legendofa on Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel's …
13 hours ago
No, color words in the text box don't change color identity. Only the mana symbols in the mana cost and rules text (not reminder text) determine color identity. Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel has a mono-black identity.
Moondrop on Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel's …
15 hours ago
My question is if Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel ability to make green elves changes his color identity from mono-black and what else that might entail for other interactions related to color identity?
Rhadamanthus on Does an animated Sword of …
2 days ago
jarncards: Since there don't seem to be any more follow-ups in this discussion, I've marked one of the responses as the "Accepted answer" so this topic can move out of the list of unanswered questions. In the absence of any further discussion or definitive answers, Yesterday's answer seems most likely to be the correct one.
Rhadamanthus on Can the once per turn …
2 days ago
No, that doesn't work, for different reasons depending on the specific situation.
If Volrath, the Shapestealer
is the one enchanted by Well Rested, then Well Rested's ability-granting effect is applied on top of the results of Volrath's copy effect. Volrath didn't gain a new instance of the Well Rested ability, so it won't trigger again if it already has this turn.
If the creature Volrath is copying is enchanted by Well Rested, then the ability from Well Rested won't be copied at all. Copy effects only copy an object's "copiable characteristics". For cards, the copiable characteristics are whatever's printed on the card. For tokens, the copiable characteristics are whatever characteristics the token was created with. There are a few other considerations in the detailed rules needed to make certain mechanics work properly, but none of those apply to this example. The ability granted by Well Rested isn't a copiable characteristic of the creature it's enchanting, so Volrath won't get it.
With regards to the ruling you found: When a copy effect is applied to an object, the copiable characteristics overwrite whatever characteristics the object already has, minus any specific exceptions given (like in Volrath's case, it specifically keeps P/T and the copy ability). This means if an object becomes a copy of something, any abilities it gains from the copying process are different abilities from what it had before, even if it was previously a copy of that same thing. However, in this example, Volrath's copy effect isn't causing it to gain the Well Rested ability.
Ev1_ on Can the once per turn …
3 days ago
From the rules: "If Volrath copies a creature with an ability that can be activated only once each turn (such as Chainer, Nightmare Adept), you can activate that ability once. If Volrath then becomes a copy of that same creature, you can activate that ability another time, and so on."
Since Well Rested is granting the ability, will it see Volrath as the same creature and not trigger, or will Volrath become a "new" permanent and reset the once per turn clause?
tigermanic on split second combo stack manipulation …
4 days ago
StYY I wouldn't be able to tap creatures like Thermo-Alchemist while a split second spell is on the stack, so untapping them isn't necessarily helpful.
But getting Sudden Shock copied in the stack with a damage double in play would totally get me when I'm going!
StYY on split second combo stack manipulation …
4 days ago
"Whenever you cast an instant" cards like Guttersnipe, Aria of Flame possibly untap engines like Thermo-Alchemist and Unruly Catapult with dmg doubling effects like Furnace of Rath would work well. Cards that copy the next spell like Chandra, Hope's Beacon Cursed Recording and the emblem from Rowan, Scholar of Sparks Flip
Krark, the Thumbless adds an interesting interaction, you can trigger all of your "when you cast" triggers then have a 50/50 chance of getting the spell back to do it again, or you get a double spell.
Rhadamanthus on Can an animated Journey to …
5 days ago
Yes, that works. Journey to Nowhere doesn't say "other" or "an opponent controls" (lots of these effects say this now) or some other kind of restriction like that, so it can target itself. When the ETB resolves, the LTB will trigger, and when the LTB resolves then Journey will return to the battlefield. It's not an immediate return because you have to wait for the LTB to resolve. The only thing I could find that could target itself and return immediately after the ETB resolves, because it uses an "as long as this is on the battlefield" duration rather than separate ETBs and LTBs, is Touch the Spirit Realm.
Neotrup on split second combo stack manipulation …
6 days ago
The spell is removed before the damage trigger is added to the stack, do you would need cast triggers. One thing you can do other than special actions is activate mana abilities. This includes things like Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Altar, so you can get Death triggers into the mix.
legendofa on split second combo stack manipulation …
1 week ago
I'm a little hazier on this part, but I believe a spell is removed from the stack as it resolves. So Sudden Shock would resolve, removing itself from the stack and dealing damage. Imodane, the Pyrohammer would trigger in response to the damage, but Sudden Shock has already fully resolved and left the stack.
On-cast triggers would work. If you lean into the face-down stuff, Bonethorn Valesk and Pyrotechnic Performer can also set damage triggers while a split second card is on the stack.
tigermanic on split second combo stack manipulation …
1 week ago
legendofa, Would Sudden Shock still be on the stack when an Imodane, the Pyrohammer begins dealing damage due to it only targeting and damaging a single target? Or will I need to look for on cast triggered abilities?
legendofa on split second combo stack manipulation …
1 week ago
TL;DR: Look for triggered abilities, and keep those face down creatures on standby. They're probably the most useful thing that can happen.
To answer the rules question, split second prevents players from casting spells or activating non-mana abilities. Triggered abilities can still trigger, either from casting the split second spell or from a special action that doesn't use the stack. Here's a list of those special actions that don't use the stack, courtesy of rule 116.2:
-
playing a land (sorcery speed)
-
unmorphing, uncloaking, or otherwise flipping something face up (instant speed)
-
delaying or ending certain effects, like Quenchable Fire or Tempting Licid (read the card for timing restrictions)
-
paying to ignore certain effects, like Leonin Arbiter or Volrath's Curse (instant speed as needed)
-
discarding Circling Vultures (instant speed)
-
suspending a card (normal timing restrictions for whatever you're suspending)
-
adding a companion to your hand from outside the game (sorcery speed)
-
foretelling a card from your hand (instant speed during your turn)
-
rolling the planar die in a Planechase game (sorcery speed)
-
revealing a Conspiracy card in a Conspiracy draft format (instant speed)
-
plotting a card from your hand (sorcery speed)
-
unlocking a Room (sorcery speed)
Most of these don't apply to your deck or the situation, or are restricted to sorcery speed and can't be used around split second.
tigermanic on split second combo stack manipulation …
1 week ago
I'm I've built a Red burn Commander deck with Toralf, God of Fury Flip at the helm.
I have a plan of using a split second spell, like Sudden Shock followed by flipping a morphed burn creature like Skirk Volcanist to start a damage trigger cascade that opponents will not be able to easily interact with.
My question is if there is anything I could be doing to get a split second spell to sit on the stack while damage triggers go off without needing a morph creature sitting on standby?
TehGrief on Can an animated Journey to …
1 week ago
Active player controls Opalescence and plays Journey to Nowhere; is the player able to target the Journey to Nowhere with its own ETB trigger? If it leaves, does it immediately return?
Rhadamanthus on Does an animated Sword of …
1 week ago
I understand the example of Emrakul's Evangel, but the one potential issue I see there is the use of "other non-Eldrazi creatures" grouping the Evangel in with the set of creatures sacrificed to pay the cost, which is why it's included in the count. I'm at the point now where I'm not totally convinced by either argument, yours or mine.
Yesterday on Does an animated Sword of …
1 week ago
I think that considering that the sacrifice of Sword of the Ages and the creatures are both part of the cost in the same sentence (meaning they happen functionally simultaneously*), and also considering that "in this way" is not an established rules phrase that could refer to either distinguished batch exclusively, it must refer to them all, right?
*I know that while Cone of Flame and the likes do technically happen in sequential order, it doesn't matter in most cases because SBAs aren't checked in the interim. It would matter if the Sword were also given an ability that saw other things dying, but that's not really relevant.
While it's admittedly a weird situation, let's elaborate on the Emrakul's Evangel comparison. If the Evangel were turned into a noncreature permanent, it would not still produce a token if it only sacrificed itself. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. Logically, I think jarncards must be right.
jarncards on Does an animated Sword of …
2 weeks ago
Initially I was unsure but over time I've become increasingly convinced that it counts itself.
Emrakul's Evangel has the following oracle text: Sacrifice this creature and any number of other non-Eldrazi creatures: Create a 3/2 colorless Eldrazi Horror creature token for each creature sacrificed this way.
This one counts itself through virtually the same words, because it also happens to be a creature. The "this creature" on Emrakul's Evangel and "this artifact" on the Sword of the Ages replace using names because names were unclear to some players when clones or copying was involved, but the words always mean "this thing" even if it's no longer an artifact or creature at all, and exists solely to be self referential. So I can't see how if a card functionality reads "sacrifice this permanent and any number of creatures" wouldn't count itself as long as it's a creature given that other cards work this way
Rhadamanthus on brazen cannonade and Mobilize or …
2 weeks ago
Swebb87: That rule is for a noncreature permanent somehow being put onto the battlefield attacking or blocking. Only creatures can attack and block, so that rule is just clarifying how to treat an unusual situation where a noncreature is somehow put onto the battlefield by an effect that brings things in attacking or blocking.
FatFreddiesCat on Willbreaker and assassination creatures
2 weeks ago
Thanks. I was afraid that was the sequence. But also thanks for pointing out the action slot after gaining control. This might be useful.
magpie3728 on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
Wow! Thank you so much, this is all very helpful stuff. I feel like picking Shiko and Narset, Unified as my first deck when playing the game for the first time was a bit crazy. But hey the learning curve has helped me to really dig into the rules, thanks for all the clarification on this. It’s only been 4 months and I am loving this game so much.
Swebb87 on brazen cannonade and Mobilize or …
2 weeks ago
Ok thanks, I'm so confused by this game. I saw other comments on similar threads about different cards that reference the below rule??
506.3a If an effect would put a noncreature permanent onto the battlefield attacking or blocking, the permanent does enter the battlefield but it’s never considered to be an attacking or blocking permanent.
Gidgetimer on brazen cannonade and Mobilize or …
2 weeks ago
Yes, the tokens are attacking creatures.
They were never declared as attackers, if something cares about that. But they are attacking.
Neotrup on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
Spells that say "each opponent" won't be copied. It needs to either explicitly have the word "target," or have targeting somehow baked into the rules. The only ones I can think of with special targeting rules are auras and mutate spells, both of which use keywords (enchant and mutate).
303.4a An Aura spell requires a target, which is defined by its enchant ability.
702.140a Mutate appears on some creature cards. It represents a static ability that functions while the spell with mutate is on the stack. "Mutate [cost]" means "You may pay [cost] rather than pay this spell's mana cost. If you do, it becomes a mutating creature spell and targets a non-Human creature with the same owner as this spell." Casting a spell using its mutate ability follows the rules for paying alternative costs (see 601.2b and 601.2f–h).
magpie3728 on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
All super helpful, in the case of a card that says to “each opponent” is it targeting them? Like could it be copied in Shiko and Narset, Unified flurry ability? Like Ruinous Rampage
I also am curious because I read that Aura enchantments can be copied as the second spell? When is it true that it targets a permanent or player but doesn’t say target specifically?
legendofa on Does Past in Flames apply …
2 weeks ago
This comes from the release notes for the card: "Past in Flames affects only cards in your graveyard at the time it resolves. Instant and sorcery cards put into your graveyard later in the turn won't gain flashback."
TehGrief on Does Past in Flames apply …
2 weeks ago
Past in Flames gives "Each instant and sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn", does that only apply to Instants and Sorceries that are currently in the graveyard? Or if I were to cast one after, would I be able to cast it again using Flashback?
legendofa on Willbreaker and assassination creatures
2 weeks ago
You gain control of the targeted creature, then it dies right afterwards.
Here's how I see it breaking down in this scenario.
-
You target a green creature with Eastern Paladin. This triggers Willbreaker's ability, which goes on the stack.
-
The stack starts to resolve from newest event to oldest event. Assuming nothing else is happening, the most recent event on the stack is the Willbreaker ability. It resolved, and you gain control of the green creature.
-
If you want to do anything with it, here's your chance, but it has to be instant-speed. Paladin's ability is still on the stack.
-
Paladin's ability resolves, and the green creature is destroyed.
Swebb87 on brazen cannonade and Mobilize or …
2 weeks ago
Do the tokens that come in tapped and attacking whenever triggering a Mobilize ability or Najeela's, trigger cannonade if they die in combat step?
FatFreddiesCat on Willbreaker and assassination creatures
2 weeks ago
I have Willbreaker in play. I target opponent's green creature creature with Eastern Paladin. Will I gain control of the creature before it is destroyed by the Paladin? In other words, which prevails, the control or the dying?
Rhadamanthus on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
To that last question: in general, the text of a card is always talking to its controller, unless it's specifically giving a different player an instruction or the effect would only make sense if some other player was involved. A copy effect that just says to make a copy of something is only talking to the controller of the copy effect, so that player is the one who will make a copy. If someone else is supposed to make a copy then the text of the effect will say so specifically, like on Bonus Round, Eye of the Storm or cards with the Demonstrate ability like Excavation Technique.
Rhadamanthus on Does an animated Sword of …
2 weeks ago
I admit I was stumped on this for a couple days and curious to see if someone else would take a crack at it first.
The way I see it, the big problem with interpreting this is that the game's detailed rules don't seem have a formal definition or explanation for what "in this way" specifically means. The words "in this way" are intended to refer back to a particular instruction, but you've found something where the current Oracle text seems to be more ambiguous in a way than the original printed text.
The printed text for Sword of the Ages is a little more direct in its intent, with "these creatures" more clearly referring to the "as many creatures as you choose" that were sacrificed as part of the activation cost, and then continuing to talk about the Sword and the sacrificed creatures separately in the instruction to remove them from the game. My opinion is we should take this as a hint to interpret "in this way" in the Oracle text to mean "in the way that sacrificing creatures was described earlier" and to exclude the part of the cost that requires sacrificing Sword of the Ages, even if it happened to be a creature at the time.
magpie3728 on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
Okay so I was also confused because I thought the same thing if they are copying it, aren’t they giving me the copied extra turn? Especially because it doesn’t have a target - but I think I understand. Is there any instances where them copying temporal manipulation actually does copy an extra turn for myself? Like maybe the wording doesn’t include target in the copy. I am so confused lol
Noire_Samhain on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
Thank you for correcting that, I was reading some stuff wrongly with my answer.
Neotrup on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
Twincast's controller copies the spell, so they will take the extra turn, not give you one. If they used Redirect they would not be able to change who Temporal Manipulation gives the extra turn to.
If you cast Temporal Manipulation and your opponent casts Wild Ricochet targeting it, they won't change the target, but they will get their own copy giving themselves an extra turn, so both players will take an extra turn.
Noire_Samhain on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
Since the spell they're twincasting does not target it would just copy the spell as is, meaning they would be giving you an extra turn.
magpie3728 on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
If my opponent then copied the spell would they take an extra turn? Or would it copy for me? Like if they copied with Twincast I think I am just getting confused about the differences between targeting and not targeting in these instances. Maybe even some context into that would be helpful.
Thanks
Noire_Samhain on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
It does not target you so therefore does not get copied. It does need to say it targets to target anyone, and if an extra turn spell doesn't say it targets someone it just gives you an extra turn. Narset+Shiko cannot copy it for this reason, however as a plus an opponent cannot redirect it to themselves or another player.
magpie3728 on Does Shiko and Narset, Unified …
2 weeks ago
Hey all,
My question relates to the text on Shiko and Narset, Unified, which says “if it targets a permanent or player” cards like Temporal Manipulation or Capture of Jingzhou they don’t directly mention me as the target and so my friend is saying they don’t copy on the second spell, as opposed to Time Warp which does say target player, but I had made the assumption that because those cards are being applied to me as the player that they would count because they don’t affect anything but the player. I can understand it needing to be explicitly mentioned “target” but what I don’t understand is if it isn’t mentioned who is the card actually targeting? And ultimately are those cards able to be copied as my second?
I have been running Shiko and Narset, Unified as an upgraded commander since it came out but I was also brand new to the game so there’s stuff I am still learning about it. So I could be wrong, I am just confused if there is no mention of target and yet it’s being applied to a permanent or player isn’t it still being copied?
Any clarification helps.
Thank you,
jarncards on Does an animated Sword of …
2 weeks ago
Sword of the Ages can be turned into a creature through various means like Animate Artifact , Rise and Shine and many others.
Oracle text reads: tap, Sacrifice this artifact and any number of creatures you control: This artifact deals X damage to any target, where X is the total power of the creatures sacrificed this way, then exile this artifact and those creature cards.
It seems that this artifact would also be one of the creatures sacrificed in the cost while animated, and so would add its power to X, but I'm not sure.
Anyone know for certain how this works?
DemonDragonJ on How Does Aurelia Work with …
2 weeks ago
Rhadamanthus, thank you, very much, for your answer!
Rhadamanthus on How Does Aurelia Work with …
2 weeks ago
They get two additional combat phases, but the timing of the untaps means it's a little tricky to make the most of both of them.
Let's say the player has the two triggers resolve in the order Trigger A then Trigger B. As Trigger A resolves, they untap all their creatures, then insert Additional Combat A into the turn order right after the current combat. As Trigger B resolves, they untap all their creatures and insert Additional Combat B into the turn order right after the current combat. So after the current combat, Additional Combat B will occur first, followed directly by Additional Combat A. However, there won't be another untap between B and A. That part of the effect is already over and done with. So only creatures with vigilance, creatures that didn't tap to attack during B, or who can be untapped by some other means will be able to attack during A.
Rhadamanthus on Valkyrie's Call and Zur, Eternal …
2 weeks ago
nbrother: My reasoning was based on the "what it applies to" note in 618.8a, not the "what it does" note. A non-creature can't be given a creature subtype, so Zur's type-changing effect changes what Call's subtype-changing effect can apply to.
DemonDragonJ on How Does Aurelia Work with …
2 weeks ago
If a player controls both Aurelia, the Warleader and Isshin, Two Heavens as One and then attacks with Aurelia, what shall happen? How many additional combat phases will that player have?
nbrother on Valkyrie's Call and Zur, Eternal …
3 weeks ago
Rhadamanthus, to save you a click through to the article that I linked:
The reason I landed on the "does" = "attempts to do" side of this is I was convinced by the first dependency example that's in the CR:
(613.9) - Example: Two effects are affecting the same creature: one from an Aura that says
“Enchanted creature has flying” and one from an Aura that says “Enchanted creature loses
flying.” Neither of these depends on the other, since nothing changes what they affect or
what they’re doing to it. Applying them in timestamp order means the one that was
generated last “wins.” The same process would be followed, and the same result reached, if
either of the effects had a duration (such as “Target creature loses flying until end of turn”)
or came from a non-Aura source (such as “All creatures lose flying”)
This example is a perfect illustration that Wizards wants "does" = "attempts to do" and not "does" = "outcome". “Enchanted creature has flying” and “Enchanted creature loses flying.” is exactly an example where there would be a change to the outcome when you switch the order. (the creature either has flying or doesn't) and Wizards says in this example that there is no dependency.
nbrother on Valkyrie's Call and Zur, Eternal …
3 weeks ago
Hey Rhadamanthus, In your bio, you mentioned that we should post a response when we think there's a potential issue in one of your rules posts. I think this could be one of those instances, but I'm not totally sure. There are several conflicting sources online discussing the correct interpretation of "does" in rule 613.8a.b.
A few sources say that "does" in this section indicates "a change to what the first effect is attempting to do" and not "a change to what the outcome of the first effect is".
In the case described in this thread, the order that the continuous effects are applied in layer 4 changes the outcome of the first effect (is the animated enchantment an angel?), but doesn't change what the first effect is attempting to do (give the permanent flying and the subtype angel).
Your ruling depends on interpreting "a change to what the first effect does" as "a change to what the outcome of the first effect is".
Detailed explanation of the the differences in this interpretation of Dependency is discussed here: https://outsidetheasylum.blog/dependency/
Do you know of an authoritative source or card ruling that can help to codify what the correct interpretation of the 613.8a.b "dependency 'does'" is?
Gidgetimer on Does "choose a creature" equal …
3 weeks ago
I mean to be fair, I said "yes, it dies" not "yes, it does". You aren't wrong that it can be misleading in a google search though especially with it only being a letter off.
Swebb87 on Sagas?!?? Yojimbo & Lilysplash mentor
3 weeks ago
Thanks both massively appreciated the answers. Completely makes sense about the only as a sorcery bit of text on Lilysplash. Great to know in general!!
Neotrup on Sagas?!?? Yojimbo & Lilysplash mentor
3 weeks ago
I believe something was missed here. Rhadamanthus's answer is generally correct about Sagas and Summon: Yojimbo, however don't work for Lilysplash Mentor as its activated ability specifies "Activate only as a sorcery." This means you need to wait for your main phase, the lore counter to be added, and it's ability to fully resolve before you get to use it. If you want to use it before the fourth counter is added, you'll need to activate the ability the same turn that the third counter gets added, missing out on creating the treasures. In order to get the interaction you want, you'll need an ability without the sorcery speed restriction, like that of Emiel the Blessed.
Rhadamanthus on Sagas?!?? Yojimbo & Lilysplash mentor
3 weeks ago
Yes to both.
- You're right, adding a lore counter to a saga is a turn-based action that happens at the start of your first main phase. If you want to want to bounce/blink it before that happens, it means you just have to do it before your draw step ends, either during your upkeep step or during your draw step.
- Every chapter ability is a triggered ability, so if a saga gets a lore counter that triggers its final chapter ability, you can respond to the trigger before it starts resolving. The completed saga won't be put into the graveyard until that trigger is off the stack (either because it resolved or because it fizzled or got countered)