You guys can argue about all these good red cards for Purph that can help him against different match ups but that shouldn't give him a spot in T1. Purph will never get the right cards he needs for difficult match ups consistently so just having them in the deck doesn't work. T1 decks can pretty much utilize their better colors to get any card they need anytime while all Purph gets is hopes of top decking the card he needs. This is just what I start thinking about when I see people spouting out cards that CAN give Purph the edge even though they'll never have them when they need it most. So, for me, giving card names to counter situations is not an argument really...

Ah so you're asking about tutors like Gamble and Imperial Recruiter, draw spells like Wheel of Fortune and Slate of Ancestry, library manipulation like Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top, and other stuff like that? I think mono-red probably has enough to be consistent.

Also, you can't discount the fact that red has access to two of the more potent counterspells/destruction spells in commander.

Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are just amazing in commander.

Also, as someone who plays Feldon reanimator "red can't draw" I call bullshit. Like supreme, steaming, hot bullshit.

I'm not even going to bother listing them all but I'll just start with this: have you seen standard? Have you seen ANY of the goggles ramp decks? Notice a theme where the draw spells are concerned? All red.

Alright, so conversation is deviating off topic a bit. Let's break down what's been said.

Of all the mono-colors, remember that red gets the biggest incentives: Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Ruination, From the Ashes, Burning Earth, etc.

Personally, I disagree. I think that mono-green has much better support, as all the ramp dorks synergize to pump each other out, and then you can drop a Cradle or Acolyte into Craterhoof. However, that's a point for another day. Blood Moon and Magus are fantastic, but they don't necessarily need to be run in only red. In fact, some of the best red lists won't run them at all, as they're combo decks (Slobad eggs!) and a stax card will slow them down. Burning Earth doesn't do much, really, just pings them. Combine that with the fact that most EDH decks won't rely on land too much, it just turns into a 4 mana enchantment that'll deal about 20 damage throughout the game. MLD is fine, but other colors have better, more absolute MLD (Cataclysm, Armageddon, Ravages, Sunder, etc). Leyline of Punishment is pretty bad. Most decks aren't gaining life or preventing damage, making it much less of a "fantastic hoser card." War's Toll and Stonebreaker Shaman are nice, but only really hurt the dedicated control decks (which aren't much of the meta anyway). Sure, they can make Yisan activate on their turn, but they're pretty pathetic in light of more powerful hatebears like Teeg or Mindcensor.

Playing a stax version of Purphy isn't great. There are better options, and those options (Brago, Derevi, Zur as always) are in much better colors, with much better generals. Sure, you're general's a wincon, but stax isn't fast, it's slow. Most of your suggestions for a stax version of Purphy can just be thrown into an Alesha list and do much, much better with Necro and MLD support.

Ah so you're asking about tutors like Gamble and Imperial Recruiter, draw spells like Wheel of Fortune and Slate of Ancestry, library manipulation like Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top, and other stuff like that? I think mono-red probably has enough to be consistent.

Yeah... not really. Other colors have much, much better tutor support. Too many to list for Black and Green, but in Blue and White, there's Mystical, Merchant Scroll, Dizzy Spell (grabs High Tide), Altar of Bone, Eladamri's Call, and many, many more. Red's card draw isn't as good without a nice Notion Thief, and Wheel is subpar when compared to Timetwister, or even Day's Undoing.

Also, you can't discount the fact that red has access to two of the more potent counterspells/destruction spells in commander.

Yeah, I'll give you that, but consider this: Why limit yourself to mono-red? Consider this turn sequence (ignoring the other 2 opponents): Turn 1, you go land pass, same with Jeleva. Turn 2, you go land into rock, Jeleva goes land into rock into tutor. Turn 3, you go land Purphy, Jeleva goes land tutor. Turn 4, you cast some token spell, bam, deals 6 to the table! Jeleva storms out and you lose. Now, can red interact with storm at all (outside of generic stuff like Trinisphere)? Not without REB and Pyroblast. Even then, it's not as powerful as White (Rule of Law) or Blue (any counterspell), two of the best stax colors.

I'm not even going to bother listing them all but I'll just start with this: have you seen standard? Have you seen ANY of the goggles ramp decks? Notice a theme where the draw spells are concerned? All red.

Oh come on. Standard? Comparing that to EDH? Should we all be running Anafenza Siege Rhino decks? Standard is nowhere near the power level of EDH. Goggles Ramp? Yeah, have you ever seen an EDH goggles list? Try goldfishing with one and see where it gets you. You're ignoring a bunch of draw spells like Painful Truths, and even cantrips like Anticipate. You can't reasonably compare Standard to EDH. Nobody goes "OMG RUN ARC SLOGGER EDH DECK" because it's powerful in Mirrodin Block Constructed.

I really hope you're not considering placing Purphy in tier 1. He is not:

• One of the most powerful decks in the format

• A deck that wins turns 3-5 consistently

• Commonly seen at competitive tables

• Super resilient with protection and a backup plan

• A deck that takes dedicated hate to counter

Finally, let's take a look at a comparison of the other tier 1 decks.

OP: Zur, Jeleva, Karador, Prossh, 5c Combo, Yisan, FREAKING ZUR

Slightly less than OP: Animar, Arcum, Azami, Brago, Damia, Derevi, Edric, etc.

Purphy does not stack up. Notice a pattern? These commanders break the game in some way. They are consistent, and actually win in great ways. Purphy does not fit any of these descriptions.

TL;DR: Purphy is nowhere near tier 1. Don't put him there.

Leinahtan I think your post ignores some of the points that were made earlier. Not sure if you saw them? Also, I think a little toning back of the hostility might be nice. We are having a discussion, not a capslock contest.

"I'm not saying that purph is better, just that they have their merits." - Me I'm simply stating that purph isn't as bad as people think, and that he has some merits at least. T1? Doubtful. However we are just tinkering around with what "optimized" means for him.

Also, my point about standard was only that red has access to some FANTASTIC red draw options provided you are willing to work with the "downsides" Standard is just highlighting them currently, hence my use of the format as an example. Again, I'm not going to sit here and list them all because I'm sure we are all aware of the 12,940,812,409 Wheel of Fortune knock offs and other things like that. Red has always had good draw provided that you are willing to accept the discarding inherent to the color.

Lastly, of course you're going to get access to more powerful cards if you splash a color, that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the best cards in slot when it comes to a mono red deck.

TL;DR No one but PurphorosGodoftheForge said he should be T1, we are just discussing what "optimized" means in his case. Also, chill.

I have been a way a while and notice quite a few changes. My question is why did Oloro get demoted?

Leinahtan As i say again to all i am sorry if i have offended anyone about this card i accepted that everyone has there own opinion about this card witch sweet not a issue, what i am asking was why was he moved from tier one to start with then i left it there, then i uploaded my deck and said lets have a discussion on what we could do to improve him then and better him to others with a open minds towards him and not focusing on his flaws as every commander has there flaws there is none that are perfect 100% of the time. If you want to be hostile then so be it, i am a vet i have been to hell and back so you are nothing to me and your words are useless to me you advice and opinions are accepted other than that shut your mouth if you don't have nothing nice to say about the discussion.

Sorry admins about this but i don't see how its fair that i am getting hostilities from another user, i have said what i have said and i will leave it there nothing more to say about it to Leinahtan unless his gives a opinion in this.

probably because he himself isn't a combo piece himself, he is outclassed by sharuum, and esper commander who provides a durable easily recurable combo with herself, and the ability to fetch othr combo pieces from the grave, oloro simply doesn't do enough in comparison to the other t1 commanders, who, as a trend, tend to be a full win con in themselves (sharuum, jeleva, tasigur), or the ability to instantly/quickly find a win con through its own effect (yisan, zur, arcum)

I need to learn how to type when drunk, sorry about the typos. that is unacceptable.

Thank you thegigibeast for atleast looking at the setup for the deck with a open mind and looking at it with real thought

No problem PurphorosGodoftheForge ;p

I just want to clarify some things. The discussion was healthy up to a certain point, but now I feel a lot of hate and incomprehension from certain users. I would like to avoid those kinds of discussions/comments, because some people might loose interest in the list because of this, and I want as much people as possible to discuss here. So if you have nothing good to say, please say nothing.

Again, yes I am also looking at how to optimize Purphoros, God of the Forge, but I won't make him tier 1. I will look at different versions (the stax one with Smokestack seems to be an intersting use of the tokens), but the idea would be to make him a better tier 2 commander.

As far as building purph I can give a crack at it since I have some experience with Krenko and Feldon. Might take me a while due to IRL.

My first instinct is to make it a multi cored deck like my gisa deck. The rituals to power out purph and stacks elements lend themselves to adding Empty the Warrens for a potential large combo kill. It's enticing and fairly easy to do seeing as you would only need to cast 10 spells to warrens for lethal. Back that up with stax effects to slow your opponents down and we might have something.

Relying on Gamble as the main tutor isn't sexy but if we gamble right after Wheeling it shouldn't be too bad and it has the added benefit of disrupting our opponent's hands if they only left up U for something like Swan Song.

Yup, and if we are going towards red storm, cards like Young Pyromancer are going to be real MVP in the deck.

That would lower the needed storm count by about 1/4 if my top of head math is right.

I'd be less inclined to lean on storm completely though. Red has 2 amazing counters but..... A backup is very needed.

So we'd not want to plan on winning with Warrens. Still include YP but I'd try to lean more of the grind seeing as people will be interacting with us more than others.

Would a Furnace of Rath effect speed up the storm enough? Also, is Mana Flare good as another ritual?

Could someone please explain why Mishra, Artificer Prodigy is in Tier 3? His tutoring ability is restricted to artifacts on the stack, which seems useless in a singleton format.

KriegerYYZ, take a look at the tricks in MagicalHacker - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy

im sure the normal Seething Song, Pyretic Ritual along with Vessel of Volatility and Infernal Plunge (gotta use them tokens) will be useful as well. Hellion Eruption should end most games, assuming you don't make purph a creature. Krenko's Command increases your storm count, and i'm sure that without windfall a Reforge the Soul would be cool along with the standard red gas "cantrips" like Tormenting Voice. you all already knew this, but i just wanted to post it up anyway, because i'm bored.

and im pretty sure mishra is hidden tech with his blood-funnel combo shenanigans or whatever

There used to be a token storm modern deck that had a lot of interesting tech like Battle Hymn and so on, I'll see if I can't put that to use as well.

Also, is it worth adding something like Burn at the Stake to just gib a control/stax player causing issues? I've found that type of thing useful in Krenko before just to knock out the guy with the highest likelihood of interacting with me later. I know it only gets one person but...

Sorry if I came off as a bit hostile yesterday. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my post. I hope none of my remarks were interpreted as hate toward decks, or god forbid personal attacks. I see that I had misinterpreted other remarks made, assuming incorrect opinions onto people. My pointedness was easily misinterpreted, and I sincerely apologize to any people I offended. I'll try to be more civil in the future.

It's fine man, just glad we got it all sorted.

I'm going to do what I can to make a dirty decklist and see if we can come up with a better answer for purph other than "just the aggro guy".

Zada, Hedron Grinder+ Expedite ?That is the most effective draw effect I have ever done in red. This plus isoxhron scepter for consistent Han refilling to try to find additional power cards? And since we are trying to storm out, how about a Goblinslide to pump some damage while waiting to hit enough storm to instakill everyone

Ok ive been meaning to come onto this for awhile. Now I know I can't vote for my own general, as I've played him for a long time, but I'm very surprised on Rafiq of the Many's tier placement and would like to bring him back into the discussion.

I'll also vote to downgrade Shattergang Brothers and Roon of the Hidden Realm to tier 3. They are both extremely slow (roon- 5 mana cmc + 2 cmc activation) (shattergang 4 cmc + 3 cmc activation). As someone who has played against and with shattergang in the past, there is no reason he is tier 2 with his [lack of] speed to compete at higher levels.

Ok I have read and re-read all the comments, and have been following this thread since it started. Is Purphoros, God of the Forge a tier 1? No. Is he badass? YES! He was my first EDH general. And damn was he fun. Throw an Urbrask the hidden and bunch of goblins in there and we are rocking. But I am a red player at heart. I like the haste. I like the burn. I like the destruction that red brings. The problem with purphy is the enchantment linked to him. If he was just a straight up creature, he would dominate like the god he is. But you need to bow to him (build up red loyalty). His ability is sick which makes him a staple in any XXR deck out there.