14 hours ago
121.2. Cards may only be drawn one at a time. If a player is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player performs that many individual card draws.
121.2c If an effect instructs more than one player to draw cards, the active player performs all of their draws first, then each other player in turn order does the same.
121.6b If an effect replaces a draw within a sequence of card draws, the replacement effect is completed before resuming the sequence.
Combining these rules, you will see that players will discard their hand, first the active player will draw a hand, than every other player in turn order. If player A casts Wheel and player B activates Words, all players between player A and Player B, including player A, will discard one of the seven cards they have drawn. Player B will draw 6 cards. Players after player B will be unaffected, as they do not have cards in hand.
If player B controls both Wheel and Words and activates Words once, Player B will draw 6 cards, while all other players will draw 7 and have to discard nothing. This is because the discard is done simultaneously, while the drawing is in turn order.
15 hours ago
Player A casts Wheel of Fortune on their turn. In response, player B activates Words of Waste one time. Since the card draw is simultaneous, will player A discard its first or even second drawn card? What if a wheel effect resolved while player B is the active player?
2 days ago
I know that when you have a legendary creature out, and a 2nd copy comes out (barring exceptions such as Mirror Gallery), you must choose one of the two permanents and place them into the graveyard as state based actions check.
Is this considered "dying"? I'm asking because some, such as Kokusho, the Evening Star have death triggers.
So if I do something janky like Stolen Identity on Kokusho, and the token is moved into the graveyard, does the token "die" thus causing the life loss / life gain effect to go off?
To be clear, yes I am aware that the Legendary Rule states that the creature is not destroyed, nor is it sacrificed. These are two very explicit words that matter, such as Indestructible interacts with being destroyed, and some cards such as Assault Suit prevent sacrificing.
So in terms of the token copy of Kokusho being moved to the graveyard as per state based actions, that token copy is still dying, correct? So in a game of EDH that's still a -5 loss of life for all opponents and a +15 gain for me, assuming a normal 4-player pod, correct?
2 days ago
Taigam, Ojutai Master is was never declared as an attacker, therefore he never "attacked". (Also, I'm not sure why your link goes to a deck instead of the card.)
508.4. If a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which planeswalker a defending player controls it’s attacking as it enters the battlefield (unless the effect that put it onto the battlefield specifies what it’s attacking). Similarly, if an effect states that a creature is attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which planeswalker a defending player controls it’s attacking it becomes attacking (unless the effect has already specified). Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”
3 days ago
I understand that interpretation of the "-1, -1 counters built up" part. However, the way I interpreted it (and I assume Rhadamanthus did to, based on his response) was the friends being mistaken and thinking the -1/-1 was an ongoing effect that would affect anything that entered afterward as well, not a stack of triggers still waiting to resolve (especially given the incorrect wording of "counters").
Either way, my response was to show that there was still a way it would work, given the right conditions.
3 days ago
Sure, but based on how OP's friends were talking, it sounded like there were more than a few other creatures on the field.
"They explained that the -1, -1 counters that built up during MG's delayed ability was still on the board"
Nobody describes something as "built up" if there are three or less of that thing.
The point of the example was to show how the triggers from Puppeteer Clique and Unholy Indenture have to happen before any extra Massacre Girl triggers are cleared. I chose 5 1/1's because it was the simplest way to illustrate that.
3 days ago
I don't know, I'd say it's like standing in front of a vending machine with a letter from the IRS saying you owe them one dollar. If you have a dollar, you have to pay. Only if you are absolutely destitute would they accept nonpayment.
If you only have one dollar, you might as well shove it into the vending machine so the IRS doesn't get it.
3 days ago
Dictate of Erebos is still a game effect requiring you to fulfil it (sacrificing a creature). You can't sacrifice a creature to both that requirement and a different one (cost of Culling Dais). Raging_Squiggle's vending machine analogy is an excellent example.
3 days ago
For others who view this, yes, you have to sacrifice two lands for each Lotus Field you play.
The text on the card "When [card name] enters the battlefield" means specifically "When [this card right here] enters the battlefield." This triggers when the land enters the battlefield, and unless you Stifle the trigger or find some other way to skip it, you will be required to sacrifice two lands. It doesn't matter if you're playing the land, Ghostly Flicker it, or have already played a land named Lotus Field. That land entering the battlefield will trigger that ability.
It's just like the ability on cards like Gruul Turf, which require you to bounce a land when it enters the battlefield. This also means that for both the Lotus Field and a Karoo land like Gruul Turf, if you don't have enough other options to sacrifice/bounce, you must also sacrifice/bounce the Lotus Field/Gruul Turf.
If it didn't function this way in Arena, that's a bug. I, too, am curious what answer you found for yourself, Akromathia.
3 days ago
However, sonnet666, if there's only a single 1/1 on the battlefield, then you would be able to keep the stolen creatures.
In your detailed example, in step 2, only one M trigger would go on the stack due to only one 1/1 dying. This trigger would resolve in step 5, killing Puppeteer Clique and Falkenrath Noble. Careful stacking of the new triggers would have the new Massacre Girl triggers resolve before either Clique or Noble returns to the battlefield.
So as long as the right arrangement of creatures are on the battlefield, this would work. It would have to be the right arrangement, however, as even a second 1/1 would kill off the Clique after it returned, which in turn would kill off the Noble.
3 days ago
I was confused because Dictate of Erebos has a triggered ability, and Culling Dias has an activation cost. When my friends and I discussed this issue, I thought the single creature that I sacrificed was only paying for culling dais. I assumed that “Dictate” didn’t have a cost because it’s a trigger.
3 days ago
No because you’re sacrificing the creature for a different purpose than the one forcing you to sacrifice said creature.
Think of it like you have two vending machines in front of you. You can’t use the same dollar bill (creature) to pay for a drink (effect) from both vending machines (sources).
3 days ago
You actually asked a really complicated question and, based on your response, I don't think you totally got the answer from what was posted. Furthermore, Rhadamanthus's answer is correct in terms of how the rules work, but doesn't do a good job of explaining what happens in this situation.
I'm going to go over it in more detail.
Massacre Girl's Enters the Battlefield ability is a triggered ability. When it resolves it does two things: give every other creature currently on the board -1/-1, AND create a delayed triggered effect for the rest of the turn, that triggers when a creature dies, and will also give every other creature on the board -1/-1 when that delayed trigger resolves.
In the situation you describe, Puppeteer Clique and Falkenrath Noble WILL still die and you WON'T end up with them, or the creature that PC brought back, on the battlefield when the dust settles (probably).
The board is as follows: Puppeteer Clique on your side, and Falkenrath Noble enchanted with your Unholy Indenture under your opponent's control. I'm also going to assume there are some other creatures on the board and that at least one of them is a 1/1, because otherwise nothing would die to Massacre Girl's ability. To make this example run smoothly, I'm going to say this is a multiplayer game, and that your second opponent controls five 1/1 elf warrior tokens.
It's your turn. You play Massacre Girl. This happens, step by step:
Nobody counters Massacre Girl. It resolves, then its ETB resolves, giving everything -1/-1.
The five 1/1 Elf Warriors die as a State-Based Action. Before the next player gets priority, five of Massacre Girl's delayed triggers get put on the stack. Abilities on the stack resolve in First-In-Last-Out order, so I'm going to name these triggers M1 though M5, with M1 being the first on the stack. M5 will be the first to resolve.
Falkenrath Noble's ability also triggers five times (F1 through F5). Your opponent controls these triggers. Because you are the active player (its your turn) your abilities went on the stack first. Your opponent chooses a target player to lose life for each trigger.
F5 through F1 resolve. Your opponent gains 1 life and the targeted player loses 1 life, five times.
Puppeteer Clique and Falkenrath Noble die as a SBA. Six abilities trigger from this: Unholy Indenture's ability, Puppeteer Clique's persist, two new Massacre Girl delayed triggers (M6&7), and two new Falkenrath Noble triggers that your opponent controls (F6&7).
Again, your triggers go on the stack before your opponents, but you get to choose the order you want your triggers to resolve in. Lets say you stack them like this: Puppeteer, Unholy, M6 and M7 (M7 will resolve first), then your opponent's F6 and F7 go on after. (Your opponent's chooses targets now.)
F7 and F6 resolve. Same as step 4.
M7 and M6 resolve. There's no creatures left except Massacre Girl, so nothing happens.
Puppeteer Clique's Persist resolves and it comes back with a -1/-1 counter. It's ETB triggers and goes on the stack on top of everything else. You choose which creature you're targeting now.
Let's say there's a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur in your opponent's graveyard. Puppeteer Clique steals until the end step, so you figure you'll be able to get 7 cards off of it. PC's ETB resolves and put in into play under your control.
The first four Massacre Girl triggers are still on the stack. M4 resolves, giving PC, FN, and Jin -1/-1.
PC dies as a SBA. Your Falkenrath Noble triggers from this (Fa). Choose a player to target. Fa resolves, you drain them for 1.
M3 resolves, giving FN and Jin -1/-1.
FN dies as a SBA. It triggers itself (Fb). Repeat step 14.
M2 and M1 resolve, giving Jin -1/-1 twice.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur is a 5/4 and has been given -4/-4. It dies as a SBA. It goes back to your opponent's graveyard because PC only exiles at the end step.
Massacre Girl triggers one last time (M8), but the ability does nothing like in step 9.
And that's everything. As you can see, even though Massacre Girl's triggered ability only effects the creatures that are on the battlefield when the trigger resolves, the triggers resolve individually, and everything that comes into play in the middle of it will probably die too. Even stacking the triggers as well as possible back in step 7 wasn't enough to save a 5/4 in this example, and things will probably be even more hectic in a game with a clogged board full of creatures. (Maybe if you pulled someone's Emrakul, the Promised End, and there weren't too many creatures on the field, that might survive the massacre.)
Your friends were explaining it rather simply when they said the delayed triggers "built up" but in this instance that's a good way to look at it.
(Note: Any time I said "__ resolves," there was a chance for players to cast instants and activate abilities just before that happened. I left that out because this was complicated enough already.)
Hope this helps :)
4 days ago
Rhadamanthus is correct that previous resolutions of Massacre Girl's abilities will not impact creatures that enter the battlefield after those abilities have resolved. However, her second triggered ability (Whenever a creature dies this turn, each creature other than Massacre Girl gets -1/-1 until end of turn) is still in effect until the end of the turn. So if a creature dies during the turn, say after the initial wave of deaths and after some new creatures came in, it will then trigger the second ability and creatures will get -1/-1.
4 days ago
Use double square brackets around a card's name to create a pop-up for reference. It's the easiest way to make sure everyone understands what's going on with your question (and you don't have to do all that extra typing): Massacre Girl, Puppeteer Clique, Kaya's Ghostform, Falkenrath Noble
First, there's a problem with your specific example: Kaya's Ghostform can only enchant a creature you control. Unless the "opponent's Falkenrath Noble" you're talking about is something you took from them with Puppeteer Clique or something else that gave you control, you can't put the Ghostform on it.
You had the right idea. The temporary -1/-1 effects (not counters) from Massacre Girl's triggered abilities won't affect creatures that enter the battlefield after the triggers resolve. If a resolving spell or ability changes the characteristics of objects on the battlefield (power, toughness, color, abilities, etc.) then the group of objects it will affect is locked in at the time the spell/ability is resolving. It won't affect anything that enters the battlefield at a later point.
The following is a quote from the relevant section of the Comprehensive Rules document:
611.2c If a continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability modifies the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects, the set of objects it affects is determined when that continuous effect begins. After that point, the set won’t change. (Note that this works differently than a continuous effect from a static ability.) A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability that doesn’t modify the characteristics or change the controller of any objects modifies the rules of the game, so it can affect objects that weren’t affected when that continuous effect began. If a single continuous effect has parts that modify the characteristics or changes the controller of any objects and other parts that don’t, the set of objects each part applies to is determined independently.
Example: An effect that reads “All white creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn” gives the bonus to all permanents that are white creatures when the spell or ability resolves—even if they change color later—and doesn’t affect those that enter the battlefield or turn white afterward.
Example: An effect that reads “Prevent all damage creatures would deal this turn” doesn’t modify any object’s characteristics, so it’s modifying the rules of the game. That means the effect will apply even to damage from creatures that weren’t on the battlefield when the continuous effect began. It also affects damage from permanents that become creatures later in the turn.
4 days ago
Hello! I recently built a deck around Massacre and immediately ran into the following situation...
My board included Puppeteer Clique. **When Puppeteer Clique enters the battlefield, put target creature card from an opponent's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. It gains haste. At the beginning of your next end step, exile it. Persist (When this creature dies, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.)
I played a Kaya's Ghostform on an opponent's Falkenrath Noble. **Enchant creature or planeswalker you control. When enchanted permanent is put into the graveryard or is exiled, return that card to the battlefield under your control.
I played Massacre Girl, which cleared the board. **When Massacre Girl enters the battlefield, each other creature gets -1/-1 until end of turn. Whenever a creature is put into the graveyard from the battlefield this turn, each creature other than Massacre Girl gets -1/-1 until end of turn.
In my mind (and because of my lack of experience) I thought that the delayed ability of Massacre would resolve. Then I would get my opponent's Falkenrath Noble, Puppeteer Clique would come back from the grave with a -1, -1 counter (since it hadn't died yet), which then would also allow me to play a creature card from my opponents graveyard to my battlefield (Puppeteer Clique's ability).
However, I was told that this was incorrect and that everyone that was returned to the battlefield would immediately be killed again. They explained that the -1, -1 counters that built up during MG's delayed ability was still on the board and would effect all entries that came into play that same turn.
Can someone confirm/clarify this for me?
5 days ago
Damage remains marked on a creature until the clean-up step (after the end step). The SBA that destroys creatures for having damage marked on them equal to or greater than their toughness will see that Westvale Cult Leader is a 2/2 with 2 damage marked on it and will destroy it.
5 days ago
so i had a 9/9 Westvale Cult Leader that took two damage in an attack. all but two creatures died ( Westvale Cult Leader and one other stay alive) bringing the cult leader's toughness down to two. Does Westvale Cult Leader die after it's base toughness is lowered post damage?
5 days ago
Boza: The game doesn't distinguish between "earlier" and "later" SBAs in that way. They're all handled simultaneously whenever they need to happen.
704.3 Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 117, "Timing and Priority"), the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions simultaneously as a single event...
5 days ago
The exact Undying example is in the rules. The reason is the permanent dies from an earlier SBA and the SBA that cancels the counters out does not have a chance to do its thing, since the permanent is no more:
704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.
704.5q If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.
In short, F is before Q.
5 days ago
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Example: You control Young Wolf, a 1/1 creature with undying, and it has a +1/+1 counter on it. A spell puts three -1/-1 counters on Young Wolf. Before state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf has one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters on it. After state-based actions are performed, Young Wolf is in the graveyard. When it was last on the battlefield, it had a +1/+1 counter on it, so undying will not trigger.
5 days ago
The reason it happens that way is in the details of exactly how SBAs and "dies" triggers are processed.
When the game needs to execute SBAs, they're all done simultaneously and then checked again to see if any more need to be addressed as a result of that. In your example this means a +1/+1 and -1/-1 counter cancel each other out at the same time Geralf's Messenger is put into the graveyard for having 0 toughness.
"Dies" triggers (and other triggers based on leaving the battlefield) look back at the last moment the object was still on the battlefield to determine if and how they trigger. In your example, because of how the SBAs were handled, Geralf's Messenger still had a +1/+1 counter at the last moment it was still on the battlefield. Undying doesn't trigger.
5 days ago
I have a Geralf's Messenger with a +1/+1 counter on it.
My opponent puts three -1/-1 counters on it on one go, Torment of Venom for arguements sake.
I was told undying won't trigger again. Why?
I get the impression that those counters in question cancells each other out.
1 week ago
There's also the difference in that Infect changes how a creature deals damage, while Poisonous is a triggered ability (where the trigger is the creature dealing damage).
If you read the reminder text on both cards, you'll note that the damaged player is receiving poison counters from both abilities, regardless of the name of the ability. "Infect counters" aren't actually a thing, it's just a shorthand some players use to refer to either type of counter placed due to Infect damage.
"Poisonous" as an ability is just a reflection of an older creature ability to give a player poison counters if a specific condition was met (dealing damage to that player, not being blocked, etc.), as seen on cards like Serpent Generator, Pit Scorpion, and Swamp Mosquito. Future Sight gave WotC a chance to give it a proper keyword on a future-shifted card.
1 week ago
You are correct in this case. The other guy is mistaken. There is only one type/kind of poison counter in MtG, but there are two mechanics that can distribute them.
The actual difference between Poison and Infect is the fact that Infect deals combat damage as -1/-1 counters to creatures in addition to giving player's Poison counters.
This page references all the appropriate rules. Also, sometimes in pods, people houserule it to require 20 poison counters (half your starting life total) to kill a player. If yours doesn't, then lucky you! =P
1 week ago
I have a sliver deck that I slapped together which has a virulent sliver but also have a triumph of the hordes because why not. I'm asking how they interact because someone in my play group told me that poison counters from poisonous and poison counters from infect are two separate types of counters.
So lets say for instance I have out just virulent sliver and i cast a triumph of the hordes:
What I thought happens: virulent sliver does 2 infect damage and then poisonous 1 triggered for a total of 3 poison counters
What the guy in my pod thought: virulent sliver does 2 infect damage and then poisonous 1 triggers for a total of 2 infect counters and 1 poison counter, as in i'd either have to get him to 10 poison counters with infect, or 10 with poisonous 1 saying that they dont stack.
Who's right? I just want to play correctly
1 week ago
If Maralen of the Mornsong's ability is put on the stack first the Teferi's Puzzle Box trigger will resolve first and the player who's draw step it is will discard their hand and then draw 0 cards. After another round of priority they will be able to search their library for a card and put it in their hand.
If Teferi's Puzzle Box's trigger is put on the stack first the Maralen of the Mornsong ability will resolve first and the active player will search their library for a card and put it in their hand. After another round of priority they will then discard their hand and draw 0 cards.
The order the triggers are put on the stack will depend on who controls what. If a single player controls both they get to decide what order the triggers go on the stack on each draw step. If two different players control them they go on the stack in turn order starting with the active player.
1 week ago
BluePeter: Since it's clear you got a satisfactory answer to your question, I marked it as the "Accepted answer" so that this topic can move out of the list of unanswered questions. Please remember to take care of this yourself in the future.
1 week ago
Yes, thanks, its a good point. The Pridemate doesn't come in as 3/3. Stuff can go onto the stack, between casting and resolving.
Scary. Linden, Heliod, and 3 Pridesmates attacking. Pridesmates all get 5 +1/+1 counters, as can Linden. Before blockers!
1 week ago
1/ Almost correct - you do not gain the counter immediately, but only after both the Daxos and the Pridemate abilities resolves. There are a few opportunities where the opponent can cast Shock on your pridemate prior to it receiving the counter.
2/ Yes, that is correct.