[Community Discussion]: Modern Chat
Modern forum
Posted on April 25, 2015, 8:42 p.m. by Epochalyptik
This thread is dedicated entirely to Modern. Feel free to post your thoughts on the meta, ideas for your next decklist, and just chat generally about the format!
Of course, you can always start a new thread if you're interested in discussing one particular aspect of the format; this thread should be used for the quick thoughts and informal questions about the format.
This discussion will be ongoing; you are free to post here as long as you're on topic.
This is NOT a deck help thread. Please do not spam deck help requests.
APPLE01DOJ
...since when does mono green stompy feature card draw?
As i stated before, when you draw a lot of cards, Deathgorge Scavenger is superior due to the fact that you don't need to commit mana to it to generate additional value.
However for decks that play most of their card at instant speed anyway, or have a lack of cards late game (due to being an aggro deck as an example), the mana sink nature of Scavenging Ooze is not a drawback.
October 19, 2017 4:28 p.m.
To illustrate this, GBX decks that run 4 or more copies of Dark Confidant effects, would benefit a lot from not having to spend mana on the activation of Scavenging Ooze, instead getting the value for "free" from Deathgorge Scavenger.
October 19, 2017 4:29 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #4
I'm just saying, I can't think of a single deck that would play this? Please name one? I know you said Jund but as a long time B/G player I'm not convinced.
October 19, 2017 4:33 p.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #5
I can't think of a single BG/x deck that runs more than 4x Dark Confidant MB and only on occasion may you find a Phyrexian Arena in the side. The main reason BG/x wouldn't run this is mana cost. 1) pinging yourself for 3 more than you already do isn't ideal and 2) the 3 mana slot is taken by Liliana of the Veil and Liliana, the Last Hope.
October 19, 2017 4:43 p.m.
In my humble opinion Liliana, the Last Hope is a novelty item, and a win more card that will fade out with standard rotation from jund lists like, Huntmaster of the Fells
Flip, Olivia Voldaren, Courser of Kruphix did.
Ruin Raider - is a likely contender to be Dark Confidant 5 & 6. Since Dark Confidant is a removal magnet, and one of (if not THE) best card in the deck, playing 6 would be ideal.
Since we are discussing the potential of cards, i think its stupid to "name decks" that play it and have large meta share, for a card that just entered standard.
Not to mention that while its true "cards with large meta share are powerful", its contra positive is not. ("cards that don't have large meta share are weak" - which is false)Thus when discussing the potential a freshly printed card, i would try to look and think farther than the typical "its shit if its not in T1 lists".
October 19, 2017 4:56 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #7
Considering Bob isn't even played in a lot of BGx decks, I think Scooze is just blatantly better. Also having a creature for 2 mana is much more superior than 3 mana, and the stats are fairly similar.
October 19, 2017 6:07 p.m.
Now that is new to me!
This is exactly the first time i hear that Dark Confidant is a bad card.
Would you care to explain why?
If you intend to gain life with it i Wouldn't say Scavenging Ooze is superior. You need to pay on the ooze to gain a 1 life, then pay for each additional point.
Thus at turn 3 you can gain 3, which is 1 better than the dino, but you lost 2 mana already.
(and you can't gain any life with the ooze on turn 2)
The Deathgorge Scavenger gains only 2 life on t3, but it will provide 2 more each turn (as long as its on the field), for free.
October 19, 2017 6:24 p.m.
If you're a BG/x deck you often want to be playing a threat (Goyf, Scooze) and an interaction spell in the same turn. Deathgorge isn't cutting it.
October 19, 2017 7:40 p.m.
Scavenging Ooze is not a threat.
(compared to other beasts that inhabit modern, like Tarmogoyf, Death's Shadow, Primeval Titan, Reality Smasher... etc. those are game winning threats, not frikkin Goblin Guide that can get +1/+1 counters, if you pay , and have dead creatures in graves)
Yes you can play it and play removal on the same 3rd turn, but it will stay the same puny little 2/2.
And then what?
Paying its cost 2x to grow it to be a 4/4 is not so great when it will still be murdered by Fatal Push, and it will still have its ass handed to it by the Hollow One casted for the sky high cost of
Of course if you build a deck that ramps and puts a lot of creatures into the grave it can become big (and do so reliably and at reasonable speed).
But that's the same territory as building a deck for Skaab Ruinator, and ain't no spike got time for dat!
October 19, 2017 8:09 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #11
@Xica quote me when i said Bob was a bad card. I'll wait. I never uttered those words.
Also, since you obviously know Bob is a good card, then you understand that life totals arent overly relevant, since you're obviously willing to trade life for cards. That's basically all deathgorge does, since even with the +1/+1 it dies to any playable removal spell and gets blocked easy by a lot if creatures.
Scooze grows way bigger over time, is mana efficient, and is a better threat than deathgorge. In addition, deathgorge doesn't hit lands. Against a shadow deck where exiling lands can be relevant to hampering their tasigur or angler in hand, not being able to do that is losing percentage against them.
Finally, when you play scavenger on turn 5 or 6, it can only hit one card. Snooze can easily be a 4/4 or bigger on turn 5. I'm pretty sure deathgorge is nowhere close as scooze.
Also you say that scooze isn't a threat. Like a 3/2 for 3 is more threatening and efficient.
October 19, 2017 8:18 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants
"considering Bob isn't even played in a lot of BGx decks"
In most cases this tends is equivalent to the "its not played because its bad".
I agree, life totals are not important until you are at 1 life. Still if you have ways to gain life, you can abuse the draw power of bob for longer.
How is paying mana for lifegain effect that the other alternative provide freely, more mana efficient?
Scavenging Ooze
+ Hates better on the grave
+ Can grow bigger
- Requires a lot more mana investment
- Gains you a lot less life(Compared to Deathgorge Scavenger - hence one can't say its strictly worse)
October 19, 2017 8:56 p.m.
TheAlexGnan
Regardless of our sentiments towards each other, lets stick to facts, and don't put words in the other person's mouth.
I not even once said that Deathgorge Scavenger is better than Scavenging Ooze.
I said that they do different things and that as a way to gain life Deathgorge Scavenger is more efficient.
Having an effect for free is a lot more efficient, than paying for it (not to mention being limited by the presence of creatures in the grave is also inefficient - compared exiling non-creatures, which is much more reliable due to presence of fetch lands.)
If we want to be realistic while theoretically Scavenging Ooze can outgrow anything, its unlikely, it has worse chances for doing so than Tireless Tracker.
It needs creatures in the grave.
October 20, 2017 5 a.m.
So you are saying that there is no point to gaining life for BG(X) deck, that throw away their own life total left and right to pay the cost of a wide variety of spells?
Kitchen Finks is surely better against burn - it blocks twice (likely killing 2 creatures) and gains you 4 life.But it won't gain more than 4 life.
In my humble opinion having multiple Dark Confidants on the field is a nice thing to have.
And in such case having some way to gain life is mandatory - otherwise if the opponent manages to stall you with walls for a short time, your own creatures could kill you easily.
(Of course there is no such deck, and even thinking about it is heresy - as if anyone tries to build such a thing it will be unplayable, and the God of spikes will curse that heaton, so that his/her hands will rot off)
October 20, 2017 6:52 a.m.
I mean is Deathgorge Scavenger even effective due to the fact other than its ETB trigger it has to enter combat to be effective ? I personally find it would not have profitable attacks on most boards lending Scooze to be the more powerful because you don't have to tango with bigger creatures to interact with the grave (the desired effect of these cards for the most part)
October 20, 2017 10:21 a.m.
For a time i have been toying with a "madness" deck that abused 8x pseudo dark confidant effect - in the person of 4x Asylum Visitor & 4x Blood Scrivener.
And when there are multiples on the field, its just insane.
Of course the problem is you have to empty your hand every turn for them to be active.
But now that Mr. Ruin Raider is able to join Dark Confidant i don't think that its unlikely that a similar archetype could become a powerhouse in modern. (that of course doesn't guarantee anything, but the possibility is there imho)
The goal is to draw so much cards to not have to give a fuck if some of your plays are destroyed by blockers - however this way of play requires lifegain.
(And i think people are much more likely to focus removal on stuff like Tarmogoyf, than Deathgorge Scavenger)
October 20, 2017 10:36 a.m.
So in your opinion Dark Confidant is not good enough, that a slightly worse version of it would be still playable?
(Paying more, while getting a +1/+1 bigger body, and it draws you card in the same turn bob would provide its first draw, that is not such big of a downgrade in my humble opinion - oh and you can always choose not to attack if the life loss becomes a danger)
October 20, 2017 2:17 p.m.
Show us some decklists 5-0ing with Ruin Raider and Deathgorge Scavenger 5-0ing modern competitive leagues, ok? Show me a Top 8 at a major event with either of those cards... wait...
October 20, 2017 3:52 p.m.
TheAlexGnan
I have to concede that my theories are just that.
What basis do you have to proclaim that a card that has been legal since 22 days, will surely never be any good?
For me it seems that both of our opinions are that, opinions, pure conjecture.
(P.s.:I never intended to make the impression that the cards in question will be "meta" - as in they will be all over the top tier deck - but i think they will be valuable tools for some strategies)
October 21, 2017 7:20 a.m.
Serra_Sentinel says... #20
I know I'm a little late to the party here, but, Scooze and Scavenger are doing different things. Both of them empty the graveyard, sure, but Scooze does that more efficiently. The Scavenger is a 3/2 body for 3 that can be a 4/3 or gain you two life a turn. They are different cards. That being said, in my opinion Scooze is a better card than Scavenger in a deck that can produce multiple green mana in a turn.
Also, to whomever tried to say that Scooze is not a threat: it is. It can grow to a huge body and be the biggest thing on the board. I've seen 6/6 and 7/7 Oozes win games by beat down.
October 24, 2017 4:27 p.m.
Serra_Sentinel
I meant that Scavenging Ooze is not a threat in the sense most modern big creatures are.
As they tend to be big immediately (or at least very soon), and without "if"s like multiple creatures in graveyards, and the investment of 6 green mana, which takes up multiple turns even in late game.
(While this scooze dies to most removal in the format)
October 25, 2017 7:30 a.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #22
Is deathgorge scavenger bad? Not necessarily. Can it see play in modern? Sure. Will it put in some work? Maybe. Are you making a mistake by playing it over Scooze? 99.9% of the time yes.
October 25, 2017 3 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #23
Scavenging Ooze is one of the best utility creatures in the format. Scavenger is...not that.
Everyone here knows I'm pretty big on innovation in the format and thinking outside of the box. But I think you're failing to understand the role Scooze plays in the midrange decks it's being played in. These decks are all about value, and incremental gains that eventually snowball their way to victory.
Scooze is exceptionally good in this kind of strategy.
Again, I'm all for innovation. But if you're not first understanding why the conventional wisdom is what it is, you're missing the forest through the trees.
My two cents.
October 25, 2017 3:55 p.m.
Scavenger just costs too much for Modern IMO. If it were a 2/2 for with identical abilities, it'd be interesting.
October 25, 2017 5:39 p.m.
random thought, haven't seen the card in a while, any reason burn decks aren't sideboarding Deflecting Palm ? Maybe they are and I'm not seeing it, but it seems great vs. DS
October 25, 2017 6:08 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #26
DS plays too many Stubborn Denial for it to be reliable. That said, it is a 'must answer' card, which makes it better than a normal burn spell for the burn deck.
October 25, 2017 6:52 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #27
Huh. I mean it seems pretty decent against Eldrazi Tron or Valakut, where everything does 3+ damage
October 25, 2017 7:02 p.m.
Deflecting Palm is not that great for redirecting the damage from Scapeshift + Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, as the land deal 3 damage a lot of times in a quick succession, and palm can only redirect one of those (it similar to why its not much use against Grapeshot)
Its a fun card, and comes in and out of sideboard, but at the moment there is a visible lack of decks it would be great against, like infect, or grishoalbrand...
October 25, 2017 8:03 p.m.
The vast majority of Burn decks have Palm in them, and it is indeed great against Shadow, because it's a "must answer" spell. It does suck against Valakut (only prevents one trigger), but that often doesn't matter because Burn is good against that deck to begin with. Another matchup where it's very good is Affinity (nice Cranial Plating, bro).
October 25, 2017 9:48 p.m. Edited.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #30
Exactly. My experience with the card so far has been a real blast.
It was especially powerful against infect back in the days (With GP and MG + fetches). It's also good against Emrakuls, Bogles (!!!), Affinity, Wurmcoil Engine and Ad Nauseam's Lightning Storm.
It's been in my Burn SB for years now as a 2/3 of and I've never been disappointed with it. It's also surprising lots of opponents and me likey ;)
October 26, 2017 3:59 a.m.
Lets be real!
Deflecting Palm is not gonna do much against Wurmcoil Engine, as it can only act as a fog (negating the artifact creature's damage, and the resulting lifegain), or as a removal spell. Path to Exile is far better against it.
And its not much better against boogles, which tends to run ~8x auras that have the lifelink keyword, and a similarly high number of "totem armors", which prevent the death of the creatures.
October 26, 2017 5:36 a.m.
WizardOfTheNorthernCoast says... #32
Xica you're the most negative person on this forum seriously :) I'm telling you, after playing the card a sh*tload of time, it has real power. I know it for a fact from my experience, not because 'I think that' whatever.
Palm on Wurmcoil is huge. If you're a Burn player and get hit by this big boy, it's game over. Just preventing the 6 lifepoints and dealing 6 is crazy. It's a 12 HP difference for 2 mana FFS! It's good vs a T3 Engine by Tron (we have a good matchup to start with but still) and it's good vs a T12 Engine by UWx Control.
Concerning your 'point' about Bogles, I just plain don't get it. Lifelink is irrelevant because Palm prevents the damage (so 0 life gained) and Totem armor is totally irrelevant as well because you're hitting your opponent, not the creature. So... WTF? :)
So kameenook I think it's just your environment and meta not sideboarding Palm because myself and some mates still do ;)
October 26, 2017 5:55 a.m.
Well i forgot that preventing damage prevents the lifegain, now that i consider that the card is even better.
I didn't intend to say that its bad.
Still its not a mainboard card (and probably there is a reason behind that), besides i have hard time seeing this, as some kind of matchup warping force against deck with counterspells (if the opponent expects it).
October 26, 2017 6:38 a.m.
No one here is saying it is a mainboard card... but it is really friggin good nonetheless.
October 26, 2017 6:49 a.m.
APPLE01DOJ says... #35
I've lost to the surprise Deflecting Palm more than once. I'm glad it's not so common.
October 26, 2017 10:11 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #36
Its one of those cards thats REALLY good when its good and its just do-nothing when its bad. Your typical modern sideboard card.
Pretty funny when it comes to Deaths shadow running around. They go down to 4 to make a 9/9 and once they do you Palm their Shadow for GG
October 26, 2017 10:35 a.m.
Is Condemn better than it was before due to the prevalence of Death's Shadow ? It allows you to most ideal situation condemn a delve creature and kill their Death's Shadow in the process? Also possible to just condemn DS and make future DS's worse.
November 6, 2017 9:32 a.m.
3-4 months ago, it was great. Nowadays the meta is wide open, Shadow has dipped in metagame share, and most of the decks in white have favorable Shadow matchups anyway. I wouldn't bother.
November 6, 2017 9:43 a.m.
GeminiSpartanX says... #39
I've been goldfishing some 5-color Humans, and the deck seems legit. It matches poorly against Blood Moon, but otherwise looks super aggressive. Does anyone have real experience with the deck so that I can pick their brains?
November 6, 2017 9:51 a.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #41
The deck is for real. Have encountered it quite a bit in Comp Modern Leagues on MTGO and it's definitely solid.
November 6, 2017 5:37 p.m.
Thoughts on potential gifts storm ban? I personally think the decknis fine and not at all broken, but then again I play it. Lot of my friends (especially those on dredge) think the deck needs to die and deserves a ban. Personally think they just want one of their worst matchups gone, but idk. Seems to me like there is plenty of sb hate in modern that absolutely decimated storm. But you guys play the format more than me, thoughts?
November 7, 2017 3:21 p.m.
elpokitolama says... #43
People keep asking for unecessary bans... Look at GDS and Eldrazi Tron for exemple. Don't worry, WotC has stated that they find the current meta healthy, and that they are currently looking at potential unbans which is reaaaally cool. c:
November 7, 2017 6:06 p.m.
Think GDS is grixis deaths shadow APPLE01DOJ
And yea, I just dont think people are respecting storm enough to properly sideboard for it. And then are complaining when it gets multiple slots in a top32.
November 7, 2017 10 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #46
I mean, I'm a little salty about that time that one storm player got a turn 2 kill against me through Nihil Spellbomb... however storm doesn't need a ban. It's (usually) disruptable and plenty of answers to the deck exist.
November 7, 2017 10:09 p.m.
tlhunter07 says... #47
TBH I know that with all the Jeskai decks I run, once you learn the matchup well, it's easy. The hard part is learning it, and not many people take the time to do that.
November 8, 2017 7:29 a.m. Edited.
Just started playing UR gifts storm on magic online, and I have to say, I think with the wide variety of sideboard options available against it it doesn't need any sort of ban. Even run into the occasional deck maindecking some of these hate, and it is certainly very hard to win through some of these hate cards. Yes storm has answers to some of these hate cards in the sideboard, but that dilutes the gameplan anyways and those decks are pressuring you to go off anyways meaning you need the right combination of cards to go off and anti-hate cards
My personal favorite for the aforementioned Surgical Extraction is the boarding in Dispel, but then you have to draw it and against some decks hope it isn't ripped from your hand, while also having to assemble your combo and hope you're not dying to other things.
November 8, 2017 9:18 a.m.
...why do people not play Extirpate over Surgical Extraction?
Deck against which you would want to use these cards tend to have some kind of countermeasure, be it Dispel, casting the targeted card via Snapcaster Mage, or simply drawing/dredging it back to hand via stuff like Street Wraith.
Hence for me at least, it seems that a reliable 1 mana spell, is better than a easily disrupted "free" spell.
November 9, 2017 11:21 a.m.
Well I could be wrong, but I'd imagine for a few reasons. Surgical Extraction is colorless in effect, so can go in every deck at the cost of two life, and the other main reason it's effective is that you can still be proactive (something you need to be doing against the kind of decks you want surgical for) allowing you to use your mana while also having interaction up, that sounds huge to me. It definitely will still get people too, less likely to play around cards when your opponent is tapped out, and the effect of forcing them to have dispel and potentially delay there game winning plays is effective if you're playing a deck that can capitalize off being proactive (which you should be doing anyways)
APPLE01DOJ says... #1
I can't think of a single deck that would run Deathgorge Scavenger over Scavenging Ooze. I think even Mono Green Stompy would prefer ScOoze over the Dino because of Avatar of the Resolute.
October 19, 2017 3:17 p.m.