NV_1980 Keep in mind we can't add any more creatures, adding more creatures makes Proteus staff not work. But I like the idea behind your suggestions and it's given me a couple of ideas.

Maybe Copy Enchantment and Strionic Resonator to get some more of those sweet Paradox Haze extra upkeep triggers. Also Dual Casting to get an additional of any spell you like. If you want to be really mean, you can always put in Enchanted Evening with Serenity/Tranquil Grove. The deck's hilarious, good luck!

The mana in this deck is a mess. Nearly half of your lands are CIPT lands. Fetchlands would help this deck with mana fixing. You state that the first plan of action is ramping, but there's only 4 ramp spells in the deck and I don't even know if I'd consider KHE ramp. Even your artifact ramp is slow.

I tried goldfishing this deck 10 times and each time I stalled to a point where I was unable to cast something due to color restrictions or because I didn't have enough mana.

I found in my O-Kagachi deck that having all 10 signets along with all 5 talismans really helps with quick mana acceleration and the signets sorta fix mana a little bit. I would start by cutting maybe Basalt Monolith. Also, I entirely have to agree with Eyrie007: You need better mana. If you don't want to completely upgrade to Scalding Tarn/Volcanic Island $10000 manabase, then do what I did: the 5 ally-color fetches from KTK are all less than $15 I think- Polluted Delta/Flooded Strand/Bloodstained Mire/Wooded Foothills/Windswept Heath. You can even replace heath with Krosan Verge as it ramps you a little as well. Then for fetchable duals, buy the shocks you can afford and replace the rest with the BFZ and AKH duals like Canopy Vista and Sheltered Thicket. I would cut the tri lands as well as Mishra's Factory for them.

In addition, once C17 comes out, I would recommend replacing Tazri with Ramos, Dragon Engine. Since Tazri serves no purpose herself except for being Proteus Staff Fodder, then (although he does cost 1 more mana) Ramos is just easier to cast in case you don't have white mana. Also, in case the combo fails somehow, Ramos can always just ramp you into hardcasting one of the epic spells, which could technically win the game and be a backup wincon.

Eyrie007 In case you hadn't noticed, this deck is for fun and we would rather not spend hundreds of dollars on a mana-base for a deck we have no interest in making competitive.

When you say "artifact ramp is slow," I can't really understand why that should be a point of concern... Any casual EDH deck that uses reasonably priced artifact ramp isn't going to be up to speed with your dreamy-eyed Mana Crypt you seem to expect everyone to run. 2-mana artifact ramp is about as good as an inexpensive deck will get you.

Now when you say we only run 4 ramp spells, I'm wondering which 8 you have so blindly looked past. Even without counting KHE I can still spot 11 ramp spells.

We have play-tested this deck several times, MUCH more than 10 and have very rarely run into mana problems. There are as many mana problems with this deck as there would be in a regular casual EDH deck.

RazortoothMtg The only Fetch land you named under $15 anywhere is the Selesnya one.. so no thanks, we're trying to keep the mana base cheaper. The tri-lands facilitate mana-fixing while keeping the mana-base cheap, so no we will not be adding tons of expensive fetch/shock lands.

The man-lands in the deck serve a very important-purpose: a secondary target for Proteus Staff but we have expressly limited the number and type of man-lands included in order to keep the land mana-base reasonable.

Also thanks for the Ramos suggestion, it may be of some use.

toothlessthedragon Where do you get 12 ramp spells? When I think ramp, I think of Harrow, Explosive Veggies, Skyshroud Claim, Farseek, Cultivate, K. Reach, etc. These actually speed the deck up significantly. They also allow you to play more basic lands. You could also use the Amonkhet duals and those are rather affordable. I never said you need to spend $10,000 on a mana base, but when half your lands come into play tapped, that is awful.

Eyrie007 tell me... when you play EDH decks without Green in them how do you ramp? I shouldn't have to say this to anyone but those artifacts that produce mana are ALL ramp... I can't expect someone who's posted 4 limited decks to understand any of the basics of EDH.

So maybe I'll just give a quick EDH 101 course here... so there is absolutely NO way you can make up an excuse for not noticing Sol Ring as ramp. Like seriously? That is THE commander ramp spell (I dislike running it because if I have it in every deck like other people then that's just no fun.) on top of sol ring (even beginner Commander players recognize this type of ramp as a "mana-rock") there are also 5 talismans which are each less effective ramp but they can provide coloured mana at the cost of 1 life. Basalt monolith is among my favourite mana rocks because you can cast it on turn 3 (or earlier if you ramped on turn 1) and have 6 or 7 mana on turn 4.

In commander, having 40 as your starting life total is a huge help when colour-fixing in 5-colours. It allows you to play more versatile mana at the cost of giving up some early-game plays. But since you've got 40 life there aren't many early game plays besides ramping and colour-fixing that will benefit players in casual EDH.

If you've ever played commander before, you would know that aggro-decks are not very good at killing 3 other players from 40 life. So if you're going to point out the fact that we have too many lands that enter tapped, then why would you suggest amonkhet dual lands which also enter tapped? Just because we want to use an inexpensive mana-base, doesn't mean we want to go down 4 levels and use the terrible amonkhet duals. The pain lands we use as well as the cheaper man lands will suit this deck just fine.

Really I'm sure lots of people are surprised by you saying "when I think of ramp, I think of all green spells" because those are the words of somebody COMPLETELY unfamiliar with commander. If you're going to comment on a deck for a specific format, make sure you understand the format first.

I hate to say this, but I do not think you will pass my EDH 101 class.

toothlessthedragon I've played MTG for nearly 18 years. I'm not sure why you're coming off all condescending about my criticisms of your deck. But, if that's how you want to respond, then fine, I won't help you.

Dear Eyrie007,

Please excuse The Dragon's rather boisterous behaviour. He doesn't much care for those who post ignorantly on the internet. While his method of communication might be flawed, he does know of what he is talking and is an excellent judge of character.

First of all, ramp is "Cards like Llanowar Elves and Rampant Growth that increase the amount of mana you can generate more quickly than the usual one extra land per turn." This means that many, many cards that are not traditional green ramp spells. Springleaf Drum, Sol Ring, even a simple Manalith is ramp. It is pretty inexcusable to NOT count colorless cards as ramp, especially in a format where it is so important.

Second, if lifelands are playable in casual EDH (they are in most playgroups) then tri-lands are perfectly acceptable. I honestly have no idea why you would post(and continue to post) on an EDH deck without recognizing that this deck can do what it needs to, when it needs to. If that means playing taplands for two turns and taking damage from a painland on turn 3 to play, that's acceptable.

Lastly, I'm inclined to take your statement with a grain of salt. 18 years? You never took a break? You didn't know the meaning of ramp? I'm not saying you're being untrue, just that saying you've been playing for so long isn't helping your case. Also have you been of help? I must have missed that. I think we'll be well enough off without your wisdom and lack of ramp.

Goodday to you.

Add Polymorph, Mass Polymorph for more consistency

DarkHamlet, because those cards don't do anything useful in this deck, they are unfortunataly not good inclusions. Notice the text tells you to either exile or destroy the creature, and also shuffles your own library after. Proteus Staff therefore remains the single card useful in this situation.

Polymorph and Mass Polymorph counts as copies of Proteus Staff, just that.

Besides, Epic Experiment can't be casted with Hellcarver Demon 'cause X cost can't be paid when you read sentences like "without paying their mana costs".

Great idea anyways.

DarkHamlet if we cast Polymorph on our Hellcarver Demon then we will 1: destroy our combo piece and 2: shuffle our library and accomplish nothing. The difference between Proteus Staff and Polymorph/Mass Polymorph is the staff lets us put all other revealed cards on the bottom in ANY order, while Polymorph makes us shuffle all the revealed cards away. In this deck, Proteus Staff and Polymorph/Mass Polymorph are not at all the same.

We will never want to cast Epic Experiment if we have Hellcarver Demon because Hellcarver Demon is the main combo enabler while Epic Experiment is the backup in case hellcarver dies.

DarkHamlet Epic Experiment is meant to be hard-cast for X=10 after reorganizing the deck with proteus staff in case that wasn't clear.

Ah ok! Understood.

It hardly seems worth it if you can't use Hive Mind to share the epicness.

BTW, how would Wargate fare in this deck?

mmlgamer I think that both Hive Mind (as a way to make it more fun) and Wargate (for a catch-all tutor) are excellent considerations for the deck. The only problem with Hive Mind is that it needs to be in play before going off, which is much harder than pulling off the crazy already is. I'll talk it over with toothless but in the meantime thank you for your comment!

Am I missing something? If you cast one epic card, you won't be able to cast any of the other epic spells with either Epic Experiment or Hellcarver Demon. Or are you just looking to cast just one of the epic cards?

You cast all 5 at once, thus putting all of them on the stack at the same time in any order. You don't need the ability to cast in order to resolve a spell already on the stack.

SirFowler - mmlgamer is correct... Epic doesn't take effect until the spell resolves so our two ways of casting all 5 epics involve putting them all on the stack at the same time.

Insidious Dreams

You should run some ways to put the epic cards back in your library if you draw them, maybe something like Winds of Change

Chickens_are_awesome we have some: Brainstorm, Lat-Nam's Legacy, See Beyond, Temporal Cascade, Scroll Rack, Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The issue with Winds of Change is that we're very likely to just draw one of the epics again once we shuffle our hand away.

So help me understand, if you will, what's the advantage of using Hellcarver Demon over Epic Experiment? It adds a few extra steps (one more round with Staff and a combat step) and doesn't let you preserve your board state and hand as Epic Experiment does (two of those Epic spells can't feel great with an empty hand), plus Epic Experiment will allow four more instant/sorcery casts. I know you need to have at least 12 mana open for the Epic Experiment, but it feels like that could be done faster than the Demon's routine.

You guys are the experts, though. I'm interested in your thoughts.