Question about cards that utilize card draw
Modern forum
Posted on Dec. 16, 2022, 8:56 p.m. by 9-lives
Are there any cards that utilize card draw, especially beyond simple "if you draw your second card' into multiple cards which would be like a rule of "if you draw a card this turn' or 'if you draw x cards this turn'? I'm looking for damaging people by drawing cards of my own. The only card I can find that would help and is a wizard is Irencrag Pyromancer. I don't mind if they're wizards or not, but if they are and they have a triggered ability clause, that would be even better.
I already have Archmage Emeritus and Deliberate and Opt, which are given boosts by Harmonic Prodigy.
Daveslab2022 is not quite correct--you want to search for "'whenever you draw'". That will capture the "draw your second card" effects which you said were disfavoured, but did not completely rule out. You also need to limit the search option to Modern-legal cards That gives you forty-one options.
Simply put, I do not think any of the options are fast enough for Modern. Modern is a format where games can be won fairly quickly. These are cards that need a slower game to excel and access to hyper-efficient wheels that can draw 7 or so cards at a time. These cards with single draws like Opt just will not be fast enough to win you the game. For the most part, these will be things that do nothing the turn they drop, have to sit around waiting for minimal effects on the next turn, and just will not be able to accelerate you to victory.
December 17, 2022 1:28 a.m. Edited.
wallisface says... #4
The strongest card with this effect is probably the one dominating Standard at the moment - Sheoldred, the Apocalypse.
However, assuming you're trying to make tweaks to this deck of yours, you have much bigger issues to worry about:
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Ponder is banned in Modern, you can't run that card.
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You're running 79 cards, which is waaay over the 60 card limit, and will lead your deck to being very inconsistent and clumsy.
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Dialing your currently landbase to 60 cards, you're only running the equivalent of 18 lands, which is WAAAY too low considering your mana curve. Burn decks run 19 lands and only play spells costing 1-2 mana. Your deck looks like it needs to be able to reliably hit 3-4 lands to be able to do much of anything. imo you need to be running at least 23-24 lands in a 60-card deck (that's 30-32 lands in a 79 card deck).
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You're running some really suboptimal spells here. In modern you never want to be spending more than 2 mana for a counterspell - Essence Backlash and Ionize are both severely underwhelming (control decks never win by dealing 2 damage. They will however often lose by not being able to counter an important spell in the first few turns of the game). There are also a ton of much better drawspells than Deliberate (like Serum Visions or Consider)
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Your deck has no clear direction. Cards like Basri Ket and The Wanderer are both really weak and have no real purpose here. It's very hard to tell what this deck is actually trying to achieve, and that is going to make it play really awkwardly and make it harder for you to secure wins.
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Harmonic Prodigy and Spellweaver Eternal both want to be in aggressive, pro-active decks, but that's not what they've been allowed, as the rest of the deck looks like it wants to be playing super defensively. However, if you're aiming to be playing something more controlley, you're running waaay too many creatures, and waaay too little interaction.
December 17, 2022 1:40 a.m. Edited.
wallisface I didn't ask for an assessment of my deck. I'm just asking the prompt, which is all I want answered. I don't care if my deck is 'suboptimal' or even 'crappy'. I just want to have fun, honestly, and if I don't use aikido, then I'm not going to play. I am tired of normal decks, and I want to play the aikido for the sake of its archetype, not its ability to win games.
December 17, 2022 10:29 a.m.
This is the second thread you have made 9-lives where someone has spent the time to try and help you out and you have been abjectly rude in response. I think it is pretty clear that wallisface put a good deal of effort into their analysis--they took the time out of their day to look at your deck, examine the card options, and then type out feedback on how to make it more competitive.
But, perhaps the worst part of your dismissive post--it was unnecessary and demonstrated such a lack of reading comprehension one is forced to assume you did not bother to actually read the post you are responding to. wallisface never actually told you to abandon "aikido" as a strategy--they told you that you should cut your deck down to sixty cards (which you should) and should pick a singular strategy to build around (which, you also probably should--even on this very thread, you have mentioned two different strategies for the deck--self-card draw and aikido).
That is not actually telling you "the strategy you want to play as is bad", but saying "you can do this to become better at the strategy you want to play." They were, quite literally, trying to help you advance the very thing you wanted to do--and you either did not read or did such a bad job at reading and missed that fact.
Again, this is at least the second time you have behaved in such a manner--and I did not even address above the fact that you (wrongly) attacked one respondent while failing to thank folks who did answer your question. You might want to try being a bit more considerate to folks who are trying to help you moving forward--otherwise you might find that no one is inclined to help.
December 17, 2022 10:58 a.m.
Dead_Blue_ says... #7
What does Akido mean as in reference to an archetype?
December 17, 2022 1:22 p.m.
@Dead_Blue_ User legendofa has a great table compiling all the various terms and archetypes and their definitions:
December 17, 2022 2:34 p.m.
wallisface says... #10
9-lives your response once again baffles me. Caerwyn’s assessment of this already hits-the-nail perfectly on the head for this - but in addition to this your deck list is filled with your own comments desperately asking for advice/feedback. Considering that, it’s even more bizarre why you would respond this way. I get the feeling you only want “echo-chamber-feedback” (which is about as useful as “no feedback at all”).
December 17, 2022 3:57 p.m.
Caerwyn wallisface Not going to argue with anyone about this stuff. I had a prompt that I asked about in this thread. You're going on a tangent about my entire deck. If you want me to do what you're saying so much, just make your own deck.
December 17, 2022 5:40 p.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #12
9-lives bro he was trying to help you. Nothing he said was incorrect, and you’re taking it as a personal attack. It wasn’t meant to be, I’m certain. Constructive criticism is something you should be thankful for, not spiteful towards.
He could have just responded to the prompt like I did, but he wanted to provide a more insightful answer. So he went out of his way to find your deck AND analyze it for you. Don’t be upset that somebody wanted to do this for you.
December 17, 2022 8:50 p.m.
Last_Laugh says... #13
9-lives your ability to accept constructive criticism has been found lacking. With that attitude, good luck getting any additional help.
December 17, 2022 8:51 p.m.
wallisface says... #14
Lets not all gang-up on the person folks... some people just have a really hard time receiving feedback, and would rather live with their head-in-the-sand. I appreciate the support, but I get the feeling this person has no desire to better themselves, and if anything all this commentary will only regress that stance further.
In any case, the answer to this thread was solved in the first 2 responses, so hopefully the OP at least finds those answers helpful, and can also use those responses as fuel to better navigate the Gatherer website themselves when they need similarly-solvable questions answered.
December 17, 2022 9:27 p.m.
Alright. I admit I was a bit fussy. I just am tired of people telling me the same thing over and over again. My deck archetype literally cannot be competitive. It is just in its choices of what I can choose as cards in it.
I'll respond to wallisface.
I know that most decks should be 60 cards. I don't see the problem with not doing that? And there is no '60 card limit'. I can use 80 cards and it still be legitimate, at least in Modern. Countering spells isn't always the most advantageous early in the game; in fact, it probably becomes more and more important later in the game, considering the ratio of MV to P/T and whatnot. Harmonic Prodigy is a card that is crucial for all of my wizards and their triggered abilities. Spellweaver Eternal is an aikido card, that's why I'm including it.
December 18, 2022 6:15 p.m.
And I'm sorry for being cross. I have one more point: One of the things that gives me a plus to the loss of having 80 cards is how much I invest in card draw: The Inward Eye (15) 3x Archmage Emeritus 4x Deliberate 1x Divination 3x Hindering Light 4x Opt
I might remove some cards and make more room for card draw just for the heck of it.
December 18, 2022 6:38 p.m.
wallisface says... #17
9-lives just responding to your response - up to you what you want to do with my thoughts below.
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the reason 80 cards is a an issue in trying to make a deck competitive is that it ruins any chance of consistency. In pretty-much every deck there will always be worse cards to have, and removing those bad cards for a more optimal 60-card-deck will always yield better results. Even if you’re not aiming for your deck to be top-tier, 60-cards will always be stronger than 80 - and if you’re looking to improve a deck the easiest thing to do is to cut it back to 60 cards.
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on counterspells, people want countermagic to be efficient. There’s a reason all the most popular counter-magic in modern is 1-2 mana. Nobody plays any counter magic costing 3-4 mana unless it has some crazy benefits stapled to it (like Archmage's Charm). This becomes even more important later in the game, where an opponent could cast multiple important spells in a turn - if you only have the mana available to counter one of these spells, the others will get through. Mana efficiency is super important.
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Harmonic Prodigy is potentially a fine build-around card, though the list currently doesn’t make a whole lot of use from it. However I stand by Spellweaver Eternal being really unhelpful/useless in this deck. By the glossary definition in the link Balaam__ provided above, this doesn’t even do anything remotely “Aikido”, so not sure what the theming is here.
I think if you are wanting to improve the deck, the obvious steps i’d be taking are:
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Cut back to 60 cards. Ditch the bad Planeswalkers.
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Get a better land ratio. A 60-card control deck wants at least 23-24 lands minimum.
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Play far less creatures. You can’t ever hope to control the board properly with such a large creature-base.
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Lean more-in on the Aikido theming where it matters, instead of playing a bunch of suboptimal cards for the sake of it. Stuff like Deflecting Palm can be a really potent threat when used well, but you’re watering down everything in a quagmire of “themed badstuff”. Its definitely possible to build a cheap & competitive deck aligned to an “Aikido” theme, but not the way you’re going about it.
December 18, 2022 10:14 p.m.
wallisface says... #18
As an example of a budget list that could work, within this theming:
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24x Lands
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4x Counterspell
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2x Recommission
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2x Spellskite
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3x Spell Pierce
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3x Consider
Now yes, the above list is vastly different to what you're running, and was also just thrown-together now, so will have some optimizations worth making. But is also presents a clear goal of using your opponents resources against themselves, and has the possibility of actually winning games reliably. The cards actually synergise with each-other to present a gameplan.
Just food for thought.
December 18, 2022 10:30 p.m. Edited.
The Question with that list is, wallisface, how the heck am I going to win? You can't counter your way into winning if you don't get at their life points. That's why I'm running Ionize and Essence Backlash. Especially the latter would be great against big creatures. And, every single one of my wizards benefits from Harmonic Prodigy, so I don't understand what you mean by my deck not having much use from it. Since I'm running budget, and already have Clone, I'd rather run that than Control Magic. I already own all of the cards in my deck except for having to buy Irencrag Pyromancer. The only non-budget things in my deck are the lands. Also, the aikido archetype requires that I do damage whenever I counter. That's basically what aikido does. I deleted my planeswalker and the fatespinner. 75 cards is as low as I'll go now.
December 19, 2022 6:52 a.m.
Spellweaver Eternal is an aikido card because it does damage by blocking. This is like a real martial artist doing this in aikido. Also, as I said in my deck's description, with regard to my manabase and card MV, The highest MV card I have is at 4, so I think that my manabase is just fine. I've noted that whenever drawing mana cards in a deck, without too little or too much, it's around 1/3 of the deck that makes for the best. Whenever I had 24 mana cards in a 60 card deck, I found myself often drawing too many throughout the game. Of course, this is dependent upon things like Arboreal Grazer but regardless...
December 19, 2022 7:01 a.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #21
9-lives, not to rain on your parade, but Spellweaver Eternal causes life loss when it becomes blocked in combat, not when it is blocking something else in combat.
December 19, 2022 11:31 a.m.
That's true, Crow-Umbra. Regardless, that is aikido.
December 19, 2022 11:53 a.m.
Daveslab2022 says... #23
9-lives
I think what people are trying to say here is that you would be better off either making your deck more control-y with less finishers, or less control-y with a more well rounded creature base.
I do also recommend streamlining your deck.
In the list that wallisface threw together you win by controlling the board early, landing one of your threats, and protecting it to the end of the game. That’s exactly how a control deck functions.
And you’re wrong, you actually do want to counter early game spells because you don’t have a good way to remove them depending on their impact. You have 0 removal currently in your deck.
If your opponent lands an early Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer or you’re playing against an Elves deck and they flood the board on turn 2/3 before even a single one of your counters is playable.
Essence Backlash is not a good card. It’s too situational, and even if you are playing against a heavy creature deck, dedicating 4 mana to a counter is too much, even if you do get to do a little damage with it. You need cheaper counters to get “underneath” your opponent. This means you can play a 2-3 mana spell on turn 4/5 and still hold up 2 mana for a Counterspell.
December 19, 2022 12:02 p.m.
Daveslab2022 note that I don't solely rely upon counters to deal with early threats. I have Harm's Way to deal with that as my main instance. So, I think something that I need to do, as you've pointed out, is to work a way to deal with fast tempo aggro. If I am facing a more graduated deck, one that uses bigger creatures, the bigger they are, the harder they fall, at least against my deck. The problem I have now is that I have 74 cards in my deck, and I don't think I want to remove anything else.
December 19, 2022 12:12 p.m.
Daveslab2022 also Spellweaver Eternal is a good card against small creatures as a way to deal damage to the player and block creatures. I just need a way to keep my creatures alive, and the only card I knew of is Basri Ket. If I can give my cards indestructible, specifically Spellweaver Eternal and Boros Reckoner, then I can redirect and deal damage to the player over and over. This is a main strategy I was thinking of. Just need help with a card that makes them indestructible or something like that.
December 19, 2022 12:22 p.m.
Dead_Blue_ says... #26
I know very little about Akido in MTG but I think you would be better to build Skred Red instead
Basically you play a bunch of Snow Covered Mountains and then use Skred on your own Boros Reckoner to deal lethal
December 19, 2022 12:30 p.m.
I just added back Gideon's Sacrifice which works with Boros Reckoner for dealing with a lot of creatures that swing all at once. I've actually won games this way, as most people don't expect it, and they all swing at once to deal fastest the most damage with a bunch of tokens or aggro.
December 19, 2022 12:36 p.m.
Know that this isn't a toolbox deck. I can't answer every threat, due to my manabase as well as my archetype. Just trying to make do with what cards I have.
December 19, 2022 12:42 p.m.
Crow_Umbra says... #29
Interesting. I thought Aikido, as a concept transposed from the martial arts style to MtG, was cards that use an opponent's damage and aggression against them in a defensive manner. IRL Aikido uses a lot of momentum redirection to nullify aggression.
So based on that something like Deflecting Palm is Aikido, but Spellweaver Eternal maybe isn't, because the Spellweaver is more proactive than defensive/reactive in its damage creation from both Prowess and Afflict.
Regardless, best of luck with your brewing.
December 19, 2022 12:59 p.m.
That is true, Crow-Umbra, although that is simply in the art, not actual bouts of versus. If you're an aikido practicioner, you have to take the advantage when you can to stop the aggressor. This means using their blocking against them. That's why people who have traditional aikido teachings tend to lose big time in UFC and whatnot, as they try to be too defensive and traditional.
December 19, 2022 1:11 p.m.
wallisface says... #31
9-lives addressing each of your comments in order:
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keeping in mind my list isa rough draft, it still is packed with a lot more win conditions than a typical control deck should have. Namely, Boros Reckoner+Blasphemous Act do massive damage, and then the game becomes fairly easy to close out with the various creature copy/steal spells.
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I’ve already explained multiple times why Ionize and Essence Backlash are terrible counterspells. The small amount of damage they deal doesn’t redeem them - they’re still heavily overcosted and too niche in application. Control decks win by controlling the board and then presenting a win condition when your opponent is low on resources. An extra 2-4 incidental damage won’t matter, especially when your opponent has been given soo much free-reign to do-what-they-want.
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the reason I suggested Control Magic over Clone is that Control Magic steals their creature, taking something from the opponent. Clone only copies it, meaning the opponent still has their stuff and you’ll likely end up just 1-for-1 trading thise creatures.
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Your quote of ”Also, the aikido archetype requires that I do damage whenever I counter. That's basically what aikido does.” is just plain wrong. That does not fit in with the glossary definition of the archtype provided above, nor does it fit-in with what actual Aikido lists (seen in edh) try to achieve. You’ve created your own warped definition of the term, and are now holding yourself ransom to it.
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your quote of ”Spellweaver Eternal is an aikido card because it does damage by blocking.” - not what the card does, not what Aikido decks in magic want to do.
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the land count in your deck is most-definitely too low, but i can see you’re not going to see reason here. Doing some stats using this site, with your current land count you’re going to miss playing your 3rd land on-time 45% of the time! You miss your 4th land 65% of the time.
December 19, 2022 2:23 p.m.
wallisface says... #32
I think the biggest issue you’re facing here is that you’re just bungling a bunch of cards together that you think fits a loose theme, instead of presenting a coherent strategy and working towards achieving that within your theme. Your deck is doing too many things at once and its going to make it a mess to play.
December 19, 2022 2:30 p.m.
If I don't follow your advice, don't chastise me for it. I have my own view of what this deck is to be and become. I don't care what some person said about what the archetype means. I am following the true aikido archetype as I have envisioned it.
You really think I'll have enough creatures on the field to play Blasphemous Act?
"opponent low on resources"? They probably would have at least 4 lands down and each of their spells countered, but that doesn't change the fact that they have 4 lands and other cards they can use. Again, you can't win a game by countering solely. You can try to get their health points down, but that's exactly what I'm doing with my counters. I know that Control Magic is more useful, but like I said, I'm using cards that I already have.
December 19, 2022 6:04 p.m.
wallisface I don't mind that this deck won't be competitive or win every game. Just to have fun with an archetype that I find extremely appealing.
December 19, 2022 6:05 p.m.
wallisface says... #35
I’m not suggesting you need to follow any one persons advice. I’m just giving you my thoughts, as someone who plays a lot of competitive Modern. You’re not being forced to use any of that advice, and what you do with it is entirely up to you.
December 19, 2022 6:15 p.m.
9 two things.
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There is an excellent website called scryfall.com you can search for anything in the world of magic. You can even usually type scryfall into google and what you want to search for and itll spit out what you want to search. Like this
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Have you actually tried playing this deck? I tried helping you in the past when you only had 64 cards in the deck now your up to 80 and still have not added more lands which is something everyone who looked at that deck said. If everyone is giving you the same advice you should probably take it.
Daveslab2022 says... #2
So the phrase you’re looking for is “whenever you draw a card”
There are 30 cards with this effect:
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=%20%5B%22whenever%20you%20draw%20a%20card%22%5D
None of them are insanely powerful, as you draw a card every turn. So they can’t do insane stuff just for drawing 1 card. So this type of effect is typically underwhelming.
December 17, 2022 1:11 a.m.