Modern Temur (GUr) Infect?
Deck Help forum
Posted on Sept. 1, 2014, 5:54 a.m. by Abubroki
I'm well aware that the Infect archetype is GU (I'm not counting Apostle's Blessing Phyrexian white). I imagine some people have definitely analyzed splashing red in Modern GU Infect (eg for Assault Strobe ), and as there are no tier Infect decks with red, at least in Modern, I must conclude it is not viable. Any thoughts on why exactly? Is it just that 3 color Infect is not as consistent as GU, (hence neither top tier BUG/Sultai Infect decks), or also that Assault Strobe is a sorcery and not an instant?
I would be willing to try a GUr Infect deck ("Temur" as per KTK color code) with red for Assault Strobe . Initial deckbuilding would be pretty straightforward: Gleistener Elf, Blighted Agent , Groundswell , Apostle's Blessing , Vines of Westwood, and Assault Strobe : 24 cards; 16 plus 20 lands remaining... For the remaining 16 non-land cards, for example: 2 Birds of Paradise , 4 Viridian Corrupter , 2 Wild Defiance , 2 Distortion Strike , 2 Gitaxian Probe , 4 Mutagenic Growth . Now, for the lands, 4 Inkmoth Nexus , 2-3 Pendelhaven (maybe the 3rd Pendelhaven is necessary to compensate for the lack of Noble Hierarch 's Exalted), 4 Breeding Pool are arguably staples. Now that there are allied fetches reprinted in KTK, I can replace 2-4 Verdant Catacombs with Wooded Foothills , and add 2 Stomping Ground or Steam Vents , 1 Forest, 1 Dryad Arbor, and 4 Misty Rainforest to get the 20 lands...
I would love to hear comments.
GlistenerAgent says... #4
Tom Ross wrote an article about this sort of thing.
Anyway, I'll explain why it's worse than UG (which I happen to play and you can check out on my profile).
Red gives you some better sideboard options (the important one is really just Ancient Grudge ), as well as access to Ghor-Clan Rampager and Assault Strobe . The real reason for the splash is Ghor-Clan Rampager anyway.
Firstly, this does hurt your manabase. Obviously, you need your three colors and Noble Hierarch only makes two of them. You can fetch Stomping Ground , but even then there will be Stomping Ground - Blighted Agent draws that you have to mulligan.
Secondly, RUG Infect is much more all-in. Assault Strobe is a sorcery, meaning that they know you are going for it that turn. Might of Old Krosa is also a sorcery, but that doesn't matter because it's efficient. Ghor-Clan Rampager is less efficient, and all the pump spell slots are better than it. If you want the extra pump, you'd likely have to cut important things like Gitaxian Probe and Distortion Strike , which I feel to be better than trample in the format right now. If you'd like to know more, talk to me. I've tried almost every different kind of Infect, even some that Tom doesn't talk about.
September 1, 2014 8:23 a.m.
I agree G">Gl">li">is">st">te">en">ne">er">rA">Ag">ge">en">nt">t: it hurts your mana base a lot, which is particularly important when you want to win on turn 2-3. It gives you some good options to the sideboard though.
I've had a different approach: I splashed red on the MBC Infect deck (you can check it on my profile). It's just two colours (so it doesn't hurt the manabase so much) and it gives you access to a lot of goodies, both on main deck and especially on sidebaord.
September 1, 2014 9:25 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #6
Also, note that the fetchlands you use in Infect do not matter whatsoever, so long as they are green. I will be switching to Wooded Foothills and Windswept Heath because they will be cheaper to acquire, but it does not matter. You should not be playing nongreen shocks (Steam Vents and Watery Grave usually), because they do not cast one-drops or any pump spells. Vines of Vastwood is a heavy requirement.
September 1, 2014 9:58 a.m.
GlistenerAgent: thanks for the quick explanation and link; In fact I have read at least twice your deck description in the past weeks (and also some fundamental articles you linked in the comment thread of another fellow T/O GU Infect player), ever since I built a monogreen Infect deck, which I plan to turn into a full fledged GU Infect deck; I did not bridged your new T/O alias : ) And yes, I noticed you changed your fetchlands since yesterday confirmation of KTK allied fetches reprint (which made me very happy, since it cuts by some amount my budget for the 6-8 fetches to go GU).
Walrusyn: I checked your deck a few days ago; fully agree on Funeral Charm , which I seem to recall was underplayed in the Vision days (I took a break from MTG back then until a few months ago). In fact, as Tom Ross says in the article linked by GlistenerAgent, I might acquire slowly cards to pool an "Infect Box", to try many variations instead of just keeping a sole evolving version, since I already own some of the black and red cards you mention from my other decks.
Ok; thanks to both, well noted : ) Eager to keep playing and learning Infect intricacies...
September 1, 2014 10:52 a.m.
I'd like to add on to the conversation as a very knowledgeable infect player...
As much as I love the red splash, I feel GU infect has everything you need already. Mutagenic is a free buff, groundswell is almost always +4/+4, might of old krosa is a +4/+4 buff, vines is protection. How I look at is whatever u take out of GU infect, it's gonna hurt you in the long run.
Also, it's hard to splash red and not run ghor clan Rampager. Splashing red for just assault strobe probably isn't best. Also, I don't know what it's called because I forget frankly but there is a card I personally think is better than assault strobe. It's 
/
and it gives the creature double strike at INSTANT SPEED. It's a lot more useful since the opponent won't know you're going for it that turn before combat. Also, the extra won't hurt since you can tap Inkmoth or tec edge (I run tec edge in my list) to pay for it.
Also, sorry for not liking any cards, I'm on my mobile device and don't feel like going back and forth between letter and symbols XD
September 1, 2014 11:41 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #9
You're thinking of Double Cleave . It's a fine card, and it does the job, and I would play it over Assault Strobe if I played RUG Infect. However, the same argument as before applies, as they know you are going for it and can kill your guy. Also, +4/+4 is usually as good or better than double strike.
September 1, 2014 11:46 a.m.
Thats exactly what i was thinking GlistenerAgent. I wad gonna saw that and then i thought that double strike does solve the problem off "oh look, im swing for 9 infect".
September 1, 2014 12:33 p.m.
Btw, GlistenerAgent, can you post the other articles about Infect decks that Abubroki was mentioning? :)
Thanks in advance.
September 1, 2014 1:50 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #12
@Walrusyn No problem. I'll put them at the bottom of the description for my own Infect deck, which you can find here:
Spreading the Sickness Playtest
Modern*
SCORE: 71 | 11 COMMENTS | 9061 VIEWSSeptember 1, 2014 1:52 p.m.
Wow, thank you guys, this is literally standing over giants' shoulders ; ).
Just some small considerations (merely thinking out loud):
I see your point GlistenerAgent on red not being neccesary, in the sense that G and U are enough for efficient aggro Infect, especially for mainboard. Ghor-Clan Rampager provides trample and +4/+4 at RG; there are already 2 spells giving +4/+4 for G (plus the kicked Vines), although both have extra conditionals, and typically only Rancor or Llanowar Augur add trample, and at specific phases of the turn at that, so the trade-off for Ghor-Clan Rampager is decided by manabase consistency.
I suspect the question of Double Strike being more useful or not than the +4/+4s may be related to the lethal threshold of Infect, ie 10 damage. I would need to simulate a huge number of games with the 10 damage threshold as a parameter (what if it were 8, 9, 11, etc; and I am no way able to do so), but the conclusion would probably be that double strike is at best marginally more often the win-con than the green pumping spells. Even with exalted and Pendelhaven, double strike on a normal attack would not be lethal without at least one +4/+4 and/or one Mutagenic. However, if you would need for example 15 Infect damage to kill the opponent instead of 10 (assuming the Infect aggro archetype would remain competitive nearly as it is now), the deck might be needing double strike to kill earlier: A small number of blows can yield the 10 Infect damage (a swing with exalted, another with mutagenic and pendelhaven, a last +4/+4, whatever), but dealing 15 Infect total damage would probably need double strike as a nearly mandatory turn 4-6 effect to double the last blow... So it looks like red for Infect leads paradoxically to more late game and mid-range gambits, like Walrusyn Rakdos Infection deck, at least to have a priori competitive red Infect... (I still have to read Tom Ross' article on the variants).
Lastly I am not sure I understand why using Double Cleave would tell the opponent more clearly than a green pumping spell that I am swinging for lethal if in both cases the result would be lethal. Say opponent has taken 4 Infect damage in the preceding turns and I swing with an Exalted Glistener Elf for 2 damage holding in hand a Mutagenic Growth . Now in scenario A I hold in hand Double Cleave and in scenario B I have Groundswell . In both cases I would wait until assigning blockers to cast the Mutagenic and either instant, and both scenarios would be lethal for the opponent, dealing 8 damage. Why would the opponent not try to destroy the Elf in response to either Double Cleave or Groundswell ?
Many thanks in advance.
September 2, 2014 4:36 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #15
It's more for when they aren't close to dead. In your scenario, I would obviously rather be casting Mutagenic Growth . Double strike doesn't help when they are almost dead anyway. Double Cleave also costs two mana.
September 2, 2014 7:14 a.m.
So Double Strike is suboptimal in the very early game and rather unnecessary overkill when they are almost dead, at the extra cost of the mana inconsistency (and other useful slots in the G or UG variants)... Well noted; thanks GlistenerAgent.
September 2, 2014 7:41 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #17
You're exactly correct. The double strike spells cost more (either mana cost or speed) for a benefit that is not always more than +4/+4. When it is, the opponent knows to use their removal instead of saving it.
September 2, 2014 7:51 a.m.
TheGamer: Are there any clear advantages on running Tectonic Edge over Ghost Quarter in an Infect Deck? Both seem pretty much balanced to me (you can destroy any land but he keeps a basic one untapped vs. you spend one more mana to destroy any non-basic assuming he has 4+ lands etc.). This might not be the exact place to mention this, but I am interested in this aspect of the "modern strip mines" for my monogreen Infect (10 Neurotoxins (monogreen Infect)), to maybe include 1-2 copies of either in my land count, although it seems more a mid-range or control gambit than a pure aggro thing...
September 2, 2014 10:46 a.m.
I see how you may think Tectonic Edge is worse and Ghost Quarter is better, but i really like tec edge best. Tec edge can color screw someone (its hard to mana screw someone if they are left with 3 lands) very easily. Sure, ghost quater still does color screw, but they could just search up whatever color you just destroyed.
Also, sometimes getting them off mana is good. Maybe im playing against control and i dont want them on a lot of mana. If they have a lot of mana they could easily sphinx for a lot and hit morr cards with snapcaster.
September 2, 2014 4:25 p.m.
Indeed, my first thought was "the drawback of leaving the opponent with a basic land untapped must really wreck the 0 cost of Ghost Quarter and the fact it targets any land..., and yet it seems so much cheaper (or faster) than Tectonic Edge "... My real doubt is if there should be any land slots (say 1-2) at all for either card in an aggro Infect deck. Surely not in GU or GUr or GUb, but in monogreen? I could cut forests by 2... I would not want to play either in my first turn, and I could not play Tec edge arguably before turn 4 on the draw or five on the play, so either card would seem not pertaining to an aggro Infect aiming at killing at turns 2-4... Anyway this may be too much micromanaging X )
September 2, 2014 7:01 p.m.
Actually, i run it in my GU Infect Build, and really love it. I was running 2 Tectonic Edge , but now i only run one. The colorless did hurt every so often and i decided to drop to 18 lands. Here's my infect build if you wanna see:
Mirrodin Calls for your service... Playtest
Modern
SCORE: 6 | 29 COMMENTS | 624 VIEWSSeptember 2, 2014 7:09 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #22
I personally hate playing extra colorless lands. TheGamer plays 18 lands and Tectonic Edge , which seems pretty greedy to me, but it seems to work. I prefer more consistent mana and room for splashes should I want them. It's even more of a concern when you need your first three lands to be of the perfect colors, as when you have to wait your whole gameplan is messed up.
My recommendation is to not play any land destruction, especially when you're three colors. It's already kind of hard to make your mana work, and it's not worth shooting yourself in the foot. Ghost Quarter is unplayable if you want a Strip Mine , so play Tectonic Edge instead.
September 2, 2014 7:11 p.m.
Lol... Im just a super greedy guy, that's all GlistenerAgent, lol XD
As I said, I REALLY love Tectonic Edge , like, A LOT! In my experience at the PTQ playing it, it worked really well. The most productive things it did were 1) I blew up a rock player's only black source and didn't see a single removal spell after that and 2) I blew up a Celestial Colonnade that was about to swing for lethal. Not only did I have to deal with another colonnade, but I also got rid of his 3rd blue source so I saw no Cryptic Command s.
September 2, 2014 7:17 p.m.
Lol I should not have presumed there could not be a Tec Edge in a non monocolored Infect deck, TheGamer, sorry about that. For now, I'll stick to GlistenerAgent's recommendation to not play Tec Edge, although your experience suggests I should try it, at least in monogreen Infect... I am also lately in a mood of frowning at non-tutorable singletons in any deck, although there was a time where it was the opposite...
I have some comments about your build, TheGamer, although the comments answer some of them, but I'll better post there instead of here if you don't mind.
Funny to hear from Olle Rade, kind of a deja-vu : ) I remember his winning Hong-Kong invitational over Michael Long with a singleton Snake Basket and after that my friends and me trying to stuff that card in all our amateurish casual decks for a while (I also remember his pseudo-junk Pro Tour spider RG deck, but we didn't play Standard...)
September 3, 2014 4:28 a.m.
Lol Abubroki, snakes... Sooooo weird.
If you don't want to run tec edge, that's completely fine. No infect deck runs tec edge except me so...
September 3, 2014 7:52 a.m.
Don't get me wrong, TheGamer, I am definitely willing to try Tectonic Edge as I find your rationale pretty convincing. But for now I am a total rookie in terms of actual play experience in Infect, so I prefer to include it later, when I can gauge its effect more accurately and take a better informed decision. I still foresee though it might have less drawbacks in monogreen Infect (the only Infect I have played so far), but I have not seen either any monogreen Infect list running Tec Edge... Back when i quit playing MTG in the mid 90s nearly everyone included always a Strip Mine in any deck, just like I seem to recall many Legacy archetypes autoinclude Wasteland , so I kind of sympathize with including Tec Edge instead of the 12th Forest...
And btw, many thanks to you and GlistenerAgent, your comments here and in your decks are very insightful and a great deal of help.
September 3, 2014 8:32 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #27
Here's the argument against Tectonic Edge , outside of the simple issue of colors:
Generally, when you play a Tectonic Edge you cut a Breeding Pool or a fetchland. This means that you have a smaller chance at getting your blue. The advantage of Tectonic Edge is in grindy midrange/controlling decks, the same decks where you want to be playing your sideboarded blue spells and sometimes your Distortion Strike s. Killing their animated Celestial Colonnade is great, but what were you doing to let them get to six mana? It is likely that you were missing a fetchland to get a needed color, or perhaps that fetchland could have found Dryad Arbor after they killed all your infect guys. That's why I don't play Tectonic Edge , but it can definitely have some value. Ideally, the opponent shouldn't get to four or five lands, and you'd rather have it be a colored source.
September 3, 2014 8:37 a.m.
Right. Understood and thanks GlistenerAgent. Like I said, lack of experience; should have thought of SB against games dragging beyond T4-5...
Abubroki says... #2
Edit. Glistener Elf ; sorry!
September 1, 2014 6:10 a.m.