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Whenever an opponent discards a card, you may draw a card.
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Geth's Grimoire Discussion
Rahvin_dom on ZOa
3 days ago
It sounds like you want to:
- Slow down opponents' ability to cast spells, which forces opponents to keep cards in hand
- Force opponents to discard, limiting their options
- Use discard triggers to punish opponents
This sounds like it can work with Bolas. The risk I'd point out is with the discard punishers, specifically ones like Megrim and Liliana's Caress. They can be a little fragile - once the opponent no longer has any cards, you stop getting triggers. They're nice incidental damage and can add up, but you can't rely on them to actually close out the game. Bolas is also not ideally suited to the stax plan - he doesn't inherently break symmetry, so there are much better options for hard stax.
Wheels that discard are going to be excellent for you, getting a ton of discard triggers. Ignore wheels that shuffle and then draw without discarding.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur would be a pretty amazing, synergistic reanimation target. You should definitely run some reanimation effects if you plan to force opponents to discard - you can grab tasty targets from your own deck or theirs. Reanimate, Animate Dead, Necromancy, Dance of the Dead are a good start.
Back to Basics doesn;t stop you from using your own fetches (even budget slow-fetches) since you only use those once - they don;t need to untap. Blood Moon works, and it sets your nonbasics to one of your actual colors, but it also turns all your fetches into Mountains. Watch out for that.
I'd also look at Ruination. It's MLD...but it only blows up non-basic lands. It's exactly what you're doing with the enchantments, but with removal.
You already seem to know the mana rock drill from your Nekusar deck. You want to lean heavily on the mana rocks - all of the 2CMC signets/talismans/Fellwar Stone. Fellwar is going to get much less useful once you land Bloood Moon though. Star Compass is useful since you'll be loading heavily on basic lands. Coldsteel Heart is useful to plug a specific color hole. Obviously Sol Ring. You're going to be looking for color fixing more than anything, so Chromatic Lantern is worth the extra mana, and any Mox you can afford are worthwhile (except Mox Amber, that one's less useful).
You need land fetching. Grixis Panorama is normally not a recommendation, but it can find any of your three colors, not just two, and you're already basically excluding fetchable duals with the stax effects. Journeyer's Kite and Thaumatic Compass Flip, Armillary Sphere, Pilgrim's Eye, Skittering Surveyor, Solemn Simulacrum, Sword of the Animist, Wayfarer's Bauble are all at least playable. The ETB creatures are useful if you plan to abuse Nicol Bolas, the Ravager Flip's ETB effect - you can use blink effects and Panharmonicon to get extra triggers.
Blood Moon and Back to Basics are great, but they likely are not enough to consistently slow opponents enough to be wroth all of this workaround by themselves. Even Ruination doesn't add enough. Unfortunately Grixis doesn;t have any of the neat land-untap triggers like Nature's Will or Seedborn Muse - if it did, you could abuse things like Stasis and Rising Waters and Static Orb more easily. Still, you could support Winter Orb with enough mana rocks. Be sure to run good one-sided artifact removal like Vandalblast to keep opponents from using their own rocks.
And of course Omniscience can let you blow up all the artifacts and lands and still play what you want. You'll be running a ton of rocks anyway, which could ramp you into it fairly early.
The big thing, though, is how you want to win. Stax doesn;t work super well on its own - you need to be using stax to slow your opponents down so that you can pull off your own win condition. Do you have any ideas on how youd like to win, even if just generally? Combat, combos, punisher effects like Megrim, mill, etc?
2 weeks ago
Arcan1s_666, that's a very good question. I'm honestly not sure - I have something of a mental loop where I try to think about what to replace, and then I just go back to "But the Invocation Doomsday looks so pretty and flavorful!"
But honestly it would likely be more interaction first and foremost. Maybe more draw that doesn't rely on discard.
The full Doomsday package is: Doomsday, Laboratory Maniac, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gitaxian Probe, Gush, Deep Analysis and Yawgmoth's Will. Yawgwin is too good to remove on its own, so that stays regardless (even though the foil is going to cost me...). Gush is also pretty great. So is Deep Analysis. So we really only have ~4 cards to play with.
My Maybeboard is pretty filled with ideas. The biggest weakness of the deck right now is lack of creature defenses. I have some, but not a lot. Evacuation would be a great include - I would get to re-cast Bolas, and most of my opponents get hosed worse just because I'm so creature-light. And it's instant speed, which is always a bonus. Warped Devotion and Words of Wind would be interesting. Devotion hits me too, though, so it's still iffy. I keep wanting to run it (I already own a couple foils, it's cheap), but I need to have a good density of bounce and some way to make sure I'm not suffering worse. I suppose I'm not running a ton of permanents and that might be helpful. Archfiend of Depravity might be nice too, to help keep the enemy creature count low.
Of course, a different combo would also be possible. Worldgorger Dragon, likely with Flash as an enabler, works with Animate Dead and ETB-untapped lands to generate infinite mana. As long as you can stop the loop (usually by reanimating something else), you can make infinite mana for a Torment of Hailfire win. It's compact, uses mostly cards that are not dead outside of the combo, but it's also pretty risky and vulnerable to interaction - it generates mana for opponents too if they have ETB-untapped lands.
Lastly, I could just add a few more tutors. Getting Geth's Grimoire or Waste Not on the field is pretty important to the rest of the deck. Tutors help with that, and with finding the win condition when it's time.
Those are my current thoughts, anyway.
3 weeks ago
Sadistic Hypnotist- all your opponents lose their hands, elf triggers, good stuff. Dark Deal, more Nath triggers. Geth's Grimoire draws you crazy cards with wheels. Megrim, Liliana's Caress, Fell Specter, Raiders' Wake are all good for a discard deck. I'd throw Mind Slash in this deck too.
3 weeks ago
If you want to go hard into discard, painful quandry is a house of an enchantment.
Vanquisher's Banner will anthem your elves as well as provide draw to fuel your elf engine!
3 weeks ago
I'm not sure why no one is mentioning this but the best way to get draw in Red or White for that matter other than wheel cards, which you should run, are artifacts.
There are many artifact cards that let you draw an extra card each turn, even the ones that make everyone draw a card each turn seem to give Red more advantage than other colors as your burn and copy spells are very strong.
Mind's Eye is 100% worth it. Howling Mine and Font of Mythos are both actually very good in mono red. I run all of the above plus these: Coercive Portal, Coveted Jewel, Endless Atlas, Temple Bell, and The Immortal Sun
If you run Wheel effects or effects that make everyone discard and draw, Geth's Grimoire, can give you huge advantage.
If you are having trouble with lands I also recommend running more mana rocks.
Cards that make Red spells cost 1 mana less to cast are very helpfull as well as anything that will double your mana.
I also highly recommend Mizzix's Mastery, very powerful when combined with wheels and copied. You can recast the wheel cards on the first go and then use the cards you discarded from the wheel for the second go. I've cast over 20 spells in one turn doing this and managed to cast 3 cards that made me empty my hand end redraw that many cards or 7 cards using Mizzix's Mastery.
I have two Red & White decks, one uses Wheel type cards heavily, the other uses Mana Rocks and Artifacts to make you or everyone draw cards.
1 month ago
Some card ideas for ya since you have a strong discard theme going on as well. These ideas can also be used as another win con in case opponents remove your critters that poison them.
1 month ago
I like what you've doing here. I was thinking of trying a similar version of Xantcha that eschewed the standard fare of quasi-aikido/punisher effects.
Drownyard Temple becomes discard fodder into mid-game ramp.
Runehorn Hellkite becomes discard fodder into a late-game wheel effect.
That's all I've got for now. I'll likely reference your list for what I'll end up brewing. Thanks for putting it together.