Do you think these cards should be unbanned in EDH?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 11, 2013, 11:52 a.m. by truble
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - It still costs 15
Gifts Ungiven - Intuition is legal. Yes it can get just Unburial Rites Iona, Shield of Emeria but it is counterable and there are better cards in the game
Primeval Titan - alot of people like it is not a good enough reason to ban it. See Sol Ring
Griselbrand - I dont think he should be a general but I dont think he is overpowered as a creature.
Griselbrand in a normal game of magic where players have 20 life isn't so bad. In EDH having 40 life to draw 35 cards is a little insane.
July 11, 2013 12:10 p.m.
Emrakul isn't banned because of his mana cost. It's too easy to get 15 colorless mana by turn 3-4 and lock everybody out of the game. I've seen a turn 3 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth (his general), and I'm sure he could have done Emrakul the same way.
I assume Gifts Ungiven is banned because it makes getting combo pieces insanely easy due to the number of redundant effects throughout Magic. Think of the power difference between tutoring for 1 card versus 2 cards, especially with such low mana costs.
Primeval Titan allows you to tutor for any two lands when it ETBs AND when it attacks. Utility lands are extremely powerful in EDH.
Griselbrand allows you to draw 1/3 of your deck if you have 40 life. It would be easy to get to 4BBBB within the first few turns of a game to hard cast him, and even easier to get him into your graveyard to resurrect him. With the right preparation, he becomes an Enter the Infinite for 4BBBB.
July 11, 2013 12:17 p.m.
Too many ways to cheat out Emrakul, the Aeons Torn early game. No.
Gifts Ungiven ... best tutor there is. Read this on a person trying to unban it (gifts unbanning forum)[http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15521], which basically states, it is never played fairly and just a combo enabler that made the game unfun (which is the same for all the cards on your list).
Prime time, I'm ok with unbanning him. We have locally already and he isn't a real threat. He can be broken and with the new legends ruling, I cast prime time, get Dark Depths then Thespian's Stage , ohhh I got a 20/20 flying indestructible. When this happens, it might be time to ban him again as this will dominate locally most likely.
Griselbrand .. no. The 7 cards for 7 life on a 7/7 lifelinker in commander is too overwhelming. Again, sneaking him out is simple and easy.
let me give you a cheap example of this for a turn 2 emrakul or griselbrand.
Turn one, play swamp to Sol Ring
to Rakdos Signet
, turn 2 mountain.
turn one, use swamp to cast Dark Ritual
, 1b to activate signet, 1r and1b and 2 colorless (from Sol Ring
) to play Sneak Attack
, get 1r from mountain, play emrakul, smack player around resetting them, sac emrakul, shuffle, tutor for him, ... table scoops.
Ok, it's a lot of cards, but it's ugly, there are easier other ways to get it out also.
Griselband, turn 1, no land, discard him, turn two, swamp, to dark ritual to Animate Dead
, to and boom, overwhelming card advantage has begun.
tutors for these cards to assemble it is readily available in most decks also.
These are simple scenarios and take a specific combination to get out, but these are not the only combinations, just the ones I could come up off the top of my head.
Truth be told, I feel most of the bans are made because players can not play the cards intentionally sub-optimally, but use them to their most broken states 99% of the time. And it is the players fault for them to exist on the ban list.
Commander is supposed to be a more fun, laid back experience that just never materializes, even with hug and chaos decks trying to mess up everything and make it fun. Because of the competitiveness in players and the inability of said players to play not to win.
Because of this, I would say, No to all your choices.
And I would like to see Deadeye Navigator added to the ban list because of the number of combo's it enables. It really is broken in commander.
July 11, 2013 12:25 p.m.
And on gufymike's note, Are there any cards that you wouldn't mind seeing banned in commander?
I can think of two, Deadeye Navigator , because of the RIDICULOUS amount of combos he enables, and Sylvan Primordial because this guy just ruins games for me. I tend to play 4 player ffa, and I regularly see this guy turn 4, and sometimes soulbonded to the previously mentioned Deadeye Navigator . He destoys permanents AND ramps and the same time, and all that's required is the ETB.
July 11, 2013 1:22 p.m.
I will consent on Griselband and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn I just wanted to see what everyone thought.
But I dont think that Prime time should be banned.
He is a really good 6 drop that ramps. But he doesnt just make you win. This is the first I have heard of the Dark Depths then Thespian's Stage thing Prob because of the new legend rule. But he wasnt banned when there was going to be a new legend rule.
"One of the concerns that we've had recently is the overrepresentation of heavy ramp strategies to the point where it makes up a large proportion of the aggregate decks out there. While we think ramp should be goodthis is battlecruiser Magic after allit's probably a little too prevalent and needs reining in a bit. With that in mind we're banning the most egregious offender Primeval Titan.
This decision won't be universally popular. Primeval Titan is dripping with awesomeness and we ourselves are big fans of the card. But its ubiquity and effect on games couldn't be ignored and sad though we are to see it go we think it will make for a more interesting and diverse format." -Sheldon
You cannot ban things because people play it a lot. You can ban things because they are too good and they make up the top 8s every time. (Caw Blade is an example) But you cannot ban things like mono red that might make up 75% of the format on MODO but dont win much.
Nothing was said about Ramp decks winning too much (the words "effect on the game" were used with no explanation). They just think there are too many and they decided they didnt like that. Basically that decision says hey, your deck is not that good or anything. but some other people play it too so I am going to make it worse.
With all this said. I dont think it was a card that was even in over 50% of decks. Yes, if you are in green you have to play it, but all the other colors dont and they still win enough for their pilots to want to play them.
I think that this Willy Nilly banning based on the meta at the shop Sheldon plays in is unnerving. What happens if tomorrow he bans my general and I have to disassemble my deck and sell it. All the work I put in. All the signed and sentimental cards I cant play with.
That is my opinion, what do you all think?
July 11, 2013 1:27 p.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #8
@ gufymike totally agree for Deadeye Navigator and the rest of your post. But i would like to see the comitee limit the number of time infinite combo work to 2 or 3. Combo is an interresting way of playing but it seems like the only way to go competitive in EDH involve a way to get infinite mana, deal infinite damage or something alike... From my experience, limiting the combo to even 5 times let you play a combo and reward you for playing it, while not breaking the game into an instant win.
July 11, 2013 1:29 p.m.
Sylvan Primordial by himself isn't too bad, it's just one permanent, per opponent and ways to deal with him if need be. It's when players degenerate him that it gets ugly (see mtgcommander.net forums, this is a topic discussed at length actually).
I agree if the banning is based on personal experience in a local meta by sheldon, that's just abuse of his position. But everyone in my meta says prime time is broken, but we unbanned him and plenty of decks started using him right away, to nothing special. Though I do walk with and carry Armagedon in my commander deck,
July 11, 2013 1:39 p.m.
Smith_and_Tonic says... #10
truble I think you are missing a big part of that quote. Yes the card is well liked. It was played heavily in standard and was played a lot in EDH as well. The big part of that quote is it's effect on games. When PrimeTime would hit the board, the game became completely warped into who could steal it and abuse it the most. Yes the card was very popular but when a single card can warp a game it should be banned. The banning is never "Willy Nilly" either. A lot of thought and testing is put into whether to ban or unban cards in the format.
July 11, 2013 1:41 p.m.
Bobgalarneau I'm not a big fan of limiting # of times to 'infinite' combo in rules, but limit the scope. Grand melee is not too bad, where you can only attack the person to your left, defend from the right and combos and effects (i.e. extort) only effect 2 people either left or right. Players eliminated by combos do not leave the game till the end of turn, so people past them get a chance to play and are not affected by the combo.
July 11, 2013 1:43 p.m.
I think there are a lot of things that people fight over when they come into play Consecrated Sphinx , Blightsteel Colossus , Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre , etc. but the thing about prime time is if you take it, it benefits you, but you dont just win. Prime Time gains you card advantage during the attack step once per turn or if you flicker it.
Besides why do we care if people spend their turns trying to gain control of prime time. Not everyone thinks that is unfun. Eventually it dies. some people are up lands and we move on.
Isnt Diluvian Primordial a card that is more desirable to steel because it gains more card advantage? For just one mana more
anyway. half my play group ran prime time and no one ever thought he needed banned. now they all had to take him out of their decks.
The reason it makes me nervous is that he had been legal for a long time. and then one day he is banned and everyone is shocked. What happens if I invested in a Mana Crypt , Imperial Seal , whatever, and then it is suddenly banned. What about the guy who had a foil prime time and it dropped in value really heavily because of a banning that I think has shaky footing. Doesnt that make him want to stop investing in high end foils.
I just think that there was no concrete research on meta trends done. I dont know how one would go about doing those studies. but I think someone decided they were tired of fighting over who gets prime time and it was banned.
I hope whoever made that decision doesnt suddenly get tired of my general.
July 11, 2013 2:06 p.m.
smash10101 says... #13
i don't get why all of you are complaining about the banning of prime time. When he was legal, he warped the format to where you either had to play him, or you had to play ways to steal him. If any one card can warp a format like that, it deserves banning. Especially in a format with such a large card pool. Yes, local unbannings have shown that some things are fine, but local unbannings are usually with the mindset that you won't abuse the cards or they will get rebanned. As someone said already, 99% of the time people play these cards to break them, and only a few players play them not to their utmost potential. That means that if a card is breakable, people will break it rather than play in normally in most situations. If that didn't happen, we wouldn't need such a big ban list
July 11, 2013 2:56 p.m.
Yes, local unbannings have shown that some things are fine, but local unbannings are usually with the mindset that you won't abuse the cards or they will get rebanned.
My local unbanning was with the mindset to break him, people wanting personal power. To this point, he's been a dud and relatively unimportant, because removal before copying. spot removal saves a lot of problems.
July 11, 2013 3:03 p.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #15
truble a friend of me never had a prime time, so he bought ordered a playset just before it got banned. He never had a chance to try it in EDH. Even if i feel bad for him and even if i loved to abuse my own prime time. Everytime i had a tutor in hand in a green deck it was the target. Everytime i played him, i always fetched the same 2 lands Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Cabal Coffers . Everytime he attacked, Maze of Ith and whatever was left.... That is just what my humble budget alowed me to fetch at that time... My friend were fetching Diamond Valley , Gaea's Cradle , Rishadan Port , The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale .... Primeval Titan diserve it's ban
July 11, 2013 3:09 p.m.
Smith_and_Tonic says... #16
With the way PrimeTime had warped the format, I'm surprised Consecrated Sphinx hasn't been banned. The way games have gone with Consecrated Sphinx on board is every steals and copies until someone says "Screw it! Board Wipe!" and then it is a race to pull it out of the graveyard. It's played exactly how primetime was and should be banned.
July 11, 2013 3:13 p.m.
I wouldn't mind if Deadeye Navigator got banned. There are lots of other things that flicker but that have better limits on how many times, how long, and / or require more mana in the activated ability and / or tapping to activate.
I think Sol Ring helps any deck in the early game and brings big things out too fast if people are lucky enough to just get just the right opening hand. But if that does happen - then that person is naturally public enemy number 1 and that usually doesn't fare well in commander.
I don't think Sol Ring has as much of an impact on the rest of the game since people can get their ramping done by lots of other means in the mid and late game - most of which are far better than the ring in terms of colored mana, amount of mana, and vulnerability to removal.
Primeval Titan is worse that Sylvan Primordial because it gets any lands instead of just a forest. And unless the navigator is paired to Sylvan Primordial , one land (or other thing) destroyed on the whole table that can be replaced the next turn (if it's a land) doesn't seem broken to me.
July 11, 2013 3:25 p.m.
Smith_and_Tonic says... #18
In all the games I've played, whenever a player casts Sylvan Primordial there is a collective groan from the rest of the table. To me, any card that consistently causes players to groan like that really shouldn't be played.
July 11, 2013 3:28 p.m.
If it were up to me, I would ban tutors. Then almost anything else would probably be fine since it would be much more a matter of luck and the replay value and likeliness of consistently getting infinite combos would just end and make the game more fun.
Just my opinion. Don't expect it to actually happen.
July 11, 2013 3:31 p.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #20
Sylvan Primordial makes people groan because we target their lands and fetch more lands, most of the time. Anything that kill lands will make people groan, should we ban land destruction because it's unfun? No, this ain't barbie... At somepoint someone loose and someone win.
July 11, 2013 3:35 p.m.
r3v13w there was talk about that because tutors make every game feel like the same game when played against them. Though again that's the players issue. A lot of things not wanted should be handled by the local meta/playgroup and police themselves. Not everything "bad" should be banned, just create an acceptable play style and have your group enforce it. At competitions (like gp side events), play with the expectation of competitive play and combos and walk in prepared.
July 11, 2013 3:35 p.m.
@gufymike Yep - that's what I did. I made a counterspell deck to handle the case where I play against someone with the tutors and infinite combos.
But most of the people at my LGS don't play like that and neither do I (so I think that I have pulled out that counterspell deck precisely one time and one time only - but it still feels good to have it handy). I find that tutors make the game less fun so if I have any, they are limited like Fierce Empath and Birthing Pod or really there for other effects like Brutalizer Exarch and have to fit in my deck theme in a specific way besides just getting off an infinite combo.
Yes - there is a difference between cards that should be banned and cards that make the game less fun for me LOL. Like I said, I don't think they would actually get banned or expect them to. And I do recognize that this would negatively affect combo-style players in a massively bad way so maybe it is better to keep it to myself ... it may be more of a play style preference thing than a game breaking issue.
July 11, 2013 3:47 p.m.
Bobgalarneau says... #23
The thing with tutor is also that they slow the game alot. Some people in my group play tutor not realy knowing what they want and hoping to get an answer.... So we had to use a clock to limit the tutoring time
July 11, 2013 3:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #24
Tutor bans should be a house rule. On a format-wide scale, they'd make a lot of decks completely unplayable. Combo decks wouldn't work anymore, and control would get worse. Everybody would be playing fatties or stax. Besides, there is some need for consistency in a singleton format.
As for the other four:
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn does cost 15, but that's hardly relevant. The decks that really abuse cards like that can ramp quickly or cheat cards out. The extra turn and the enormous frame make Emrakul an enormous threat, and it's easy to permalock the game by recurring Emrakul on the extra turn.
Gifts Ungiven is banned for good reason. It's ridiculously powerful, especially in BUG and other colors with graveyard recursion. Tutoring for four cards wins you the game in combo-control, even if you only get two of them. Intuition already gives you the game.
Primeval Titan should not have been banned, in my opinion. The RC said every game devolved into a match of who could cast, copy, or kill it first. I never experienced that. Does the table try to kill it? Obviously, it's a threat. But that happens with any threat. I think EDH needs good land tutors because they make plenty of utility lands playable on a larger scale. Plus, it's possible to play Primeval Titan as a normal creature and not try to break the game with it. Casual decks don't generate broken advantage with this card, although they do still ramp.
Griselbrand absolutely deserves to be banned. It's a Yawgmoth's Bargain on a stick. A big, flying stick. Cards like Necropotence get by because you aren't drawing the card (this actually makes an enormous difference), and also because the card is put into your hand later on. When you can instantly refill your hand or draw half your library, then you win the game.
July 11, 2013 4:58 p.m.
Primeval Titan was the only one I really thought I had a case on. The others I was just feeling the water a little.
I am so glad our resident EDH guru Epochalyptik agrees with me~! I am a little warm and fuzzy inside.
I think he hits it on the nose. It is a threat. and like any good threat it needs dealt with, stolen, or something. I didnt feel like i was at a disadvantage when I played Sing to the Jhoira Tune (Would love to discuss) against a deck with prime time.
As far as Tutors go, I play vintage some online so I might be biased.
July 11, 2013 6:12 p.m.
We play a loosely enforced house rule that you need to know what you are getting before you tutor.
July 11, 2013 6:14 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #27
The thing about Primeval Titan is that it doesn't instantly win you the game like the other cards you listed. It generates advantage, sure, but it's answerable and it doesn't immediately ruin the game state. Even if you find I think perhaps the most broken chain of fetches would be Cabal Coffers , Gaea's Cradle , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth , and Deserted Temple . Even then, only two come in at a time, they come in tapped, and they only generate mana.
July 11, 2013 7:02 p.m.
Jace the Firebrand says... #28
Palinchron while we're on the topic. If there's a deck with blue in it, it has some filthy combo involving this guy. from Deadeye Navigator to the humble Phantasmal Image , Palinchron has a way of sapping all fun from the game.
July 14, 2013 6:07 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #29
Palinchron isn't banworthy though. Yes it's a sin condition, but so are a lot of other cards. Palinchron doesn't win the game on its own. You need at least one other card to go infinite, then another card to take advantage of the mana.
Deadeye Navigator is more banworthy than Palinchron . It makes ETB and LTB abilities extremely abusable. Even then, it needs to be used in conjunction with other cards to make it good.
July 14, 2013 9:57 p.m.
for all you people talking about banning other cards look here: Things that need banned !
July 15, 2013 9:34 a.m.
I started EDH after Primeval Titan was banned, so I never got to play with it. Which saddens me. It looks so fun! Bring 'em back, dang it!
July 17, 2013 4:06 p.m.
I despise Iona, Shield of Emeria
I have a horrible time dealing with it. I have a two color deck but it still puts everything to a halt for me. There are plenty of ways to get rid of it but it is a real pain and I would love to see it added to the banned list.
September 4, 2013 3:28 a.m.
I think it might be too late for a Primeval Titan unbanning, since now it reads "When Primeval Titan enters the battlefield, put a legendary 20/20 black Avatar creature token with flying and indestructible named Marit Lage onto the battlefield." I do think that pre-Legend changes the banning wasn't terribly justified, but since every single deck can play Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage , letting him back in just means that the first person to play Primetime is at a much bigger advantage than he used to be.
Or, bring him back and ban Dark Depths . That would bother people who like to play it with Vampire Hexmage , but no more than it bothers people who want to play with Primeval Titan . I don't think they can both be unbanned.
September 4, 2013 1:08 p.m.
Rhadamanthus says... #35
Regardless of what the new Legend Rule says, Primeval Titan should stay banned. The only time I ever resolved it (in my Scion of the Ur-Dragon EDH deck) the game immediately turned into the "kill/copy/steal/reanimate" game, and the group of people I play with don't usually play that way. Together we're the bright and shining example of the "use broken cards in gentlemanly ways" mentality, but it's impossible not to break your game with the Green Titan, unless you're purposefully playing badly (which is definitely not okay in our book). One EtB and one attack later, you're 4 turns ahead of the rest of the board, and that's insane.
Smith_and_Tonic says... #2
The reason for those bannings is because they make games unfun or force a game to devolve into who can gain control the of creature. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn should stay banned because he is too hard to remove plus he has annihilator 6, something people don't ever want to see. He can also be used in an infinite turn combos rather easily.
Primeval Titan , when he was unbanned, would change the way a game was played too drastically. Whenever a player would cast PrimeTime, other people would try to steal it or kill it and reanimate out of the graveyard. The game became, who can control PrimeTime instead of a fun game of magic.
Being able to draw cards without limit is just too good. This is the reason Yawgmoth's Bargain is banned with Necropotence is unbanned. Griselbrand is a huge beater with the ability to refill your hand too easily. He can also gain you a lot of life, which just turns into more cards.
The aforementioned cards should stay banned in EDH since they create environments that aren't fun and can easily be broken. I don't think Gifts Ungiven should be banned since it is an opponents choice which cards you get and the card in itself is not degenerate.
July 11, 2013 12:08 p.m.