Critique the Jund in Standard.
Deck Help forum
Posted on Sept. 29, 2014, 1:48 p.m. by Femme_Fatale
Click on the deck name for the description of why I use each card.
The style of this deck is a midrange control deck that utilizes a superior mana acceleration to present a superior board presence and advantage with high cost permanents and the 
cost. Lots of removal is important, lots of powerful creatures isn't.
Basically, I'm throwing this list out for people to critique it and make suggestions. I have tested a lot of cards to work with this deck when I was making it so there will be a lot of things that I will argue against, but I need different input. I certainly have missed some cards and may have been using certain cards with the wrong cards; and besides, more input = more improvement.
Please make a detailed explanation as to why you suggest something, often times I completely ignore a suggestion because the person didn't explain why it will be good. Then, trying and find which card it will replace is also another way of making a card included. If you suggest to remove the wrong card for X card, then I will more than likely ignore that suggestion.
ArcherAlex says... #3
Hey there! This is a solid deck. The only change that I would suggest is trading 1x Hornet Nest 2x Crater's Claws for 3x Stoke the Flames
My reasoning behind this is that there will be times when you simply want the instant speed trick to kill a planeswalker/creature/hit to the face ORRR my personal favorite, hit Hornet Nest mid combat to create four tokens to block their flying assault. Although I really like Crater's Claws , I have to say that it has underperformed for me and the fact that you aren't running Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx annnd you won't have ferocious (save Sarkhan at only 3 of) it won't be doing god's work here. My last suggestion would be to run only 1x Empty the Pits since you will only want one in the game, ever. If you end up drawing another one, I fear it would just sit in your hand when you really want another removal or creature. Maybe slide in a 1x Liliana Vess for card advantage/force control decks into the ground or just for an amazing one of tutor for your game deciding card. (Or just another Lightning Strike )
Hit me back and let me know what you think of my suggestions, I'm going to try to be more active around here now and would love your feedback as well on my decks! Let me know bud! My last creation is You, Villain.
September 29, 2014 4:08 p.m.
I'm somewhat worried about your manabase in there. Low land count leads you vulnerable to removal and early board clear.
September 29, 2014 4:16 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #5
Moar lands. You are trying to cast two different X-spells, and a five-drop. You've got acceleration, but more lands will always be more consistent than Elvish Mystic .
The finisher package is somewhat lacking. Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker is good, but having something like Nissa, Worldwaker that provides you with a lasting advantage that can quickly get out of hand is very good. I'd certainly play both planeswalkers.
Hornet Nest seems weak in this deck. Since you are a midrange deck, Reaper of the Wilds or Polukranos, World Eater are probably just better cards for that slot.
I feel Bile Blight deserves a maindeck slot or three, just to diversify the removal suite. The mana may be hard, however.
September 29, 2014 6:23 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #6
That's only specific to control match-ups spyroswiz, and is why Reaper of the Wilds is in the side. And it certainly appears that the creature heavy meta is what is coming to be. Not too mention, Lightning Strike 'ing/Crater's Claws 'ing/Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker 'ing my own Hornet Nest to provide much more advantage.
Stoke the Flames ' instant effect certainly seems viable ArcherAlex, however you are suggesting to remove the wrong cards. I do want to propose the potential for Fated Conflagration . It hits a large portion of creatures, almost all planeswalkers the moment they come out, and has that wonderful scry added to it. I would be only using it as a 2 of.
As for removing an Empty the Pits , I already have enough mechanics to limit the bad draws, so it isn't much of an issue. I want 2 because of being able to at least rely on it in games as a win condition, and not just having it as a "lucky win card".
With the changes I'm making for this deck, I'll see if I can sneak another land in here. I'm really not liking Thoughtseize as it is appearing to be lack-luster in the standard meta that I've seen. I'll take it out for the moment to make room for the current suggestions and see how things change around.
I tried out Nissa, Worldwaker
and the main problem was, was that she was trying to use up a base of resources for creatures when I frequently needed to spend that resource on spells, and needed all of that resource (I was using 23 lands then). While I just noticed that there is a severe lack of the words "end of turn" on her that I didn't notice before, I just have a feeling that she won't be as useful in a deck that utilizes a fair portion of cmcs. However, the fact that she lacks any end of turn makes me want to test her out again.
I don't like Bile Blight in the mainboard because it's only current relevancy is against tokens, which only Mardu has at the moment. I will however put another one in.
I'll be slipping Reaper of the Wilds in, but not at the cost of Hornet Nest , playtests have shown that a drastically losing board state an be turned around with one Hornet Nest , and it provides a win con when paired with my many forms of damage removal.
September 29, 2014 11:16 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #7
Needs 4th Courser, Garruk, Apex Predator & Nissa, Worldwaker
September 29, 2014 11:18 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #8
Garruk, Apex Predator and 4th Courser of Kruphix replacing Hero's Downfall and making this deck too much like Jund superfriends anyone?
September 29, 2014 11:30 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #9
Testing it now and removing Empty the Pits because too many permanents that don't die.
September 30, 2014 12:14 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #10
Man, I just had a game that went to turn 18 with a whole lot of nothing happening until I drew a Crater's Claws . However, I like this new form.
September 30, 2014 12:51 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #11
U only need 1x Garruk X. Probably should drop Hornet Nest
and Reaper of the Wilds
in favor of Polukranos, World Eater
some more Thoughtseize
and some Hero's Downfall
. I mean is the scry that important on Fated Conflagration
mana conditional removal that it's worth running over Hero's Downfall
mana unconditional?
...and yea, that's what Coursercaryatid decks do, is grind, which is why they work best with a golgari shell.. ...though golgari removal right now is second rate :/
Just ideas... seems Goblin Rabblemaster or Rakshasa Deathdealer could fit into your shell...
September 30, 2014 1:41 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #12
Im liking the Jund walkers build. Too bad u just lost Mizzium Mortars .
Some Chandra, Pyromaster and Liliana Vess could both offer card advantage.
September 30, 2014 1:46 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #13
You have a point with Fated Conflagration . I'll do a swap back again. However I will not remove Hornet Nest and Reaper of the Wilds in favor of Thoughtseize or Polukranos, World Eater . I never like Polukranos, World Eater because of how easy it is to remove. Hornet Nest as one me TONNES of games. In this situations it is either my win condition, or it halts any attack the opponent can have.
2 Garruk, Apex Predator has worked out quite nicely. I'll keep it like that. Goblin Rabblemaster and Rakshasa Deathdealer will not fit in this shell. Rakshasa Deathdealer 's regenerate will never be used in the first 6 turns, making bringing him out then pointless. His buff also makes him an ample chump block target. Reaper of the Wilds and Crater's Claws both fit this role much more nicer. Goblin Rabblemaster 's tokens won't do much, and it holds no prevalence in a deck that is this slow.
Mizzium Mortars would have been really useful. And no, those two cards are not needed at all. I'm finding that there is nothing in standard that can actually pose a tremendous instant threat that I have to get rid of via discard, so there is the reason I have kept Thoughtseize in the sideboard and why I don't use Liliana Vess . Chandra, Pyromaster doesn't hold much relevancy in a format where toughness is in abundance, and I don't have any instants or sorceries to make its -7 worth it.
September 30, 2014 2:03 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #14
oh my...
okay so lets start at the end, Chandra, Pyromaster offers card advantage through her 0 ability. It's essentially another card to use that turn... Liliana Vess is my least liked of the bunch but her built in discard can stomp control or other faster decks... The targeted discard also offers card advantage. I think you undervalue the discard of things. Thoughtseize doesn't have to hit a Splinter Twin or Assemble the Legion to be effective. Pulling a Soldier of the Pantheon or Bloodsoaked Champion T1 with Thoughtseize can easily delay your opponents options. This is something your deck really needs as it literally has no game plan until T3 or so other than mana rampers.
....which brings about the next topic. Goblin Rabblemaster
is a stand a lone threat that requires no additional mana investment. Sure half of his goblins may be suicidal but who cares, you'll have a huge defensive wall through coursers & caryatids and enough removal to eventually clear a path for him to get through. Just saying Hornet Nest
is CMC too and probably a worst choice. I really want to know what creatures you're going to block with Hornet Nest
all the 1 drops people run are all 2/1. Also with 4x Sylvan Caryatid
which is a better defender in all aspects do u really need 7 defenders, 3 of which are unreliable token gens? When u could just have an aggressive token gen that'll win u games?
Okay, so now onto Rakshasa Deathdealer
which for the record could be chumped blocked all day but u don't have to pump him until after blockers are announced. Who cares if you never use your regeneration, U have a shit ton of excess mana with a creature that you can pump +2/+2 for every 
G in your mana pool. He comes down T2 and can start swinging before you opponent cast their Siege Rhino
. Reaper of the Wilds
is slow, clunky, and doesn't do much for it's 6 mana initial investment. Card isn't worth running at all...
Garruk, Apex Predator is a beast and can easily win u the game. Built in removal for PW & creatures + a beastly token gen. Hell yea. 1 really is the right number though... It takes a while to get 7 mana to get him online and any more copies than 1 are just going to be sitting in your hand. I run a Coursercaryatid Rock deck too and say this from experience...
Polukranos, World Eater
I didn't like this card at first either. I played against it tons and saw it's potential but let's be real, it's no Desecration Demon
. However Dessy has left use and Pooky is the next best thing. 5/5 for 
GG that can get bigger later and is an awesome mana dump with built in removal. It's exactly what your deck wants.
September 30, 2014 11:06 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #15
First, this change in deck no longer makes it midrange, it is now really heavily into removal control, consider that while you think of these cards.
Chandra, Pyromaster doesn't actually DO anything that is of any benefit. There will be too many times where I will NOT want to play the card she exiles, due to the control nature of this deck and how situational each card is. After that, her first and ult are really weak and are more reasons why I should not run her. Besides, what kind of idiot would run so many planeswalkers? I'd be removing cards that shouldn't be removed just to try and fit them in. If they spoil more that are really good, then maybe, but 8 is definitely enough.
I'm not undervaluing discard, I have use it extensively in my modern decks. I do know however, that the amount of threats that are currently in standard that require discarding before they come out, are limited to 2 gods, Purphoros, God of the Forge and Keranos, God of Storms . I'm not having 2-3 slots in my main just for those, they are going in the side. As you can see, I have Thoughtseize , Stain the Mind and Unravel the Aether for all these scenarios.
And my game plan T2? I have a tonne of options. Sylvan Caryatid , Courser of Kruphix , Hero's Downfall , Lightning Strike , Read the Bones , Crater's Claws and Hornet Nest . I think you should probably playtest this deck before tossing out a tonne of accusations.
Goblin Rabblemaster is only meant to be in a deck that is actually attacking. In this control deck, I'm normally sitting on my Sylvan Caryatid s, Courser of Kruphix s and deathtouch tokens brought forth by Hornet Nest while I draw answers to slowly deal with the opponent. The meta is VERY creature dependent, so it is nearly impossible to get the opponent without any creatures. A 1/1 creature that has to swing every turn? What use is that when I regularly sit on 4 1/1 deathtouch fliers until I get some more answers? Oh, and he is very easy to just Lightning Strike .
Hornet Nest unreliable? Why do I have to keep on telling people again and again that THIS CARD ALONE WINS ME GAMES.
Rakshasa Deathdealer has time and time again proven to be an incredibly weak card. There are tonnes of things that can exile him, so the regenerate is quite pointless. Not too mention after you regenerated him, they can still kill him afterwards, which is much harder to do with Reaper of the Wilds . The fact that he can be blocked IS very relevant, as the opponent can continuously block him over and over and over again. I'm not trying to beat my opponent in one run, I'm trying to keep my board state stable against whatever they play while slowing whittling them down with cards that have evasion. That is what a control deck is all about, and Rakshasa Deathdealer does not fit that position.
If you are going to suggest Polukranos, World Eater , I have to once again remind you of CONTROL. Polukranos, World Eater does not fit in a control shell because once again, no evasion from removal or blockers. His monstrous is weak in a standard that, once again, has lots of really high toughness creatures. If I had counterspells, evasion wouldn't be an issue, but I don't. All I've got is a plethora of removal, and I like it that way. The evasion on my creatures is what compensates for my lack of counterspells, and it is important.
I'm also speaking from experience, I playtested about 15 games and know that in order for anything to be worthwhile, I have to actually draw them. Once again, there is a lot of methods to remove stuff in the current standard, even planeswalkers, so just having one means it will get tossed quite easily. I have no counterspells, so I have to compensate by having more. And 2 is a really nice number in this regard because the amount of times that they will actually occur twice in which the one on the current board isn't about to die soon is really slim. As for the mana investment, turn 4-5 is the fastest he generally comes out on.
September 30, 2014 1:03 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #16
I didn't realize that was a control build. Was just making suggestions based off your deck list. Since it's control I would recommend more sweepers Drown in Sorrow & Anger of the Gods . Maybe MB those Bile Blight s, up the HDs to 4 and possible rock a Silence the Believers
BTW Crater's Claws is pretty much just a weaker version of Polukranos, World Eater ...except it can't attack and defend and worst case scenario eat a removal spell.
Anyway good luck with your deck. I think playing control of the black type is far more fun then control of the blue type.
September 30, 2014 2:40 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #17
@Femme_Fatale "Chandra, Pyromaster doesn't actually DO anything that is of any benefit." Personal Howling Mine seems good. It doesn't even matter if you can't play the card, because you get to find the cards you do want to cast more quickly. You are undervaluing card advantage. People don't play planeswalkers specifically for their ultimates, and Chandra is one that you would just keep zeroing. If you want to get aggressive with your guys, her +1 becomes useful. People aren't idiots for running lots of planeswalkers. Jund Planeswalkers nearly won the Pro Tour, and planeswalker strategies are very strong against control.
It doesn't matter that there are only two cards that you absolutely need to take. Thoughtseize ing away a planeswalker or even a removal spell when that may become relevant allows you both to know what their plan is and to disrupt it. It's foolish to think that it should only be played when there are cards that can only be dealt with via discard.
I'll agree that Rakshasa Deathdealer is kinda bad. Having a repeatable blocker that can attack for 4 when you've cleared the board is kinda nice, though.
If you're a control deck, you need more removal/walkers. Reaper of the Wilds isn't the best finisher for your colors, and you only play six removal spells total. The state of the deck right now seems much more suited to a midrange game than a control game.
Hornet Nest is interesting. I think that you could be playing more versatile removal spells like Murderous Cut in its slot, just because the thing can't block flyers (Prognostic Sphinx , Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker and Stormbreath Dragon to name a few that are very relevant), and that Bile Blight is common and matches up well against that particular card.
September 30, 2014 4:26 p.m.
Wait so, a control deck doesn't want a blocker that keep blocking infinite times until it's exiled?
September 30, 2014 4:33 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #19
Also, I think you are misunderstanding the value of one-ofs. That's the whole point of tuning decks, to find the cards that work just enough to earn their allotted slots. If you have a one-of card, it gives you outs to a lot of situations that otherwise you may not have answers to, as well as some surprise factor and versatility. There aren't a whole lot of truly good decks that aren't playing some weird numbers.
September 30, 2014 4:46 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #20
Polukranos, World Eater can't out right kill your opponents with one spell APPLE01DOJ. Nor can it make a massive number of tokens for Hornet Nest . Sweepers I do not like because it actually harms me more than it does any good. Check the toughness on everything.
I play 13 instances of removal GlistenerAgent. Also it doesn't matter if Hornet Nest can't block fliers because I can always Crater's Claws it for say 7 damage, or Lightning Strike it the moment they swing with their flyers.
I'm certainly not under-valuing card advantage, I know how good it is, which is why I'm running Read the Bones . I don't see how Chandra, Pyromaster should be used when there will be too many times where I'll be exiling a card that I would have rather kept in my hand. She doesn't dig as effectively as Read the Bones does, nor can I save whatever I draw for later, something really quite important.
I do agree that I've been walking back and forth with Reaper of the Wilds , but everything everyone's suggesting to replace it has been a bad suggestion so far. I've got an idea to remove it though.
I know the purpose of a one of, and it is particularly relevant in a control deck with the concept of inevitability. However there is one other reason why I do not use one ofs that made it possible to run so many of them in the last Azorius control. And that is the ability to actually make that one of effectively worth it. Azorious control had counterspells to protect its one ofs. I don't. Whatever hits the field has a high chance of being removed and I can't prevent that with the same effectiveness a counterspell can.
September 30, 2014 7:50 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #21
That's a fair assessment of Hornet Nest , and I see why you run the card. I personally wouldn't play it because a removal spell is (usually) a better lategame topdeck when the game grinds out, because this guy hits the board and may be a do-nothing.
Read the Bones is a one-time occurrence, however. Her alongside Courser of Kruphix and fetchlands makes that scenario you brought up a lot more manageable, as you always know when you will get value of off her.
Necropolis Fiend sounds hella fun, especially when you play so much removal.
September 30, 2014 8 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #22
If you're worried about loosing your threats to opposing removal then lower cost threats are the way to go. Stuff like Rakshasa Deathdealer
that even if it dies, mana won't set u back much. Maybe Hooded Hydra
is more to your liking?
September 30, 2014 9:57 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #23
Most of my permanents won't see the grave though GlistenerAgent. I removed Empty the Pits because of all the permanents I had now.
Lower cost threats certainly aren't the way to go APPLE01DOJ, permanents that have an immediate board effect andor have superior protection are the way to go. I have found that decks with a lot of low cost creatures do absolutely nothing against this deck.
spyroswiz says... #2
Reaper of the Wilds is better than Hornet Nest . In control match-ups, hornet is useless, but reaper can avoid spot removal. Against other decks, reaper blocks all day and can kill a big fattie,not to forget about the scry. Maybe play 2 reaper and one Hornet Nest .
September 29, 2014 3:54 p.m.