Modern Mardu Token Control?
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Dec. 11, 2015, 2:01 a.m. by RoarMaster
So a recent thread on here got me thinking(called "why is it so hard to build Mardu" or somesuch), why is there no Mardu presence in Modern? As far as I have been able to find there has only been one Mardu top 8 placing, a midrange build from awhile ago. Plenty of Jund, Grixis, Azban, Esper, see significant play, and even Jeskai decks make the list occasionally. These are all color combos that share 2 out of 3 colors with Mardu. Grixis and esper dont have Goyf, so they too are missing that 'Resilient Beater Two Drop' that the general consensus was it was missing. It makes up for that with Snapcaster Mage I guess, but snappy is not a resilient beater at all, so what does blue have in that spot? Delver of Secrets Flip? I dont think so. So why does Mardu get the shaft if blue can do it without the 2 drop beater slot? I guess the obvious answer would be 'Counterspells!', but counterspells dont swing you the game on a clear field or apply pressure early so they are a poor analogy to use I feel.
But I digress hugely from my original point of the post here. Im just still unsure why the color combination fails. But thats not what I started this thread for.
Ok, back on topic. So the talk of Mardu tokens got me interested, it had a good base of cards readily available to it and it was a nifty idea. Kind of a blending of two already established decks, Grixis Control and B/W Tokens. They would both benefit from the advantages of great cards not readily available to them. Grix Control would love some Path to Exiles and Lightning Helixs if it could, while Tokens gets some support in Young Pyromancer and a nice selection of removal its otherwise denied.
Here is what Ive thrown together so far: Wardu Mardu
Everything Im about to say is obviously just educated guesses and research, as I have not built or tested this deck. I would love if you guys could help me out and point out anything I may not have thought about or missed :) Im going to briefly touch on a few concepts and cards in the deck, give some thoughts and see what you all have to say on the matter. Stats and info comes from mtgtop8.
Creatures to Inst/Sor and other Prowessables: So this is always a fairly tough balance to make in order to get reliable use out of Young Pyromancer and to a lesser degree Monastery Mentor. For reference I used various grixis control(that contained pyromancer) and delver builds to get an idea of what an allowable number of creatures was. Most decks were running a suprisingly high(to me at least) number of creatures, 13 in fact, with a bottom end of 10 which I would have assumed to be more reasonable. The only filtering being Serum Visions. I feel pretty safe having 12, being below average and not so reliant on flipping a delver, but also not having visions to do so.
Lifeloss vs lifegain: Having both dark confidant and bitterblossom, AND a three color mana base can be pretty damn taxing on the ol life total. We dont have a shitton of stuff, but I think if should be enough. Kinda depends a bit on the number of bitterblossoms end up in here I guess too. So far theres a Suture Priest and 4 Lightning Helixs. Thinking about it now, Im not so sure thats going to be enough. Hmmmm. Urrr, damn whats that land called? Chapel something? Nah. Hmmm. Cant remember the name, anyway gives deathtouch and lifelink to your critters though. Yeah, could probably toss 1-2 of them in to help for sure. Any ideas? How to counteract this slightly one sided life loss? Im not really counting butcher since he is late game tech.
Young Pyromancer Ive got 3 in there now, Id kind of like to up it to 4. The majority of grix delver decks run 2 if they have them, and the odd few with 4. They however dont really give a f$&k about tokens, so they cannot fully benefit from them the way mardu can with Intangible Virtue, so I feel that probably justifies running 3 at the minimum and 4 if it seems viable. Which I think it should be. What do you think, up to 4? And what to drop?
Monastery Mentor guy doesnt see a ton of play, but the guy places really well suprisingly when he does, lol. Generally run as a 4x with 10 creatures, or 2x with 15 creatures, at the moment he is 3 in my list, but again, those lists dont care about tokens. So I think it it pretty legit to up him to 4 if there was room, especially since Im running enchantments to trigger him that those lists are not running.
Butcher of the Horde Your all like "wut?". Seriously though, this guy is a pretty boss finisher, especially with tokens laying around to sac(looking at you pyromancer). He is a little steep on the curve at 4 mana, but Dark Confidant might help me get there sooner, and 22 land is not too far short of playing him in decent time in a control build. Even if you hit him off Dark confidant, taking a hit for four, you hopefully will be able to sac 2 tokens and give him lifelink and haste in order to swing and make it all and a bit more back. If your in dire straights with no tokens, use him as a blocker and sac dark confidant for the lifelink, gain it back and not take the pain from Dark confidant at your upkeep. I seriously think this guy is the bomb, he dodges bolts and Abrupt Decay, stabalizes and outraces pretty much anything if you can keep feeding him. I do not know why this guy is not a thing already somewhere, bloodghast or something? I dont know, Im getting off topic here again, sorry.
The Enchantments Bitterblossom and Intangible Virtue. FML, why cannot I fit all the good things I want in my deck, damnit! Another one of those "I should run 4, but no room" things. I think intangible is more important than bitterblossom? All this talk about how this deck 'cares about tokens' and I think I kinda gotta run 4x intangible virtue... Somebody help a guy out here, should I drop the number of bitters in favor of another intangible or should I cut something else instead. Tokens decks run 4x after all, the cool kids are doing it :P
Suture Priest he is a bit of an oddball, but nullifies bitterblossom drawback and hopefully a bit of dark confidants too. Soul sister for me, which should be pretty worthwhile with the number of creature and tokens in it, while still managing to keep the pressure on the opponent(maybe). I dont know, Im a fan of innovation and trying new things and all, but I just dont know man, just dont know. There are some balling cards vying for his spot
Bile Blight Because our token matchup is probably bad, and this helps while still remaining relevant. Right? Riiiiight...?
Im pretty sure every thing else in there is fairly self explanatory, if not, feel free to discuss.
Possible strengths and weaknesses of the deck? Ideas on what to switch around? Random conversation on Mardu? All good. Love to hear it.
RoarMaster says... #3
Erm, thanks for the plug to a descriptionless deck I guess? If you could give some insight as to why you are or nor not running cards, that would help a lot. Is there a reason you are not running confidant or helix? Id understand if there was a description with pertinent information that came along with your deck so I could be like 'Oh, thats why he choose to play that instead! Nice, that makes sense.'
So if you could elaborate on your deck, my deck, or the original post, that would be awesome! Thanks man :)
December 11, 2015 2:36 a.m.
lol yeah sorry, i guess i figured the list kind of spoke for itself, i just haven't got around to writing the description yet haha. as for helix/terminate, i have so much removal i felt it was redundant, but i go back and forth with whether i should run a mixture or something...as for BOB, i dont own and cant afford...but even if i did, i dont like him all that much...id def run the helix if i did though...i think im about to add some number of crack the earth as well.
December 11, 2015 2:46 a.m.
Actually Grixis and Esper don't see a lot of play. Theyre are certainly not tier 1. Not even close.
And what you have just discovered is that the blue decks are better at doing control than the others......
December 11, 2015 6:31 a.m.
Grixis was a huuuuge player for a while but died back fairly quickly due to a lack of consistency. Delving out an early tasigur or angler is nice but it can't do it often enough.
Esper and Jeskai decks play midrange occasionally but they suffer the same weakness. At least they have Geist of Saint Traft though who puts up serious pressure when he swings in. Though their absence is again fuelled by their inability to quickly switch between aggro and control for cheapsies.
December 11, 2015 6:36 a.m.
RoarMaster says... #7
ChiefBell Yeah, Im well aware how well blue does control, being a legacy player. But in modern its fairly well established that the classic blue draw-go control technique is overshadowed by what some call a more 'pro-active' form of removal. Hand disruption mainly, and control strategies of the BGx variety have taken over. An untapped B and G is as much a threat as two U to in most modern circumstances.
As for Grixis Control, well it is the second most played modern control deck right now. It won 1st on mtgo like 4 days ago(admittedly mtgo is not a good example), but it also took first place in a couple tourneys within the last month and a bit. And grixis control strategies have been around for a lot longer than tasigur and delvy friends, and have to a large degree strayed back away from the delve heavy builds. When they only run 2 tasigur as far as delve cards go, I dont think they are betting on getting an early tasigur/angler(not seen in most decks) reliably.
As for being tier 1, thats not really what Im trying to do here. I have no delusions of grandeur that mardu token control is going to tear the modern format wide open or anything. Im sure the modern players enjoy diversity however, and if there is a fringe deck makable out of it, great. Martyr life, boggles, gifts, ect ect. Not tier 1 definitely, but still see placement occasionally and are played by many.
If you are only interested in tier one decks, then this is not going to be the deck or post for you. Im sorry to have wasted your time reading about a non-tier 1 deck, although having read the title, and you already being of the opinion that mardu cant do tier 1 anyway, I would have assumed you knew that already.
But while you are here, if you dont mind lowering yourself to the level of us 1.5 plebs, Ill try and get some info out of you. While its still fairly early on in the development stages, Im looking for insight on what will be poor matchups for a list along these lines. Hopefully I will be able to modify the mainboard to suit these potential rough matches, or at least see where the decks main shortcommings will be. Cheers.
December 11, 2015 7:40 a.m.
GreenGhost says... #8
I mean grixis runs Tasigur, the Golden Fang I'd call that a beater. Back on topic though, I made a mardu tokens deck based on Impact Tremors for a friend. I'd be interested in trying to create a strong mardu tokens deck with you though, cause you know the old adage about two heads being better.
December 11, 2015 8:31 a.m.
GreenGhost says... #9
Also instead of Bile Blight run Zealous Persecution because it is good against elves, infect, affinity and the mirror match. The main power of tokens decks is that removal doesn't really work against us, so keep that in mind.
December 11, 2015 8:37 a.m.
RoarMaster - I think you're misunderstanding a few things, and I don't mean that in a patronising way at all because I'm totally up for discussing this reasonably.
My tier 1 comment was just in relation to the assertion that Grixis, Jeskai, Esper etc. see significant play. In my book, they don't see significant play. They see some play but not a large amount. I wasn't saying "this isn't tier 1" as if its bad. I was saying "this isn't tier 1" in order to communicate that Esper, Jeskai, Grixis are fairly rare and do have some significant problems with them. Problems that are worth addressing.
The comments about control having to be more proactive aren't necessarily in relation to the control spells that they run, they're in relation to the design of the deck overall. A proactive control deck is one that not only reacts to the opponent by removing their threats but also actively plays cards to win the game at the same time. Proactive control lands a T2 or T3 threat AND also keeps up countermagic. This is why we see a little Jeskai control because they can play out something like Geist of Saint Traft very early in the game and also hold up Lightning Bolt or something else. That's an example of being proactive. You are not merely reacting to the opponent, you are also actively presenting win conditions of your own. Grixis control is also really good because as early as turn 3 they can have a 4/5 on the board and also enough mana for a Mana Leak. That's an example of a proactive control deck. They're not necessarily midrange because, as you highlighted, they don't run many delve threats - they still play most of their spells on the opponents turn. BUT they have many options to burn out the opponent or otherwise win the game quickly. Bolt-snap-bolt will always be a classic. These are control decks that don't just play a single Keranos, God of Storms and wait for about 10 turns haha.
So anyway, let's move our attention to mardu and look at the problems we have, and the potential solutions. First of all you need to understand that mardu doesn't have 2 mana threats that can both attack and defend. This means that playing truly versatile midrange is pretty much impossible. The deck can't switch between aggro and control quickly enough and reliably enough to imitate Abzan or Jund.
What Mardu CAN do is play very resilient threats of its own - but only later in the game. It can play a lot of 1 mana removal and control. It can also play lots of 2 mana threats that are weak defensively, but strong on the attack.
There are two options I can see. 1) A fast control deck that plays paths, bolts, and other control spells T1 or T2 then slams down a Brimaz, King of Oreskos or similar and beats down. 2) A tempo deck that plays lots of weak tokens or creatures (Young Pyromancer) but clears a path for them with killspells such as path or terminate. Lets be clear here - neither of those strategies are truly midrange. Option 1 wont be physically able to play a turn 2 threat if it wants early aggression. Option 2 won't be able to play a defensive threat if it needs an early wall. But they're viable. They just lack a little flexibility.
I can see mardu tokens being a thing. Or even boros tokens that splashes a single black for Lingering Souls. But you'd have a hard time convincing me it's better than orzhov. One of the strengths of tokens is that it doesn't die to killspells. A lot of the stuff you get in red such as Young Pyromancer does - and so it takes away some of your flexibility. So I'm not sure you necessarily want red? Impact Tremors is a good card though, and xzzane has a sweet tokens deck that does splash red for it. Though again, his list just includes Lightning Bolt and Impact Tremors, there are no creatures.
I think if you want to play mardu then maybe tokens isn't the way to go because orzhov tokens just is better. What you could well do is play a heavier control deck that uses white token creating cards as win conditions. So instead of 4 Lingering Souls and 4 Spectral Procession and lots of anthems you could cut it down to maybe 5 or 6 token creating cards and replace the slots you just freed up with control options.
Just have a think about a few things:
Why is red important?
Does adding creatures to a tokens deck threaten the overall strategy?
Am I playing into my strengths in mardu or am I forcing a colour in?
Could I accumulate tokens in a creature heavy build that works differently?
These are things to talk about.
December 11, 2015 9:59 a.m.
Jamesfurrow says... #11
Ive Seen Mardu decks before but they fail agaisnt jund, and junk for the fact their not able to present the same pace of pressure. For instance a Lightning Helix deals with less than an Abrupt Decay in the sence of diversity. Decay kills lili of the veil while helix can potentially not if they choose to plus her. Also mardu lacks 2v1 creature options like Huntmaster of the Fells Flip to go into their list. Yes both can use Kitchen Finks but mardu can't also use Scavenging Ooze like jund or junk. Though having brimaz is powerful with rabblemaster and butcher can work.
You essentially have the standard disruption of Thoughtseize and inquistion, Path to Exile Lightning Bolt, Terminate. That's a lot of control right there allowing you to lose that turn 2 bomb is you set up the situation correctly. Unfortunately mardu has the problem of being protective over proactive. Token variants suffer greatly from that since they do not have as much removal for the hopes of being more powerful
I would try the control route that uses rabblemaster, brimaz, and Lingering Souls with other 2v1 creatures like Kitchen Finks to make the opponents exhaust resources while your 1 card keeps generating more resource and you have plethora of removal. Also having in that varient Dark Confidant makes sence since nothing in the list will cost over 3 mana and they can all force the opponent to burn through removal
December 11, 2015 12:45 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #12
Green_Ghost I had not thought of impact tremors, an interesting idea for sure, but Im not too sure if it would really be worth it. I dont think it would have as much of an impact(ha!) as bitterblossom or intangible virtue as a non-creature 2 drop. I dont know though, probably worth looking into it a bit closer, I just wish it could hit critters. If you have a link to that deck you said you made for your buddy, Id love to take a gander for ideas :)
Jamesfurrow Yeah Mardu doesnt have the beater of goyf, but it does have plenty of 2for1 creatures available to it. Hero of Bladehold I feel is an accurate comparison to Huntsmaster for example. You say that token builds suffer due to lack of running removal, I think that is probably much more applicable to the classic orzhov tokens stategy than Mardu, as the list I have thrown together above runs 16 removal spells(same as jund, junk, grix control, and delver builds), while still having 12 token generators(placing token decks run 10-14 token makers). Against junk and Jund, they generally only run 8 threats(3 that die to bolt), and Im running 16 removal, 6 unconditional. This is a fairly even balance of their threats and my answers, and I have the advantage of chumping occasionally with tokens, meaning I shouldnt be too preassured by their threats of goyf and ooze. Im not a fan of rabblemaster at all myself, too expensive for too little immediate impact, and no resilience. It has also apparently only ever showed up once, as a one off, in any modern deck on mtgtop8, which kinda supports my opinion. I do run Dark Confidant in my list as well.
ChiefBell Thanks for the reply. Cleared some stuff up for me. One thing though, you said 'Proactive control is when they land a T2-3 threat and have mana open for removal" Which is kind of my impression of what midrange is trying to do(pretty sure I remember you saying something similar at some point). Is the difference between control and midrange then just removal vs counterspells?
In answer to your questions:
1) What does red bring to the table? Other than Lightning Bolt(the most played modern card), Lightning Helix(allows me to more comfortably run dark confidant), and Terminate(more great removal)? Red turns Orzhov tokens into control, and I think the more applicable question may be "What does Orzhov have that Mardu wants?" The only think I can think of is spectral procession, and I dont think that one fairly good card is worth removing 3 other great-to-good cards for. Red also gives us young pyromancer, a card that is run as 2x-4x in grix control lists that run about the same number of instant/sorceries as me, and cannot take advantage of token buffs. So if they feel its worthwhile running, why would it not be in mardu, where the card is even more applicable due to intangible virtue?
2) Does adding creatures to a token deck threaten the strategy? Simple answer is obviously yes. But I dont think its that simple of a matter really, as most token decks rely on numbers rather than removal in order to get damage through. At the moment Im running 6 non token making creatures, Bob(who is good enough to warrent adding even though he doesnt make tokens), a singleton suture priest(who benefits from token strategies), and Butcher of the Horde, who also kinda synergizes with tokens(sorta). Im running 13 token producers, which is comparable to mono white and orzhov builds(10-14), so I dont really feel like Im dilluting the token build too much by adding the creatures I have.
3) Playing to strengths or forcing it? I feel like the color that is being 'forced' here would be white I guess, the color that could most easily be dropped would be black, and the color Im most reliant on for removal would be red. Black simply accentuates the removal and tokens, while the removal suite would be very limited without red, and there just wouldnt be a token strategy in the first place if not for white.
4) Could we accumulate tokens in a creature heavy build that works differently? I guess it kinda depends on what you mean by'works differently'. Is there enough viable token producing creatures out there that do not rely on non-creatures? Probably, but they tend to be a bit steeper on the mana. Huntsmaster, doomed traveller?(lol), rabblemaster(yuck), blade splicer(imho not as uber-efficient as people seem to think he is) and hero of bladehold all jump to mind. Then you are looking at a deck comprised of a ton of 3-4 drops and lacking a lot in the way or removal, and almost all of which die to bolt. So really, no, I do not think that a more creature heavy token build is viable. Unless you can give me some ideas as to cheaper, efficient token makers in the 1-2 drop area at least.
December 11, 2015 8:19 p.m.
Jamesfurrow says... #14
The reason I don't consider hero of blade hold a 2v1 is because she doesn't provide her advantage until she swings in combat. Huntmaster just does right away. He gains life and he provides a second body the same turn he enters. And he provides pressure in the sence he has to be removed otherwise he is a 4/4 trampler that deals 2 damage to you and a creature you control with potential of flipping and doing this all over again. Brimaz and hero will provide more board state but it's not 2v1 because it's not immediate effects like how finks and huntmaster do. Finks is more because he can come back a second time.
And yes you run a lot of removal as you should. I even said you have plenty of it hence why you don't need 2 drop bombs. But I didn't mention last time was Mardu lacks late game that junk or jund has. Both have acess to Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse to ignore your huge board states and can activate a Tasigur, the Golden Fang's ability to keep regaining their awnsers or threats. And the mans lands they have acess to that you don't have very powerful capabilities Treetop Village, Raging Ravine and Stirring Wildwood all provide more resilene or power than Shambling Vent and Lavaclaw Reaches
December 12, 2015 12:08 p.m.
Orzhov tokens has a way more consistent and less painful manabase. It also casts Spectral Procession better. I argue that with Path to Exile and black removal like Smother or Victim of Night or Doom Blade you really dont need Lightning Bolt. Tokens already is a control/aggro hybrid, and it does it fine without red. In fact, in my opinion, literally all red does is allow you to be more aggressive with bolt and impact tremors.
A tokens deck has strength in that all of the opponents removal is wasted. If you add creatures you give them targets for their removal and you take away a major upside to playing the deck. Some creatures are worth it - but if you only play 4 creatures then dont expect them to last long.
Black is important for Bitterblossom, Sorin, Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek etc. Black is vitally improtant to tokens and you need to remember that. A tokens deck essentialyl can't win against Twin without Black. Or Tron, for that matter. It's a HUGE colour.
Just remember these things and appreciate what the existing deck does before you start trying to reinvent the wheel. The wheel exists as it is and it's fine. Make sure you know exactly what you're doing and WHY if you change it.
I'm not wholly against mardu but so far I haven't seen sufficient reason to both except bolt which is 1 card.
December 12, 2015 4:34 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #16
ChiefBell Its pretty obvious that orzhov has a less painful manabase, but mardu has access to may ways to negate that via soul sister like effects if need be, and a painful manabase has not really stopped any other deck from making, many without any sort of lifegain to nullify it, insert lightning helix. And when I answered your question, I specifically said Orzhov has spectral procession over mardu, thanks for reiterating that though. And why would you want to run victem of night or doom blade when you could be running terminate or dreadbore(sorcery, ya, I know)? And other than bolt, and terminate, there is also lightning helix, so really there are a lot of cards, cards some could argue are strictly better, that are gained from adding red.
Mardu tokens still has the strength of not relying on creatures to generate tokens, its got lingering and bitterblossom at the forefront, and most b/w tokens lists only run spectral procession as additional token makers(some got raise the alarm admittedly). And as the list, and I have said before, Im not running 4 creatures, but 12, so why you would bother to say "if you only play 4 creatures dont expect them to last long", I dont know.
And yes, black is important, thats why its mardu tokens, not boros tokens. Like what are you trying to say here? Black is in the deck, black plays a large role in the deck, you dont have to convince me to add black to a mardu list...
I personally dont believe in the "The wheel exists and its fine" way of thinking. If that was the case there would be all of one deck people played in tourneys. Its called innovation. Its called experimentation. Its called progress. Its thinking outside of the box. Its something other than just netdecking. Its creation. Its the only reason we can even chat to each other over the internet. Without innovation and the stretching of boundaries and trying new things, we would still be swinging in the trees.
Seriously though, I feel like we are going around in circles here, Im not sure if you are just skimming my posts or what, but I have had to basically answer the same question multiple times, and have you tell me the same thing that I just said to you, while you havent actually answered any of mine. If you dont have the time or interest in this post thats cool man, but half assing it and making us repeat ourselves and shit is just wasting both of our time :P
December 13, 2015 4:57 a.m.
RoarMaster says... #17
May it be noted I have had a few to drink tonight, so spelling, grammar, respect, and decency may be lacking in my post.
Sk0oMa says... #2
In that forum you mentioned, I already posted this: Mardu Token Control
December 11, 2015 2:16 a.m.