ability and put a token of the imprinted creature on the battlefield. Then, during your end step, the triggered ability to exile the token is placed on the stack. In response, you activate Sundial of the Infinite. After it resolves, it exiles all abilities on the stack and the token remains on the battlefield indefinitely.
Sounds too simple, right? As if something has to be wrong? The most common argument I hear is that the token will then be exiled during the next end step. Well, we need to understand a few rules and notice the timing of play.
MImic Vat's second ability creates a delayed triggered ability, which will go on the stack at a specified time. One rule in particular is important to why this combo works:
603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once - the next time its trigger event occurs - unless it has a stated duration, such as "this turn."
Thus, when you exile the delayed triggered ability from the stack, it will never again trigger. Additionally, it is key to note the timing of the activation of Sundial of the Infinite. You must wait until the end step when MImic Vat's delayed triggered ability is put on the stack to activate it. This satisfies the complaint that the end step hasn't occurred so it will trigger on the next end step.
Another combo piece is Glimmerpoint Stag. I will not go into detail, because it is the exact same as MImic Vat, since it, too, creates a delayed triggered ability. Use these two together (imprint Glimmerpoint Stag with MImic Vat) and you can permanently exile a permanent every turn. This is possible since both MImic Vat and Glimmerpoint Stag's delayed triggered abilities go on the stack at the same time and you can then exile them both with Sundial of the Infinite.
I'm going to stop briefly before moving on to address something asked of me a few times. I have had a few members ask me how to best explain this as a judge of an event. What I recommend is the shortest and easiest explanation, which is as follows:
The exile part of the ability is a delayed triggered ability. It goes on the stack during the end step, and is then exiled by Sundial of the Infinite. Delayed triggered abilities trigger once and only once, so it will never trigger again.
This should address the main complaints. Hopefully with the knowledge and thorough explanation given, you'll be able to address any further specific concerns.
Now, the last combo involves multiple cards.
What do you get with this? Exiling a permanent every turn. This one is a little bit more difficult to explain (even I didn't think it worked at first glance), but we'll get through it. The reasons are similar to the ones given above, but timing is different.
During your main phase, you cast Oblivion Ring. You allow it to resolve so you can exile a permanent. Then, during your second main phase (after you've done anything else you want to do), you exile Oblivion Ring with Venser, the Sojourner. After this resolves, Oblivion Ring's "leave the battlefield" ability triggers and goes on the stack. At this point (which is during the second main phase), you activate Sundial of the Infinite, leaving the permanent exiled by Oblivion Ring in exile permanently.
But wait. Isn't Oblivion Ring exiled forever, too? Well, if you look at Venser, the Sojourner's ability, it has a delayed triggered ability which returns Oblivion Ring at the next end step. It is here you should note that the turn was ended by Sundial of the Infinite during the second main phase. Thus, the end step never occurred and the delayed triggered ability never triggered. Oblivion Ring will still return to the battlefield during the next end step, which happens to be your opponent's. It is all about timing.
I hope this sheds light on the combos for everyone. I'd like to thank deventio7 for bringing this card to my attention. After I saw his deck (which theemptyquiver referred me to, thank you as well), I found threads on forums about the card and potential combos. All of this contributed to my decision to create a guide.
If you have any questions or concerns, please leave a comment.
shamanicgreen says... #2
Does it work with Act of Treason effects as well? if so, I think American Control just got a whole new look.
July 11, 2011 5:42 p.m.
@ shamanicgreen
No, it doesn't work because of the wording. In Sundial of the Infinite , it says that "until end of turn and this turn effects end"
the only reason the mimic vat things work is because it creates a whole new trigger, rather than just specify the amount of time that the effect lasts.
July 11, 2011 6:01 p.m.
@ shamanicgreen my understanding is no; sundial shenanigans work with things that set up delayed triggers at specific parts of the turn.
Act of treason, and cards that say 'at end of turn' only wait for a turn to end -- they don't care if it's a 'natural' end of turn or a sundial-created one; my understanding is that these cards set a duration for an effect 'this effect lasts until a turn ends' rather than creating a trigger, in the form of 'when x happens, put this effect on the stack.'
July 11, 2011 6:05 p.m.
zerotimestatechamp says... #5
I gave the build a try in legacy. I called it deck:infinite-aggro-1.
July 11, 2011 9:02 p.m.
You could always play Act of Treason and exile the spell before it resolves but you wouldn't get the creature, or a battlephase, so it's quite pointless.
Delayed triggers are really the only thing to abuse. It's also good at stopping something you really don't want to happen like say they Lightning Bolt your Precursor Golem on your turn. You can activate sundial, end your turn, and all copies of the bolt are exiled as well as the original.
July 11, 2011 11:09 p.m.
PerfectDark64 says... #7
Your my hero right now, I saw this card spoiled and could not wait to abuse it, your just showing me more ways to do it that already fit into a well developed deck I have deck:blink-control-2. :)
July 12, 2011 1:25 a.m.
I made sure everyone knows about the Mimic Vat combo, I posted it on Gatherer and it's the #2 comment on the card xD
What I like about Sundial of the Infinite is that it basically makes everything on your field indestructable on your turn. That is a powerful effect, a better Personal Sanctuary .
July 12, 2011 1:47 a.m.
theemptyquiver says... #9
Oh man...I need to get about 8-12 copies of this stupid card before everyone's grandmas are talking about it and it costs too much to buy.
Can't we wait until after the release to hype it and jack the price up? haha
July 12, 2011 2:02 a.m.
PerfectDark64 says... #10
I'm with you theemptyquiver I need like 12 copies to run 3 ofs in decks. I haven't been this excited about a crd in a long time, props to wizards
July 12, 2011 2:19 a.m.
mossflower says... #11
There are some cards in the other colors with "exile at the beginning of the next end step" that Sundial of the Infinite would like. Heck, Splinter Twin ?! Actually, I don't think the sundial wouldn't fit in an exarch-twin deck. But, there are some other red cards that I really like with it (Zektar Shrine Expedition and Stone Idol Trap ). Here's my take: deck:vensers-american-sundial.
July 12, 2011 2:24 a.m.
ilikeoldcardsbetter says... #13
I don't understand why Oblivion Ring will come back. Why does Venser's delayed triggered ability get to trigger again after the opponents turn?
July 12, 2011 9:30 a.m.
That's a really big sundial, or really tiny people. Thanks for pointing that out, theemptyquiver. I never would have seen them. I count 26 people.
July 12, 2011 9:43 a.m.
It doesn't trigger again, it just never triggered the first time because you ended the turn before the end step occurred.
July 12, 2011 10:26 a.m.
TimProctor says... #16
It's much simpler, you just activate it during your opponents untap step, each time.
July 12, 2011 2:21 p.m.
@TimProctor Except that's not during your turn, so you can't activate it then.
July 12, 2011 3:02 p.m.
mossflower says... #18
@dude1818, seems like a really big sundial to me. I think there are trees in the background.
July 12, 2011 3:47 p.m.
26 people. Standing on the sundial. See the little white specks? Those are the people.
July 12, 2011 3:55 p.m.
Can you play a creature card or any card for that matter and when an opponent tries to counter it, end the turn on your turn? Would whatever card you play resolve or also be sent to the graveyard along with your opponent's counter card?
July 13, 2011 6:39 a.m.
@ shedidthistome when sundial or any other 'end the turn' effect is used (yes, there are others), everything that is on the stack is exiled. so if you cast a spell, then while it's still on the stack an opponent casts a counterspell, and then you end the turn, everything on the stack -- your original spell and the counterspell both -- are exiled.
July 13, 2011 8:02 a.m.
I was discussing this card with someone and they mentioned its application with First Strike and Double Strike creatures. Since there is an extra combat step can the sundial be activated after the first strike damage but before the main combat phase?
July 13, 2011 12:11 p.m.
Yes. Read the following rule:
510.5. If at least one attacking or blocking creature has first strike (see rule 702.7) or double strike (see rule 702.4) as the combat damage step begins, the only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are those with first strike or double strike. After that step, instead of proceeding to the end of combat step, the phase gets a second combat damage step. The only creatures that assign combat damage in that step are the remaining attackers and blockers that had neither first strike nor double strike as the first combat damage step began, as well as the remaining attackers and blockers that currently have double strike. After that step, the phase proceeds to the end of combat step.
After damage is dealt (in this case, first strike damage), priority is received. Then, the combat damage step restarts for all remaining creatures.
July 13, 2011 12:30 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #25
For everyone excited about how you can use Sundial of the Infinite to break removal on your turn: A smart opponent will play this one of two ways.
A smart opponent will just use removal at sorcery speed on his or her own turn. This denies you the opportunity to respond with the Sundial while still getting value out of his or her own cards.
A smarter opponent will use removal during your upkeep. Now you're on a tough spot: Do you use your Sundial to beat the spell, time-walking yourself in the process? If you use the Sundial, you will skip your draw step and go into your opponent's turn a card down. Then your opponent is at their leisure to do it again, and force you to pop your Sundial during your upkeep a second time and throw away your draw a second time.
It's important to note, they can even break your upkeep triggers this way, so not even Sheoldred or Omen Machine can save you.
As a defensive tool, Sundial of the Infinite has some pretty hefty liabilities.. As an offensive tool, you can use it with the aforementioned Glimmerpoint Stag combo, in response to Mimic Vat , or Gruesome Encore .
July 13, 2011 3:19 p.m.
Hmm, interesting thoughts about the sundial, and opens up for further interactions...
Now, "at the beginning of the end step..." effect cards have more interest to me... Such interesting options are as follows...
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur - To stop drawing cards when you don't want to (lol)
Mystifying Maze (I'm surprised this didn't get a mention!) - Stops the attacking creature coming back into play... ever
Red has
Stone Idol Trap - Keep your artifact creatureSplinter Twin - Keep your copied tokenElemental Appeal - 7/1's anyone? :)Zektar Shrine Expedition - Another 7/1?
Wow... If only Red had some way to search out artifacts...
For Black
Nemesis Trap - Keep the token of the exiled cardPostmortem Lunge - Get your creature back and keep it...
The only colour that hasn't got good synergy unfortinately is Green... Oh hold on... There is something...
Now... All I need to do is a Green/White Summoning Trap deck with ways to search up the artifact, possibly splashing blue or black... Heck you could fit this right into a blue/black Tezz/Jace Mill stragety for the win... if you can afford those kinds of cards.
BrightGreenLine does bring up an interesting point in that you could potentially be timewalking yourself, but if your deck is aimed at keeping your creatures alive that shouldn't be kept alive, I don't think people playing this kind of deck would actually want to trigger the Sundial of the Infinite in the hope that they can survive that direct damage spell. :)
Well, that's my rant over with. I would love to see a few decks if folks have thought about this in similar fashion :)
July 14, 2011 2 a.m.
You can use Mystifying Maze only when your opponent attacks and that is during his turn...
July 14, 2011 1:10 p.m.
Also, Putrefax will still be sacrificed on your opponent's turn if I understand correctly, because it simply says "At the beginning of the end step" so it will trigger every turn.
July 14, 2011 11:15 p.m.
@ bcurran nope. that's the whole trick. you wait until the end step, and once the sacrifice trigger is on the stack, you activate the sundial, exiling the trigger. Since it was put on the stack at the correct time -- when the end step began -- the card is satisfied.
July 14, 2011 11:39 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #30
It should retrigger every end step, even if you munch one trigger with your Sundial. That template is identical to "At the beginning of your upkeep," which we all understand to mean it happens during every upkeep. See card:Ajani's Mantra. The wording on the trigger condition for Putrefax is also nearly identical to the wording on Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur , and everyone accepts that J-G triggers every turn. You would not be able to keep a Putrefax by popping Sundial of the Infinite because the ability triggers every end step.
It only works for cards that would be moved "at the beginning of the next end step." Once it triggers, that 'next' event has happened, so the static effect that led to the delayed trigger goes away. You would be able to steal a creature with Gruesome Encore , or beat the heat on Postmortem Lunge , or keep your Elemental from Elemental Appeal . Arachnus Web will still die on the next end step when the enchanted creature's power exceeds 4, and Putrefax will be sacrificed again.
July 15, 2011 12:01 a.m.
You're right, I'm sorry. I thought Putrefax's text was 'at the beginning of the next end step.' On re-reading it, I see I made a mistake. My bad.
July 15, 2011 5:07 a.m.
Phobophile says... #32
i would post a link to my Sundial of the Infinite deck, but unfortunately it's probably nearly the same as most of yours :D
the only combo i didn't see was the Oblivion ring abuse, i added that to my own standard deck.
moving away from standard though, there are other things that this card abuses which no one seems to have mentioned.
the first one that comes to mind is completely useless: Pacts
http://magiccards.info/query?q=cmc%3D0+o%3Apact&v=card&s=cname
0 mana cards that bite you in the butt during your next upkeep. you can simply skip the cost during your upkeep by ending your turn with the delayed trigger on the stack. i can only see these being even remotely plausible in a deck that runs a TON of instant spells (you could still untap your lands and put spells on top of the sundials triggered ability)
July 15, 2011 7:36 a.m.
Phobophile says... #33
The second one, of course, is ETB effects. so far everyone is concentrating on stopping bad things happening to you eventually. what about as soon as you play creatures?
Sundial of the Infinite can proxy as a Torpor Orb
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22champion+a%22&v=card&s=cname
suddenly you can cheat a Phage the Untouchable into play with no consequence, Eater of Days , Avatar of Discord and Nova Chaser become worth it, people are casting Phyrexian Dreadnought s on turn 3. bullshit goes off everywhere.
the only drawback, of course, is that you could only play one of these a turn, so in that respect it's not AS good as Torpor Orb , but the benefit of the sundial is being able to choose which of your ETB abilities you WANT to resolve.
July 15, 2011 7:48 a.m.
Phobophile says... #34
sorry, the link above:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%22champion+a%22&v=card&s=cname
was meant to be a section on championing, the only point being if you play these creatures during your second main, you can end the turn without having to "champion" a creature.
July 15, 2011 7:52 a.m.
cooknathan says... #35
It's great for buff spells Mutagenic Growth etc, things like Overwhelming Stampede , Postmortem Lunge , Alabaster Mage the list goes on forever.
It worked quite well in my infect deck (deck:sundial-of-the-infect if your interested).
Things like Final Fortune can be fun.
July 17, 2011 1:29 a.m.
Phobophile says... #36
@Cooknatha,
hate to say it, but you're wrong about all of those cards.
i'll leave you a comment on your deck.
July 17, 2011 5:41 a.m.
Phobophile says... #37
wrong about all except Postmortem Lunge , sorry.
on a side note, Final Fortune is impossible to abuse, unless you have a Platinum Angel
July 17, 2011 5:50 a.m.
Phobophile says... #38
wrong about all except Postmortem Lunge , sorry.
on a side note, Final Fortune is impossible to abuse, unless you have a Platinum Angel
July 17, 2011 5:50 a.m.
theemptyquiver says... #39
good catch on the postmortem lunge...i was going to correct you, because that was the exception to those cards listed.
I wish it was not a sorcery...
July 17, 2011 6 a.m.
Phobophile says... #40
it it WAS an instant, you wouldn't be able to use the Sundial to stop the sacrifice.
July 17, 2011 6:06 a.m.
theemptyquiver says... #41
Yeah. Well...at least if I used it during an opponent's turn you mean.
Anyhow...I just think that card would be better as an instant. I was not really thinking about it in relation to the sundial.
July 17, 2011 6:22 a.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #43
You can use the Sundial to break Final Fortune , no problem. The wording on the card has been updated in Oracle, and it creates a delayed trigger that can be easily crunched by the sundial.
Final Fortune - RR
"Take an extra turn after this one. At the beginning of that turn's end step, you lose the game."
July 17, 2011 11:07 a.m.
Phobophile says... #44
yeah, they have updated since i last checked, this was pointed out to me today at uni. it must have been a very recent change.
July 18, 2011 9:51 a.m.
MacheteMable says... #46
Can someone explain how the sundial, venser, ring works?
I do not agree with that at all. The problem i have with it is that Oblivion Ring states on the card "When Oblivion Ring leaves play, Return the exiled card to play under its owners control." This isn't an end of turn effect so why does Sundial of the Infinite work on it? It really shouldn't since ending the turn doesn't do anything about the ring leaving play (being exiled is leaving play). I could be wrong though, i'll have to ask some of the DCI judges i know.
July 19, 2011 5:26 p.m.
BrightGreenLine says... #47
Here's how Sundial/O-Ring works: When you use Venser to slide the Oblivion Ring out, it creates a trigger. You use the Sundial in response to this trigger, exiling it and ending your turn. Then at the beginning of your opponent's end step the O-Ring will come back into play, exiling something new. You untap, make all of your plays as normal, then the last thing you do before ending your turn is use Venser to slide it out again, and again end your turn as soon as the O-Ring LTB trigger goes on the stack.
July 19, 2011 8:35 p.m.
You're right that Sundial of the Infinite doesn't do anything about Oblivion Ring leaving play; it is exiled by Venser, the Sojourner and will return at the next end step.
However, when Oblivion Ring is exiled and leaves the battlefield, the ability to return the exiled permanent is put on the stack. Then, Sundial of the Infinite can be activated. When it resolves, it ends the turn and the triggered ability to return the permanent to the battlefield is exiled.
Furthermore, if this is done during the second main phase, then the end step never occurs, and Oblivion Ring will return to the battlefield during your opponent's end step (which would be the next end step since yours never occurred).
Make sense?
July 19, 2011 8:57 p.m.
MacheteMable says... #49
Ya that makes sense. I highly doubt this is what R/D was thinking when they made that card.
July 19, 2011 9:42 p.m.
Two things:
First, we have no idea what R&D was thinking unless they just come out and tell us.
Second, I believe they may have thought about this. I'm pretty sure they knew it could be used to abuse these sort of triggers. Consider the card specific notes WotC released concerning it:
If Sundial of the Infinite's ability is activated before the end step, any "at the beginning of the end step"-triggered abilities won't get the chance to trigger that turn because the end step is skipped. Those abilities will trigger at the beginning of the end step of the next turn. The same is true of abilities that trigger at the beginning of other phases or steps (except upkeep).
July 19, 2011 10:27 p.m.
MacheteMable says... #51
Those notes point towards only the end step being skipped so cards like Mimic Vat can keep their tokens around another turn. Oblivion Ring being able to exile a card every turn permanently does not seem like something they'd be wanting to have happen. We can't know for sure though cause they probably wont say if they expected it or not.
July 19, 2011 10:37 p.m.
Phobophile says... #52
i don't see why not.
It does take a while to put the combo together in standard, it's not really that broken, especially when Zendikar rolls out.
with no mana ramp nor cheating cards into play, you have to stall until turn at least turn 5 to put out Venser, then turn 6 to use him on an Oblivion Ring that you already have on the field, activate the sundial that you already have out, and then only at the end step of your opponents 7th turn
granted you can make a deck that controls/stalls for as long as possible, but really you could pull off a lot more in that amount of time.
plus, exiling permanents really doesn't help with mimic vat.
sure it is an amazing combo, but it is quite particular.
July 20, 2011 6:19 a.m.
Point of information: who gives a flying crud what R&D thought of? they're 30 people playtesting for two months. we're 100,000+, playing constantly. Breaking cards is part of the fun of the game.
July 20, 2011 6:42 a.m.
What do you mean it's less broken when Zendikar rotates? Everything I mentioned in this article is Scars and M12.
July 20, 2011 8:36 a.m.
hey im pretty sure this doesnt work i just want to clarify it.
Isochron Scepter
July 20, 2011 11:10 a.m.
Phobophile says... #56
sorry, formatting error. i more or less meant that cards for mana ramp in standard aren't as good after the zendikar block is gone.
July 20, 2011 12:33 p.m.
Rabidsquirrel99 says... #57
I can't believe no one has thought of making a putrefax deck that actually keeps him around forever! Hello, anyone? Prototype Portal and Mindslaver , Donate them a sundial? Or use Bazaar Trader ? play putrefax, control their turn once you also have a sundial, and just keep controlling their turn so that putrefax never dies. Also, you can make them, if they have an emrakul, play it and end their turn, exiling it. I'm actually kinda surprised...
July 21, 2011 1:31 a.m.
Rabidsquirrel99 says... #61
I'm updating my deck. Splinter Twin and a mana Myr and Myr Galvanizer is infinite galvanizers. Exile the splinters ability, and you have an infinite army of creatures with p/t infinite.Maybe a Xenograft to make all my creatures benefit... Then I could enchant any creature with the splinter
July 21, 2011 3:40 a.m.
I have another example that I am looking to have confirmed or denied. So let me get started.
Here is the setup, I have Venser, the Sojourner and a Sundial of the Infinite in play and cast Oblivion Ring and target something, say an Inferno Titan . After the effect resolves and the Inferno Titan is exiled I use Venser, the Sojourner to exile my Oblivion Ring puting the trigger on the stack to return the Inferno Titan to the board. While the trigger is on the stack I activate the Sundial of the Infinite keeping their titan exiled.
When my opponent moves to their end step would my Oblivion Ring return to play and I would get to exile something else since it is the next end step?
So is this really what would happen or is there some technicality that I am missing that prevents this from working?
July 24, 2011 1:43 p.m.
That is exactly how it works. During your opponent's end step (which is the next end step since you skipped yours), Oblivion Ring returns to the battlefield. Thus, it's first ability goes on the stack and you get to exile a permanent. You can then rinse and repeat the Venser/Sundial trick during your second main phase if you wanted.
July 24, 2011 1:57 p.m.
amazingronaldo says... #65
I do believe this is not as great as we think it may be. Below find the ruling from Gatherer on Time Stop . It has the same effect. Here is the ruling on Beginning of end step effects:
"Unless Time Stop is cast during the Ending phase, any "at the beginning of the end step"-triggered abilities don't get the chance to trigger on the turn Time Stop is cast. These abilities will trigger at the beginning of the next end step"
So you may get to keep that Mimic Vat copy of some exiled creature past your end step, but not past your opponent's.
July 25, 2011 11:23 p.m.
amazingronaldo says... #66
Then again Mimic Vat might just work. It would be any creature that has say exile at the beginning of the next end step. Like Ball Lightning etc that won't stay indefinitely.
Have to keep researching. :)
July 25, 2011 11:29 p.m.
I'm amused that people still think this doesn't work. It's a fact. It does work. It's just a matter of understanding why.
Read that quote carefully. Unless Time Stop is cast during the ending phase. Well, that's exactly we're doing with Mimic Vat , casting it during the end step (formally the ending phase). Thus, the at the beginning of the end step triggers do trigger and will never trigger again.
July 25, 2011 11:45 p.m.
icekillaxx says... #68
IM really sorry im still confused with Venser, the Sojourner with Oblivion Ring comparing it to Glimmerpoint Stag vensers +2 says next end step........ but glimmerpoint says the same thing.... and your telling me that oblivion ring comes back cause of vensers+2 but glimmerpoint will exile it permantly? isnt the same exact thing.... exact words im still confused XD
July 28, 2011 1:47 p.m.
When you abuse Venser, you're ending the turn during the second main phase, so the end step never occurs. Thus, the next end step is your opponents.
When you abuse Stag, you're ending the turn during the end step after the delayed triggered ability is on the stack.
July 28, 2011 1:58 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #70
Basically what happens is you use Venser, the Sojourner 's +2 ability on your Oblivion Ring . When that ability resolves, O-Ring will be exiled until the next end step. This doesn't mean the end step of this turn, but the next one that the game comes to. Then, since O-Ring left the battlefield, its second ability will trigger, waiting to return the permanent it was exiling before it left. In response to that trigger, you activate Sundial of the Infinite , exiling that trigger and thus keeping the permanent in exile. (This works because that triggered ability will only go on the stack once for that permanent. When O-Ring comes back, it will target something else and all ties to the first permanent will no longer exist.)
Glimmerpoint Stag has the same kind of effect, but different wording and therefore a different approach. When it enters the battlefield, it exiles another target permanent until the next end step. When that end step comes, the delayed triggered ability from the Stag will be put on the stack. In response, you activate the Sundial and exile the trigger. This trigger will only happen once, so if it doesn't resolve the first time it is put on the stack, the exiled permanent will remain exiled until the end of the game.
The difference is that with the O-Ring combo, the O-Ring comes back at the end of the turn. In the Stag combo, the target permanent comes back at the end of the turn. Since the two are different, you must use the Sundial differently for each of them. For the O-Ring, that time is right after Venser's ability resolves. For the Stag, that time is before the Stag's trigger resolves during the end step.
July 28, 2011 2:04 p.m.
icekillaxx says... #71
Would it prevent Putrefax from being sacd???? if so thats also bs hahah the price of this rareSundial of the Infinite should be expensive
August 11, 2011 2:19 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #72
No. Putrefax 's sac clause states that it must be sacrificed "at the beginning of the end step", which means that ability triggers at the beginning of every end step. Since Sundial can only be used on your turn, it will still get sac'd on your opponent's end step.
August 11, 2011 2:26 p.m.
I have since written a more clear and concise article on my blog:
http://mtgknowledgepool.tumblr.com/post/8544400171/sundial-of-the-infinite
August 21, 2011 12:28 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #74
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but if youre going to have Mimic Vat and Venser, the Sojourner in the same deck, why wouldnt you put in a playset of Stonehorn Dignitary ???
January 13, 2012 11:27 p.m.
Seance looks to be another card to add to this possible arch-type... just saying :)
January 14, 2012 5:32 p.m.
Seance looks to be another card to add to this possible arch-type... just saying :)
January 14, 2012 5:32 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #77
I have a question. For the Venser, the Sojourner Oblivion Ring Sundial of the Infinite combo. I was under the understanding that after you activate the sundial in response to the oblivion ring re-enter trigger that now things had a chance to do their "at the beginning of the next end step" triggers; the reason being that they would trigger at the end of the turn. i get this understanding because one of the rulings on sundial says: "Ending the turn this way means the following things happen in order: 1) All spells and abilities on the stack are exiled. This includes spells and abilities that can't be countered. 2) All attacking and blocking creatures are removed from combat. 3) State-based actions are checked. No player gets priority, and no triggered abilities are put onto the stack. 4) The current phase and/or step ends. The game skips straight to the cleanup step. The cleanup step happens in its entirety. If any triggered abilities do trigger during this process, they're put onto the stack during the cleanup step. If this happens, players will have a chance to cast spells and activate abilities, then there will be another cleanup step before the turn finally ends".(may have not asked that clearly enough for my point to come across and heres hoping that you understand what i meant)
January 22, 2012 3:05 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #78
ugh never mind i see the other ruling that i hadn't seen before: "If Sundial of the Infinite's ability is activated before the end step, any "at the beginning of the end step"-triggered abilities won't get the chance to trigger that turn because the end step is skipped. Those abilities will trigger at the beginning of the end step of the next turn. The same is true of abilities that trigger at the beginning of other phases or steps (except upkeep)."
January 22, 2012 3:07 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #80
here is my deck based around the sundial: Out of Time :)
January 23, 2012 9:38 a.m.
My thoughts for this funny combo could be a self-mill White/Blue deck using Seance... Gonna have to sit down and think of the logestic's of this and come back with a deck idea to abuse this idea... :)
January 23, 2012 7:19 p.m.
Jokernaught says... #82
Wow. Mind blown. I'm a lazy magic player meaning I keep up on the cards I boosted. I saw a sundial floating around and thought "Wow, what a pathetically useless rare. Oooo, so what if you end your turn early." I am now rethinking the implications of that card... I wonder what else it's good for.
February 5, 2012 2:16 a.m.
"Thus, when you exile the delayed triggered ability from the stack, it will never again trigger."Why then if I activate the sundial's effect the Venser, the Sojourner's delayed triggered ability (which returns Oblivion Ring at the next end step) isn't exiled as well? You wouldn't be able to get Oblivion Ring back, would you? I hope it's not a stupid question, but all these minutes of thinkings about stack rulings made me get a headache :)
April 5, 2012 11:09 a.m.
Reread this paragraph:
But wait. Isn't Oblivion Ring exiled forever, too? Well, if you look at Venser, the Sojourner's ability, it has a delayed triggered ability which returns Oblivion Ring at the next end step. It is here you should note that the turn was ended by Sundial of the Infinite during the second main phase. Thus, the end step never occurred and the delayed triggered ability never triggered. Oblivion Ring will still return to the battlefield during the next end step, which happens to be your opponent's. It is all about timing.
We end the turn during our second main phase, meaning Venser, the Sojourner's delayed triggered ability has not triggered yet and has not gone on the stack. Thus, we do not exile the ability. Instead, it triggers the next time the end step occurs, which is during your opponent's turn. Oblivion Ring will return, and you can exile another nonland permanent.
April 5, 2012 11:14 a.m.
So, basically it's as if you responded to the activation of the Venser's ability with the sundial, right? First the Sundial's effect resolves, then the venser's ability goes on the stack, getting active at the next end step?
April 5, 2012 11:34 a.m.
Well, not quite. Venser's ability will go on the stack, then resolve, exiling O-Ring. Then, when O-Ring's LTB ability goes on the stack, you activate Sundial and exile O-Ring's ability.
If you were to respond to Venser's ability by activating Sundial, it would do nothing.
April 5, 2012 2:23 p.m.
What about Seance? I guess you can't keep the copy right? Cause it's a "this turn" effect, right?
April 6, 2012 3:17 a.m.
Yeah sorry for another question, but what about Flashback? If I cast back from the gy, can I exile the "Then exile it" ability with the Sundial after it has solved?
April 6, 2012 3:35 a.m.
ok, sorry, solved about the Seance thing, it's pretty much the same to the Glimmerpoint Stag, but not about the flashback
April 6, 2012 3:43 a.m.
No.
702.32a Flashback appears on some instants and sorceries. It represents two static abilities: one that functions while the card is in a player's graveyard and the other that functions while the card is on the stack. "Flashback [cost]" means "You may cast this card from your graveyard by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost" and "If the flashback cost was paid, exile this card instead of putting it anywhere else any time it would leave the stack." Casting a spell using its flashback ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e - g.
This is a replacement effect, and occurs as the spell resolves. There is absolutely nothing you can do to change where an instant or sorcery goes when the flashback cost is paid.
April 6, 2012 10:03 a.m.
ok, got it! Thank you very much. If you want, check my Exile of the Infinite deck out
April 6, 2012 10:25 a.m.
Internet_the_Explorer says... #93
so basically with the o-ring deal, your exiling a card a turn on THEIR end step, correct?
May 4, 2012 1:22 a.m.
Phobophile says... #94
nope, on your own end step.
sundial can ONLY end your own turn.
July 2, 2012 1:33 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #95
@Phobophile I think he is referring to the fact that Oblivion Ring will return to the battlefield at their end step.
Gamer7129 says... #1
Thank you for writing this article. now if you excuse me, i am gonna build a deck around this.
July 11, 2011 3:28 p.m.