How is Camaraderie a Bend?
General forum
Posted on Aug. 8, 2022, 9:37 p.m. by DemonDragonJ
In this post, Mark Rosewater said that Camaraderie is a bend, but I fail to see how that is the case, since all of its abilities are perfectly within white and green's sections of the color pie.
What does everyone else say about this? Do you believe that Camaraderie is a bend?
wallisface says... #3
I’d also think the “bend” part of this is the mass card draw. It’s definitely not in whites colour pie, which makes this card feel pretty dubious at being white… it would make more sense as a mono-green card imo.
August 8, 2022 10:50 p.m.
plakjekaas says... #4
It's Shamanic Revelation with Charge stapled on top of it. I don't really see how that's not fit for a Selesnya gold card.
August 8, 2022 11:30 p.m.
Shamanic Revelation does a pretty good impression in mono-. Pledge of Unity has everything but the card draw. I think it's fine as .
I'm not totally sure how the color allocation works officially, though. As a little mind trick, it's possible to make grant hexproof to players.
A 3/3 creature with riot, trample, and hexproof is printable in mono-. Hexproof for players has not been printed in mono- or mono-, and Gruul Spellbreaker has to justify a pip. So either the Spellbreaker could have been printed as mono-, or can grant hexproof to players.
And I'm still waiting for a vigilant flyer...
August 8, 2022 11:31 p.m.
wallisface says... #6
legendofa for Gruul Spellbreaker the hexproof I think is the green-pip, not red. Green is very liberal with hexproof, and we’ve seen it attributed to players in cards like Veil of Summer. The red-side of that card is defo, imo, the Riot ability (yea you’ve shown green can get this, but its faar more common in red).
August 8, 2022 11:47 p.m.
wallisface There are five mono- cards with riot, and three mono-. Sure, that's 62.5% red, but it's also a sample size of only eight. I think that's too small to say it's definitely more common in .
And I get the Veil of Summer comparison, so I take back the no player hexproof in . But for me, the riot on isn't an especially strong justification.
August 9, 2022 12:04 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #8
I was going to say that Gruul Spellbreaker was showcasing a guild mechanic and therefor would obviously have both guild colors in its identity, but then I looked at the rest of Guilds of Ravnica, and that's apparently not the case at all. If it would be, Legion Warboss would be , Venerated Loxodon would be , Blood Operative would be and Quasiduplicate would be .
Although in the case of Gruul Spellbreaker I think flavor tops color pie. Nothing screams "get out you pansy wizard dudes and let us smash" like hexproof on the player. At least I believe that more than being needed for hexproof on a player.
August 9, 2022 12:14 a.m.
plakjekaas (and wallisface) I actually do agree that G.Spellbreaker includes red for flavor; I don't seriously think the red's for the player hexproof. That's mostly a parlor trick and conversation piece.
However, flavor is a very flexible and broad justification. Pretty much any effect can be flavored into any color. That's how ended up with land punishing, direct damage, and ramp cards like Psychic Venom, Prodigal Pyromancer, and High Tide in the early days, and got stax-y creature control like Smoke. Flavor taking priority over mechanics is what causes bends and breaks.
August 9, 2022 1:38 a.m.
wallisface says... #11
legendofa Those do feel like unfair examples on Wizards part - all those cards were printed in the very early days of magics creation, well before the colour pie was properly established and adhered to. There haven't realistically been anything printed even close to those colour-breaks since before Modern.
I would also think that flavor being a reason for a card doing a thing is often something the playerbase does far more often than Wotc - they themselves are very careful not to let Flavor excuse a cards existence (Mark on Blogatog talks about this frequently).
August 9, 2022 2:15 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #12
Urabrask the Hidden tapping down opposing creatures like Authority of the Consuls or Blind Obedience is a post-modern-printed white effect on a card with only red pips in the cost. We all know about Feed the Swarm. I think it's a bold statement to say they haven't broken the color pie in years. I personally think Old Gnawbone is horrible as a green card, and only has merit in flavor. They just have gotten better at breaking it without looking broken.
August 9, 2022 3:17 a.m.
wallisface says... #13
plakjekaas yeah i’m not sure how they ever justified printing Urabrask the Hidden, that thing is a massive break.
Feed the Swarm is in-pie for black now, as they’ve added enchantment destruction to the list of things that colour is able to do (i guess expect to see more of this effect going forwards).
I agree that Old Gnawbone feels really out of place, and not necessarily something green shouldn’t be able to do, but definitely something no respectable green player wants to be doing for that much mana-investment.
August 9, 2022 6:15 a.m. Edited.
TheOfficialCreator says... #14
I think Urabrask the Hidden was a bit of a stumble that also occurred with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger.
Namely, Wizards designed the first ability, then went "what's the opposite?" and then put it on the card regardless of if that ability was in the color pie.
Plus, it's my personal opinion that the more expensive a spell is, the more it can diverge from the color pie. To an extent, obviously.
August 9, 2022 8:04 a.m.
Mark Rosewater also considers Smothering Tithe a bad break, and I agree with him on this one.
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/667294450431705088/it-can-with-the-following-restriction-white (outside links not enabled, apologies)
Yeah, the blue examples I used earlier are old, but they very clearly demonstrate what happens when flavor takes precedence. And while there might not have been any breaks quite that bad for a long time, breaks still happen with some regularity.
So while they might try to avoid letting flavor dictate mechanics, it still happens.
vigilant fliers ever made: zero (maybe Golgari Death Swarm, but that's a meme card referring to this incident). vigilant fliers (with no other abilities) before Grand Designer Search 3: Tempest Drake. vigilant fliers (with no other abilities) since GDS3: Warrant / Warden. I'm not trying to hijack the thread with this note, just demonstrate how the color pie and it's intended use is frequently up for interpretation, and even the official color pie manager doesn't always seems to get it right.
August 9, 2022 12:45 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #16
My understanding is that each color is supposed to have specific strengths and weaknesses, and if a card showcases their weaknesses, it's a bend. And if it does something outright wrong for those color(s), it's a break.
But with EDH, you can't NOT have white draw cards.
You can't NOT have blue get some decent creatures without drawbacks.
You can't NOT have enchantments impossible to remove outside of green.
So I think the ways of "bends" and "breaks" is coming to an end.
August 10, 2022 1:02 a.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #17
I agree with Timmy on the idea that due to EDH's widespread play that breaks and bends are becoming more common to the point of being almost removed from the game.
However, it's worth noting that it's not entirely over. The colors are still incredibly well differentiated. The color pie is still important, but it's gradually become more of a set of guidelines for what to include on a card than rules for what to exclude.
At least that's my take on it from what I've seen of modern MTG.
August 10, 2022 5:13 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #18
TypicalTimmy, TheOfficialCreator, I enjoy EDH very much, but I do not want one format to warp the entire game, as that would not be fair to every other format. For example, I can accept Enchanter's Bane, as that is a way for red decks to punish enchantments without actually destroying them, but not Feed the Swarm, as I feel that that simply is too different from what black has done, before. I think that Mire in Misery and Extract the Truth are acceptable, however, because they allow a player to choose which enchantment that they lose.
August 10, 2022 8:12 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #19
A good example of a rules bend is Questing Beast.
Green normally doesn't have vigilance, or haste.
Green normally doesn't have restrictions on what can block it.
Green also normally doesn't make combat damage unable to be prevented. What it normally does is either Fog and stop it all, or make things indestructible until end of turn. If you're looking at damage being unable to be prevented, that's really more of a red thing.
And green certainly doesn't do "extra damage".
Questing Beast should have been Naya, or Gruul at the least. But certainly not mono-green.
August 10, 2022 8:32 p.m.
DemonDragonJ says... #20
TypicalTimmy, I agree with all of your points, so how has WotC justified the existence of that creature?
August 10, 2022 8:52 p.m.
TypicalTimmy says... #21
The needed a filler for the mythic cycle I'm assuming XD
Think that Boar God from War of the Spark.
August 10, 2022 9:09 p.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #22
Oh God Ilharg >:(
Ilharg is literally my least favorite card from that set lol
I don't know that it's a rules bend but it's definitely annoying
August 10, 2022 9:31 p.m.
TypicalTimmy has gotten or granted vigilance as far back as 1994 and 1999, with Rabid Wombat and Stamina. It's been getting vigilance regularly since about 2015. haste is a little less common, but still visible also since 2015. Both those abilities are secondary in green, so they'll show up once in a while.
"Extended damage" (not sure what else to call it) has a tiny little precedent in Greatbow Doyen, and Kosei, Penitent Warlord and Hydra Omnivore also exist now, so this might be tertiary in in the future.
Of course, Questing Beast is still a mess, and the "can't be prevented" clause is still out of nowhere. It absolutely would have been fairer and more sensical as Naya or Gruul.
My best guess is that Throne of Eldraine wanted to be a mono-color set, with abilities like Adamant, and like you said, they needed a mythic slot filler.
August 10, 2022 9:57 p.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #24
legendofa you hit the nail on the head with that last paragraph. That's also why the Elite Headhunter hybrid cycle exists.
August 10, 2022 10:09 p.m.
Going back to the EDH point, should we expect a higher proportion of bends and breaks in the Commander sets, especially since they're being released at the same rate as the Standard sets? What about supplemental sets in general? (Anything with Horizons in the name, random stuff like Battlebond or Conspiracy, etc. I'm not including Secret Lairs or Universes Beyond in this.)
August 11, 2022 1:12 a.m.
TheOfficialCreator says... #26
I do think Commander sets will and should have a larger number of breaks.
Same with the Horizons sets, honestly, but most of Horizons is more about pushing old abilities in new ways or adding incredibly powerful new cards to the format. This lends itself well to color pie bends, but if Horizons sets started coming out more often I would not want a higher proportion of color pie bends in them. Honestly, I prefer cards like Mystic Redaction in Modern Horizons sets over cards like Deepwood Denizen.
It has to be said however that the Horizons sets have fewer color pie breaks because it caters to a format built more strictly on the color pie. If we had a Vintage Horizons, it would have more color pie breaks because that's what Vintage has, similar to how Commander sets print reverse-Balance-like card advantage in white and enchantment removal in black (I personally dislike the latter, but I believe there does need to be a tertiary color for enchantment removal and black is the least bad choice). Modern doesn't have that precedent to live up to, so its special sets also don't print a large number of those cards.
August 11, 2022 7:50 a.m.
plakjekaas legendofa I think Shamanic Revelation is also a bend for the same reasons.
September 4, 2022 1:38 a.m.
Skagra42 Which part of Shamanic Revelation do you think is the bend?
As I see it, Collective Unconscious and Regal Force show that can draw cards based on number of creatures, although it's more typically based on power, like Greater Good or Momentous Fall. Both Unconscious and R.Force might also be bends, but I don't think they are.
Momentous Fall bring us to the life gain side. ability to gain big chunks of life has quite a bit of precedent, with cards like Blossoming Wreath, Nourish, and Wandering Stream. Gaining life based on power has become more prevalent recently, but has been around since at least 2006, with Gristleback, and Feed the Pack was printed just before Shamanic Revelation.
Furthermore, S.Revelation has been reprinted in eight different products, and is virtually a staple for precon Commander decks. I don't think a bend card would receive that much exposure, but that's entirely my speculation.
So my interpretation is that while the individual parts may not come together often, every part of Shamanic Revelation is acceptably , with established and demonstrative precedent. is probably the second or third best color for both drawing and life gain, but it's reasonable for it to do both.
September 4, 2022 2:10 a.m.
legendofa I think the card draw portion is a bend. As mentioned in the Tumblr post linked at the beginning of this thread, Camaraderie has become less in-pie over time. The color pie changes over time, so a color getting an effect a few times doesn't mean it must be one of that color's effects.
September 4, 2022 2:17 a.m.
wallisface A card requiring white mana does not prevent it from getting abilities. The purpose of the color pie is to change what people can do with assortments of mana, and a player with plus four more mana could cast either Camaraderie or a mono-green version with the white pip replaced by an additional generic mana, so there would be no reason for the white pip to prevent the card from having certain abilities.
September 4, 2022 2:29 a.m.
I agree that the color pie can change, I'm just not sure that green card draw is a point where it's shrinking. There are currently four mono-green cards in Standard that can draw cards either repeatedly or in bulk, and at least thirty in Pioneer. Green card draw doesn't show up multiple times per set like blue card draw does, but there's pretty reliably 1-2 green mass card draw effects per premier set, and I didn't look especially closely at the Commander supplements.
If anything, I think green card draw is becoming more common, and green's section of the color pie is expanding in that direction. As for Camaraderie, is best at life gain, and small but wide pumps (+1/+1 to all creatures until end of turn) are squarely in its wheelhouse. With green serving to reinforce the life gain and draw cards, I readily accept Camaraderie as .
September 4, 2022 2:37 a.m.
legendofa I remember seeing somebody from WotC say they've been shrinking green's card draw, although I'm not sure where.
September 4, 2022 2:39 a.m.
legendofa https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/691856847892774912/if-green-is-less-of-a-go-wide-colour-now-where mentions moving away from this sort of thing. Also, https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/691885245624188928/are-effects-like-beast-whisperer-andor-soul-of mentions another way in which green's card draw has been shrinking.
September 4, 2022 2:51 a.m.
Skagra42 Thanks for the sources. Those do demonstrate that Mark is working to remove green's card draw based on number of creatures. If that's the case, then yes, Camaraderie and cards like Shamanic Revelation are bending more.
It would be interesting to know when that decision was made. The two posts you linked, and the link in DemonDragonJ's original post, came from last month. Camaraderie was first printed in 2018. So some time in the last few years, the decision was made to have green card draw, and green effects in general, focus on size, rather than number. If that decision was made shortly after Camaraderie was printed, and set design and production takes several years, then we're just starting to see the effects now.
September 4, 2022 3:05 a.m.
wallisface says... #35
Skagra42 hard disagree. A good example of seeing this in action is with WB and WU. There is a good amount of White-Black spells that can remove enchantments or artifacts (Fracture being a good example of this), however White-Blue spells don't really get any access to this. While the effect of artifact/enchantment destruction is squarely in Whites colour pie, it's so anti what Blue is able to do, that they don't want to allow these kind of effects in that colour pairing.
In any case, according to Rosewater, Camaraderie is a bend, so there has to be reasons for that. Saying "nope the card is fine" seems pretty dismissive and not helpful towards working out why its a bend.
September 4, 2022 5:37 a.m.
wallisface "it's so anti what Blue is able to do, that they don't want to allow these kind of effects in that colour pairing."
Those effects are already in that color pairing because of mono-white spells that have them.
September 4, 2022 7:47 p.m.
wallisface says... #37
Skagra42 the important distinction I was illustrating is that it’s in White (and White-Black), but not White-Blue. Some colours are so anti-certain mechanics that they don’t get access to them just by being paired with a colour that can
September 4, 2022 8:01 p.m.
wallisface I'm not saying that blue has access to artifact and enchantment destruction. I'm saying that it doesn't need to in order for a UW gold card to do it. It should be noted that black doesn't get artifact destruction, either.
September 4, 2022 8:08 p.m.
wallisface says... #39
Skagra42 yes and I’m saying that even though White has access to artifact/enchantment destruction, that doesn’t mean that every White-X pairing has access to this also (in this case, WU doesn’t).
September 4, 2022 8:39 p.m.
wallisface those pairings do have access to it, though, because they can run cards like Disenchant. Therefore, a rule preventing UW gold cards from having the effect would be pointless.
September 4, 2022 10:51 p.m.
wallisface says... #41
Skagra42 I think you’ve missed the entire point of the conversation. WotC wouldn’t print a UW version of Disenchant because that would be a bend/break for that colour-pairing. In much the same way that Mark Rosewater has deemed Camaraderie to be a bend in its colour pairing.
The fact that one half of a colour pair has access to be able to do something doesn’t mean the paired-colour can do that thing. Your descriptor of it being “pointless” is also invalid - WotC try very hard to make each colours identity feel coherent, and so have to be very careful with how they implement multicoloured cards.
Metroid_Hybrid says... #2
My best guess is that it (potentially) draws a lot of cards all at once, which is usually more of a and/or kind of thing..
But then again, is decent enough at drawing cards too... and it is very much in-flavor for ..
Who knows where MaRo was coming from..
August 8, 2022 10:41 p.m.