Win Conditions in Azorius flicker?
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on July 18, 2016, 9:43 a.m. by Phaetion
I'm trying to build a W/U flicker deck that is a fusion of three generals. I have a rough draft which I'll post soon, but I feel like I'm missing ways to win. Any ideas?
Generals in question. Note that any of the following can be at the helm: Brago, King Eternal, Lavinia of the Tenth, and Rasputin Dreamweaver.
EDIT: Deck Posted.
MagicalHacker says... #3
Brago, King Eternal + Strionic Resonator + Sol Ring = infinite flickering all nonlands you control.
July 18, 2016 9:51 a.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #4
Test of Endurance, Felidar Sovereign, Celestial Convergence, and Azor's Elocutors are the big win con's for azorius that I can think of.
How you accomplish them is up to you and what you flicker and whatnot.
July 18, 2016 10:05 a.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #5
I have a friend who plays Brago and his main win condition is a timely Armageddon / Catastrophe and then dropping Captain of the Watch / Elspeth, Sun's Champion and swarming with tokens.
You also have access to Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator / Eldrazi Displacer, which is probably best paired with Venser, Shaper Savant to counter everything and bounce all enemy permanents.
July 18, 2016 10:32 a.m.
DeathChant17: No stax. I hate stax.
MagicalHacker: Wow, I forgot that combo existed Glad that's already in there. Thanks.
Raging_Squiggle: Not those sort of win conditions. :p
DiamondFlavor: Interesting, but MLD is not the direction I wish to take. However, bonus points to you for making me see yet another infinite combo.
July 18, 2016 11 a.m.
The OP has been updated to include the deck in question.
July 18, 2016 11:12 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #8
Yeah the Sol Ring part can be replaced by any nonland that can produce 2+ mana, so Mana Vault and friends are good here too.
July 18, 2016 11:26 a.m.
MagicalHacker: I thought about Vault and its ilk, but as the deck is not centered around just Brago, I didn't include them. That said, there's still plenty of mana rocks for him to flicker.
July 18, 2016 11:29 a.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #10
Also Rasputin and Eldrazi Displacer is infinite colorless mana. How to use that is unclear, but Blue Sun's Zenith to draw your deck, play whatever rocks you need for colored mana, loop Archaeomancer for BSZ to deck opponents... I guess?
You also have access to Reveillark / Karmic Guide / Sun Titan / Angel of Glory's Rise / Fiend Hunter shenanigans but that requires you to play sac outlets which may be suboptimal in your colors.
Also given the Brago + Strionic Resonator + Sol Ring combo if you include Triskelion, Blasting Station, or Staff of Nin it's infinite damage.
July 18, 2016 12:06 p.m.
OmegaAura113 says... #11
I love using Opposition + Static Orb/Winter Orb to lock down opponents, keeping my stuff untapped by blinking.
July 18, 2016 12:44 p.m.
Regigigas23: If you read an earlier response, then you'll know that me and stax hate each other.
DiamondFlavor: Blue Sun's Zenith (and Stroke of Genius) called me already. I might consider them, but the problem surfaces when I'm not using Rasputin at the helm. What if I decide to use Lavinia instead, for example?
July 18, 2016 12:47 p.m.
Add in Mirror Entity to the Reveillark combo to go infinite by paying 0 into Entity's ability a bunch of times. It can be repeated every turn.
July 18, 2016 12:51 p.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #16
Phaetion well, I don't want to contradict your desire to have rotating Commanders, but the issue with win conditions is perhaps tied to the issue of a variable Command Zone. I feel that most decks build their win conditions around the Zone, so attempting to have a rotating Zone means you have to rely on generic win conditions, which makes deck-building much harder.
While each general is loosely related to the flicker mechanic, they have vastly different playstyles. Rasputin really looks best to either ramp out huge threats or initiate combos that can count on having him accessible. Lavinia is honestly probably the worst by a wide margin, but I could see her in a lock-down / prison build that had enough beaters to close out the game at mid-range. Brago is an insanely powerful Commander who makes a ton of less-than-optimal cards quite good, and makes great cards even better. He has combo potential but is also just a value machine.
My point being that while 50-80 cards will be the same regardless of your general, the remainder can make the whole identity of the deck and therein change the whole strategy. While I respect your intentions, I can only advise that choosing one Commander will make your win conditions clearer and more readily available. But total respect if you choose to ignore this advice!
July 18, 2016 11:32 p.m.
DiamondFlavor: Not to worry. I don't expect people to favor the idea much either. My intention is to scale the deck to my opponent's decks so I don't come off as weak or overpowering, and somewhat negating the need for another deck. I agree that Lavinia is the worst, so I use her at the helm when I'm against low-powered/casual decks.
I do agree that my wincons are, in a way, compromised, by my direction but that's ok. I'm not in the format to win (by rights, no one should be). There is also the whole "build-around-your-general" thing, which I avoid like the plague. I hate that kind of deck-building style because it's just not feasible (unless you're in green and got lots of ramp or an artifact deck with a trillion mana rocks).
For this deck, I'll ignore the advice, but I know for some of the other decks I have (and will build), I already know to take the advice. I have at least one other deck, and that deck has only one legendary creature, so it's fine. I could add green to the deck and use Roon of the Hidden Realm, but there's this special charm about Azorius and flicker that keeps me from going Bant.
tl;dr: Not to panic; this is one of the few decks where I'll ignore your advice, but I do have other ones that don't have rotating generals. This deck is the only one with that feature. it's not easy to build a deck with rotating generals. You already mentioned one reason, but there's other reasons too.
July 18, 2016 11:44 p.m.
I used to run Brago. I used to flicker Heliod's Pilgrim to fetch enchantments that let Brago have protection from creatures, indestructible, unblockable, and then there was Eldrazi Conscription. That one can turn Brago into a much faster clock.
The issue with Brago is he has to connect (
lacks haste effects) or the deck just kinda flops. He isn't a fast general by any means and he can easily abuse stax effects (which is why they are paired together). He does and can go infinite easily so abusing that might be your best bet whether with mana or flooding the board with tokens.
July 19, 2016 12:19 a.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #19
Phaetion yeah, that's cool. I have no intention of criticizing your game plan, just playing devil's advocate. I think your most reliable win conditions that aren't general specific will be centered around Deadeye Navigator and Eldrazi Displacer. Just grinding out value with Mulldrifter and tempo with Venser, Shaper Savant will win you a lot of games. And your literally kill-condition can pretty reliably be Captain of the Watch or another token-spammer. Cathars' Crusade is potentially outrageous too.
I do fairly strongly disagree that building around the Zone isn't feasible. In fact, I would argue that it's one of the most feasible build styles in the format, because even with a lot of tutoring and redundancy you are never guaranteed any card except for your Commander. Especially for combo builds, many decks structure the 99 exclusively to serve the Commander. I play Prime Speaker Zegana and she's mostly just there to guarantee that I win off an infinite mana combo; otherwise I play her maybe once or twice in a game to avoid a stall, and usually only for 3 cards.
In the case of something like Brago, it makes Mana Vault and Grim Monolith absurdly good without needing to build in Voltaic Key or Unwinding Clock. I would argue that including them constitutes building around the general in that sense.
July 19, 2016 11:07 a.m.
DiamondFlavor: I played Roon long ago and I felt as though the win conditions were based on grinding out tons of value. I never really thought to add token producers, as I'm not really a fan of them, but I did add Mirror Entity as another win condition (and, as someone said, I could use it to do the Karmic-'Lark loop).
I guess that's true, but I'm still not exactly coaxed. I think it's because it's not my playstyle, and that new legendary creatures with this feature are constantly getting printed doesn't hep either. If anything, it's pushed me away from focusing around the command zone.
But, hey, I don't mind it if you play devil's advocate. I might try focusing around my general again, but I know it's going to put me off again.
Flagellum: That's one way to build Brago. Another is to utilize Manifest, which I almost did. Not my plan, however.
Atony1400: Good point. I'll consider adding it.
July 19, 2016 11:45 a.m.
DiamondFlavor says... #21
Thassa, God of the Sea is a great source of unblockable. I dunno, maybe Sublime Archangel? I don't feel that UW is incredible for voltron, you already have the best infinite combos in your colors, and you don't want to pursue tokens or land wipe. I'm not really sure what other win-cons exist other than more convoluted combos and maybe something like Cathars' Crusade which is honestly slow against a cutthroat deck.
July 19, 2016 2:07 p.m.
DiamondFlavor: I'm not sure if Cathars' would cut it. Since I'll be flickering stuff, it would reset the +1/+1 counters. Not sure if I'd want that.
July 19, 2016 2:16 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #23
You could pair Cathars' Crusade with cards like Sage of Hours and Simic Manipulator. Before you flicker and lose the counters, use them for infinite turns and stealing all the creatures.
DeathChant17 says... #2
You going the stax route?
July 18, 2016 9:46 a.m.