Well, I suppose some clarification is in order.

I wasn't arguing for the continuing placement of Sliver Queen in tier two, per se--rather, I was merely pointing out that she's more competitive than Sliver Overlord. Granted, you never mentioned me by name, but I was involved in the discussion, nonetheless.

Also, Mono-Green stax? What's next? Mono-White Mill? Mono-Red Discard? Mono-black Lands? Mono-blue Burn?

Yes mono green stax probably won't work. Green does not have any stax cards except for Hall of Gemstone and has no way of tutoring for artifacts.

To be fair mono red can do a fair bit of discard thanks to the 16393727 wheels that they have haha.

/joking

Leinahtan the reason you play Sidisi, Brood Tyrant is because unlike The Mimeoplasm Sidisi doesn't make you a target the second she comes into play. People often overlook her because she is a facilitator general. That and some people seem to think that zombie tribal is a thing... Even so, her zombies are slightly better than you might think since they buff Craterhoof Behemoth's effect and are useful fodder for cards like Dread Return. She can more than hold her own at most competitive tables if you run a creature combo reanimator build around some combination of mike+trike, Necrotic Ooze and Deadeye Navigator + Palinchron . However, she usually wins with Craterhoof Behemoth. Her casting cost is also ideal for Birthing Pod since you can pod her to find an answer to most board states (ex. Ixidron; Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Acidic Slime etc.). In playstyle she is similar to Meren of Clan Nel Toth, despite their abilities being essentially the opposite from one another. They both utilize graveyard shenanighans and have similar win conditions. Meren's ability is better, but slower and easier to disrupt since you actually need Meren to live a turn or two. Also the power that blue adds to a midrange reanimator combo deck cannot be understated. These factors make an optimized Sidisi deck slightly more powerful than meren in my estimation and Meren is generally considered a strong tier 2 general. With regard to combos, She does produce infinite tokens with Mesmeric Orb something that self untaps like Basalt Monolith and a card like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth.

I currently am working on a Sidisi deck where I run Meren and Ezuri. Ezuri to get exp from sidisi' zombies and then land a Meren and go to end step to reanimate a kill condition.

It works well so far. I lean pretty heavily on Jarad but the grimgrin+bloodline+necrotic ooze combo also does a fair bit of work.

I believe Sidisi Brood's main appeal is her superior Hermit Druid combo. Her ability to generate sac fodder makes Dread Return a safer option, and gives her more food for Diabolic Intent and Birthing Pod. The Druid combo is a fairly standard Return into Laboratory Maniac and flashing Deep Analysis that can go off for 3 mana, which is an upgrade over Mimeoplasm's 6-mana Druid combo (which occasionally doesn't kill all 3 opponents). She's for sure not as strong as Plasm overall, and she runs a similar build, but again, that is not a strong enough reason alone to be written off. Except for 5C commanders that bring absolutely nothing to the table, similar decks with different commanders should not immediately be immediately invalidated. That leads to inaccuracies.

Alrigt, I suppose I stand corrected. [Excuse]! I'd actually like to see an optimized list for Sidisi. It would be interesting to look at. Sorry, I suppose.

Also, the mono-green stax isn't meant to be that strong, just a challenge from a friend who wanted me to build a stax deck in every color. I built 8.5 Tails, Arcum, Kothophed, Daretti, and Freyalise. Mono-white and mono-green were tough, due to the lack of relevant generals. They aren't tier 2, but they're fine... I guess. Sorry for getting people confused.

No offense taken Leinahtan. Noone can be well versed in all playstyles or commanders. I was actually planning on making an optimized list for Sidisi in the next week or so. I recently built a deck for her and have played her alot lately, but my current deck is toned down quite a bit (no infinite combos; suboptimal landbase etc.) in an attempt to appease my meta. Ill post it once I finish my cutthroat list to get some feedback.

All good. I didn't mean to come across as antagonistic or anything. Just trying to clear things up. I may have gotten a little disgruntled because the argument "Commander A is slightly stronger, and runs about the same strategy as Commander B, so B is trash" has come up quite a bit. Pity there's no easy way to set a short reminder that both gets the point across and doesn't sound silly.

A friend linked me a fairly optimized Sidisi Brood deck about a month ago. It's not perfected, but if you're wondering how Sidisi more or less performs, it's an alright place to start. link

Did tappedout get hacked by some trickster programmer? All the card tags have been bonkers

Leinahtan The best mono-green stax commander is Titania, so you in a roundabout way answered your own query. And she doesn't only benefit from lands that sac themselves, but cards like Sylvan Safekeeper, Natural Balance, and Harrow that are already fine on their own but play up in a Titania shell. I have no idea whether she's actually tier 2 if built properly or not (I run her, but an intentionally suboptimal build to fit my playgroup and I don't play the Stax stuff) but there's definitely more to her than getting a 5/3 just for cracking fetchlands.

As for Reaper King and Sliver Queen, they are where they are because they are often used as generals for Hermit Druid combo and as such are worse than Scion but still fine. The differences are playing a couple cards that synergize with them (Mana Echoes for Queen, Conspiracy for King) instead of the backup win-con dragon package that Scion lists play.

Good morning everyone! So I read through the last 30 comments and if everyone is ok with this, here are the changes I would do:

• Ruhan of the Fomori tier 5 -> tier 4

• Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer tier 5 -> tier 3

• Bruna, Light of Alabaster and Uril The Mist Stalker tier 2 -> tier 3. I know they are strong, but since they are voltron generals and they basically rely on combat samage to kill, they are not the best competitive choices. Even if there is a lot of protection available, a table of 4 will have enough ways to get around.

• Ezuri, Claw of Progress tier 2 -> tier 3

• Memnarch tier 2 -> tier 3. Way too slow for tier 2 in my opinion.

• Reaper King tier 2 -> tier 3. I know, he is a 5c general, and his ability is good, but I have yet to see an optimized list... The strongest I have seen was a changeling deck, and it is quite easy to get rid of the king, and the rest of the deck is meh. Not the best 5c in my opinion, he should go down.

• Ezuri, Renegade Leader could be our next du=iscussion subject. He is good enough in multiplayer to stay tier 2? There are other better mono-green elfball commanders, and he requires us to go all in, so we would need to kill all the others at the same time... Should he go down to 3???

NarejED Sleazebag Ohthenoises sonnet666 what do you think?

I'd say Ezuri Renegade is the next strongest mono green commander after Yisan. I would for sure drop Omnath and Titania first.

i think that both ezuri's should stay tier 2.

If your demoting Ezuri, Claw of Progress, then it would be somewhat ridiculous to keep Ezuri, Renegade Leader in tier 2.

I don't know about the rest of you but with everyone spamming change suggestions and suggestion refutations I think we need a more organized and simple system to make it easier to know what the majority of this community wants changed. After all, isn't this supposed to be a democratic list? I recently suggested a voting system which only 1 person responded to that I feel can solve what I think is a problem with this list.

I'd leave Uril in T2. I've been on the fence about Bruna, but having piloted her, a version that's naturally difficult to interact with seems fantastic.

Ezuri, Claw of Progress also seems like he should stay in T2, he has an infinite turns combo that's tutor-able, and an infect backup strategy that is surprisingly fast.

Everyone always gets hung up on the tribal aspect of Reaper King. I don't think that's the best way to play him anyway. Just drop him and follow him up with a Rite of Replication or Blade of Selves, you'll blow up half the board. I haven't seen an optimized list either, but I think one that favored that as plan A would probably be T2 worthy.

On the topic of Reaper King. You don't build your deck even remotely around him.

You build a generic competetive combo deck that also happens to run Rite of Replication or Conspiracy for an alternate win.

As for the Ezuri's, I think they both deserve T2, but I don't know much about these decks.

About the new card:

This is easily Tier 2, right? If not Tier 1. It's like the dream stax commander. And it's a frog.

I'm not sure.

He's fantastic with Crucible of Worlds and fetchlands, but without crucible are you really going to have enough lands in hand to keep him from cutting into your mana base or killing himself? You could up the land count, but then you're buying a card advantage engine by decreasing the benefit you get from that card advantage engine, which isn't a great play.

He could be T2, but I'm going to reserve judgement until someone comes out with a working decklist.

Oh, and for the new commanders my estimation is as such:

Archangel Avacyn --> T4. I've been building with her, and I'd like to rank her higher because she's the first R/W commander that effectively enables a R/W control strategy (and is really cool while doing it), but in the end she's still in the weakest color identity there is and doesn't generate card advantage to mitigate that.

Odric, Lunarch Marshal --> T4. He's pretty cool (Concerted Effort on legs is nice), but he's still mono-white and doesn't actually provide an advance to aggro strategy the way Jazal Goldmane does.

Olivia, Mobilized for War --> T3. She's in a weak color identity, but even ignoring the fact that she makes tribal vampire effects playable, she works as great R/B reanimator general, which is a powerful enough strategy on it's own that any commander that contributes to it in a meaningful way is going to make it to T3. Plus the haste effect comes down early enough to actually matter.

Sigarda, Heron's Grace --> T3. Good color identity, token strategy, hexproof, critical mass of commander playable humans, ways to make her a human; all around this comes out to a pretty good deck. I'm not seeing anything outright special about it, but it's good enough overall to be in T3 I think.

I'm seeing Tier 3 at best for Gitrog. Unless someone finds a way to break it with an efficient 1-2 card combo, its doomed to mediocrity.

I mean, it feels like a fantastic stax commander. Generating advantage just by playing Magic, and the extra land is a nice bonus. Not to mention the shenanigans he can pull off with dredge.

The best stax commanders are ones that benefit you, allowing you to break symmetry on stax effects. Like how Brago resets mana rocks to get around Static Orb, or Selvala taps for lots of mana.

The idea is that your commander is mitigating the symmetrical effect so well that it doesn't bother you as much as it bothers your opponents.

With Gitrog he's adding a tax on (just) your resources, and the only mitigating factor is the extra land ability, which has to be built around.

He could wind up being really great, but making him consistent is going to be very, very tricky.

I am currently working on a Gritog list since I saw him, and I think it will be possible to break him with dredge and discard engines, like lothlet troll, to dredge and discard. It is gonna be my next deck (all hail the great frog lord), so I will try to break it as much as I can, and goung to write a primer. He does seems tier 2 to me though.

You simply don't put a card on the tier list until you have seen results. Putting a card up the second you see him is unreasonable.