Since I can't access the Lore Forum, I'm talking colors here.

General forum

Posted on June 17, 2019, 3:05 p.m. by BMHKain

Izzet League + Selesnya Conclave = No.

Gruul Clans + Orzhov Syndicate = No.

Azorius Senate + Golgari Swarm = No.

Boros Legion + House of Dimir = No.

Simic Combine + Cult of Rakdos = No.

After the hell on earth w/ such stupidity about this topic in the past, I still wondered if 2 Guilds of Ravnica w/ entirely different colors can co-exist w/ one another. But that's not the only reason I'm making this thread here. I wanted to know every Color Combination, & their traits, personalities, basically anything that makes them who they are. Before I get to even the first part of this topic, I'm getting over the 2nd so my personal struggle can be focused on their own.

Here are the color combos I wanted to know their traits, personalities, Pros/Cons, etc. This is because I wanted to do some actual video content on Youtube someday aside from gameplay recording on my crap PC:

Mono Color: : Peace, law, structured, selflessness, equality

: Knowledge, deceit, cautious, deliberate, perfecting

: Power, self-interest, death, sacrifice, uninhibited

: Freedom, emotion, active, impulsive, destructive

: Nature, wildlife, connected, spiritual, tradition

: Nihilistic, Devouring, Unnatural, Annihilative, Incomprehensible

: WIP (Yes, Arcum's Astrolabe , & Icehide Golem has this as a mana cost now, time to find the same requirements for this color, as is all other combos.)

Azorius Senate : Thoughtfulness, Emotionless, Perceptive, Order, (Some word meaning "To force its Rules & Ways upon all those around them."), Progress (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

House of Dimir : Nonconformity, Revisionary, Enigmatic, (Some word that Also uses Omniscience & Omnipotence in the same Definition), Deceptive, Domination (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

Cult of Rakdos : (Some term meaning "To care less about the needs of the group."), Self-Cautiousness, Misery, Anarchy, Hedonistic, Self-Indulgent (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

Gruul Clans : Savage, Immediate, (Some word that means: "They figure out what they want (albeit in different ways)"), Unpredictability, Brutality, Impulse (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

Selesnya Conclave : Community, Religion, Supportive, Morality, Importance, Unity (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

Golgari Swarm : (Cycle of Life in one Word.), (Some term about Reanimation of the Dead, but a Personality Trait.), Empowerment, Adversity, Ruthlessness, Resilience (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

Boros Legion : Improvisation, Driven, (Whatever one word describes: A word that describes "Those who would die for their cause.") (Whatever One Word for Military Pride.), Conviction (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

Simic Combine : Evolution, Facilitation, Change, Adaptation, Observation, Curiosity (Still working on keeping it to 5 terms; unsure what to remove...)

Orzhov Syndicate : Oblation, Genocide, Spiritual, (Tough Love in one word, please...), Hierarchy

Izzet League : Passion, Creativity, Thought, (Some word that combines both Knowledge & Freedom.), Trickery

Esper , Grixis , Jund , Naya , Bant

Abzan Houses , Jeskai Way , Sultai Brood , Mardu Horde , Temur Frontier .

Yidris : Has an utter disregard for consequences. Its actions are direct and destructive, but it still can create and carry out a plan--spies, assassinations, rabble-rousing, and spreading anarchy all need patience and preparation. It just doesn't care at all who or what gets blown up, sent to another dimension, or turned inside out and upside down as a result of its plan, as long as it comes out on top. It's more about complete domination than mindless destruction. Sometimes has an Outlandish imagination.

Saskia : Can be, if not welcoming, at least tolerant of others. It definitely believes in strength by force and might makes right, but it also believes in expansion. If you're willing to work with, or at least stay out of its way, you're good.

Kynaios and Tiro : Enthusiastic, hope, joie de vivre, and collaboration. It spreads the wealth and love in good times and is the first to offer help in bad times. It will sometimes be a little shortsighted and trusting.

Atraxa : Growth with purpose. It has a goal, Anything that doesn't contribute to that goal in question is ignored or removed.

Breya : Are problem-solvers and methodical. It finds and applies unconventional answers to problems, and keeps those solutions available for future use, although it can occasionally overlook or reject the simplest answer.

& "Domain" : Generalist, Philosophical, Balanced, Divine, (WIP)

Personality Traits for 4-Color Identities are credited by legendofa; though I might need some more simplification on exactly 5 traits if you don't mind; I'm not original enough to use only one trait once. :/


I'd like as much information as I can get for all there colors in terms of representation, meaning, & beliefs.

For now, because I'm "Blocked from the Lore Forum", I'm doing this topic here. So based on such a topic as 4 color Alliances of two entirely different guilds, both in color, & purpose. What you may have noticed is that one color is missing from all 5 Guild duos that hate each other the most. In spite of that, maybe we can incorporate that missing color, & make the situation at least a little better. So let's start w/ what we know:

Izzet League & Selesnya Conclave Lack

Gruul Clans & Orzhov Syndicate Lack

Azorius Senate & Golgari Swarm lack

Boros Legion & House of Dimir Lack .

Simic Combine & Cult of Rakdos Lack .

Those colors would make both enemy guilds have at least a minor alliance; so here's an idea that will (NOT) work; just incorporate those colors, & see who better matches up w/ who. This means:

Izzet League w/ (REDACTED; Both allies are rejected. Terminating Program.)

One Guild was left behind; Golgari Swarm If anyone wants to pick this up, just do your research on the 4-Color 2 Guild Alliances. This is your homework, aside from the obvious already mentioned elsewhere:

1: Azorius Senate:

*Orzhov: "Their financial-regulation lobbyists are an important source of revenue for us, but of course we maintain absolute objectivity. Their customs are macabre and their methods draconian, but as long as they operate within the law, it's not our concern." (Allies via Bond of Discipline .)

*Dimir: "Our nemesis. Outwardly, we must continue to deny their existence, even if the rest of Ravnica does not. Privately, we must thwart them at every turn and stop their operations in infancy when possible. No other guild threatens us so directly."

*Izzet: "A valuable asset. The Izzet League is like a secondary Lyev Column, carrying out enactments in ways the Senate cannot. They also probe the limitations of our laws in interesting, non-malicious ways."

*Rakdos: "These poor souls are beyond help. The best we can do is prevent their overreach and to help their victims. The day will come when society at large finds them to be superfluous."

*Golgari: "We understand the Swarm least of all guilds. They serve an indispensable purpose and yet share not one iota of ideology with us. Our policy is one of cautious détente, but we would like to understand better the rules with which they self-govern." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Gruul: "Our greatest challenge and greatest opportunity. When order takes hold in Gruul lands, the unguilded there become the strongest evangelists for the rule of law. We must never allow Gruul holdings to lay fallow."

*Boros: "When we have the ear of the Legion, they are instrumental in executing operations that the Senate cannot or will not undertake. When the Legion becomes the tool of another guild, we have no greater enemy."

*Selesnya: "The Conclave generally obeys the law and keeps to itself. In time it could become a threat, but for now it is harmless—if not an ally."

*Simic: "This new manifestation of the Combine must be watched closely. We admire its rigor but cannot allow savage, anarchic wilderness too great a berth." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

2: Orzhov Syndicate:

*Azorius: "They worship process more than purpose. But we admire their devotion to strict order; it is the first brick in building an empire." (Allies via Bond of Discipline .)

*Dimir: "The Dimir are our mirror in some ways, and therefore a threat to all we attempt to create. We must see them join our hierarchy or see them destroyed."

*Izzet: "Excited children who have lost their way. They could be useful pawns if they got a lesson in loyalty."

*Rakdos: "A danger to themselves and others. A threat to longevity and wealth. They must be controlled."

*Golgari: "Death is not the end; on this we agree. But bugs and fungus do not an empire make. They are like us without hygiene, wealth, or self-respect."

*Gruul: "The Gruul are a cautionary tale. They are what become of every culture without strong leadership." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Boros: "The Boros are limited in their vision but useful in their willingness to execute. Their passions are the strings by which they may be played."

*Selesnya: "They share our vision for a unified world, but their dryads would sacrifice valuable institutions at the false altar of nature." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

*Simic: "Their roots reach deep into history. But if their interest stops at extending life, they're missing at least half the story."

3: House of Dimir:

*Azorius: "What a waste of knowledge's true power. Let them shuffle their papers some more."

*Orzhov: "Their ostentatious structures are a façade for their rotten, tiny minds."

*Izzet: "They are true seekers of knowledge, but their tools are chaotic and lacking in direction." (Allies via Bond of Insight .)

*Rakdos: "Their flesh is willing but their minds are weak." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

*Golgari: "Take our corpses and our trash, and don't forget to take your stink with you."

*Gruul: "Whenever we need a riot, a scapegoat, or both, the Gruul are always so doltishly accommodating."

*Boros: "Anything so predictable can be destroyed or altered with a minimum of forethought." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Selesnya: "As soon as we can infiltrate the Worldsoul, they will serve us as no other guild could."

*Simic: "Their minds are alien but their inquisitiveness intrigues us. We must find a way in."

4: Izzet League

*Azorius: "The Azorius freely create rules for everything but freedom."

*Orzhov: "Progress means taking risks. But when you gamble with the Orzhov, you always wager more than coin."

*Dimir: "The less we see of the Dimir, the more we know they monitor us." (Allies via Bond of Insight .)

*Rakdos: "Steer clear of these senseless riot-fiends. The Rakdos are like a party to which all of your body parts might not be invited."

*Golgari: "They are as bottomless as death. If you follow an ant long enough you will find its nest, but the nest is only the tiniest hint of the colony that lies below."

*Gruul: "Thanks to the Gruul we no longer have to wait for natural disasters to have our laboratories destroyed. We rely on our careful protections from them, or else they would destroy all that we would hope to create."

*Boros: "Every time I'm on the verge of creating a little explosion that levels a city block, or a spell that rips a hole in reality and space time, the Boros show up to spoil the fun." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

*Selesnya: "Selesnyan zealots run with dogs and worship figments of the past. They would be wiser to embrace the wonders of the future." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Simic: "I can admire the inventiveness of the Simic, but the product of what they create lacks soul and fire. They feign to tinker with life, yet they lack the inspiration to breathe true life into their inventions."

5: Cult of Rakdos:

*Azorius: "How do you make an Azorius dance? Rip out his spine and make him into a marionette."

*Orzhov: "The only thing worse than a bunch of rules is a bunch of idiots with the power to force those rules on others. Power to Rakdos!"

*Dimir: "Not afraid to get their hands dirty, but they need to learn to enjoy life more." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

*Izzet: "Too stuffy, but making bigger and better explosions is a reasonable way to spend your time."

*Golgari: "Anything that spends so much time around fungus should be put out of its misery." (Allies via Bond of Revival .)

*Gruul: "Our poor, stupid cousins. There's more to life than scraps of leather and hunks of flesh. Or at least, more fun things than they use them for."

*Boros: "The only thing angels are good for is target practice."

*Selesnya: "Pampered dryads pretending to be selfless puts Rakdos in a very killing mood."

*Simic: "Freaky brainiacs that mess with nature for all the wrong reasons." (Biggest Enemy.)

6: Golgari Swarm

*Azorius: "To the Azorius, we are background processes. We are stomach sounds and effluvia. Yet we are the foundation on which their power rests." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Orzhov: "The Orzhov are despicable ghosts, always seeking to circumvent the cycles that welcome us back to the loam. Their arrogance in seeking power over decay can only last so long."

*Dimir: "The Dimir share our tunnels and mine our secrets. They believe they rule the undercity, but they only rule those who care for possessions or status."

*Izzet: "The Izzet's methods stink of societal progress; they're ignorant of the cycles they destroy. But they manage the city as we do, providing useful magics to maintain the structures beneath the structures."

*Rakdos: "The Rakdos understand the proximity of death, but seek to hasten its cycle for petty ends. What the demon destroys, we nurture back to life again." (Allies via Bond of Revival .)

*Gruul: "The Gruul are our brethren in the untamed wilds of the city, but they lack the vision to perceive the greater cycles at work." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

*Boros: "The Boros speak a language we will never understand. Their militant dedication to words and slogans confuses and disturbs us."

*Selesnya: "The Selesnya strive to respect nature as we do, and their devotion to living systems is commendable. But they are night-blind necrophobes, useless in the face of unvarnished death."

*Simic: "The Simic have spent generations scraping at the edges of a truth that is plain to any worm."

7: Gruul Clans

*Azorius: "Our world is diseased and the Azorius are the plaguebearers. Once they are destroyed, Ravnica will regain its primal essence."

*Orzhov: "A guild of ghosts and liars. Best not to have pockets for them to pick." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Dimir: "Weaklings clad in menacing shadow. Hold the Dimir up to the light and you'll see them for the pale, scrawny wretches they truly are."

*Izzet: "While the Izzet fiddle with their theories and cower at the feet of a dragon, the strong carve up the world."

*Rakdos: "The Rakdos know fear is power. They hold no power over the Gruul."

*Golgari: "The Golgari know that to tear down this city, you start at the foundation. But their hearts have been deceived by whispers of power." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

*Boros: "We respect the Boros! So their heads adorn our pikes instead of plugging the gutters." (Allies via Bond of Passion .)

*Selesnya: "A Selesnyan would coddle a wolf, teach it to fetch sticks, and call it a dog. We prefer to starve the wolf, let it hunt for its food, and make a stronger wolf."

*Simic: "The Simic enjoy twisting nature, but they will not enjoy it when nature twists back."

8: Boros Legion:

Azorius: "Legalistic, arrogant pontificators who use law as a weapon to wield power they don't deserve."

Orzhov: "Selfish pretenders with no sense of justice or righteousness."

Dimir: "Immoral snakes who need to be exterminated for the good of the community." (Biggest Enemy.)

Izzet: "As long as their spellcraft is controlled, it can be beneficial to society." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

Rakdos: "Immoral rats who need to be exterminated for the good of the community."

Golgari: "An unfortunate guild that serves a necessary function for the good of all."

Gruul: "Lost souls who haven't been exposed to true righteousness but will embrace Boros ideals if provided the right opportunity." (Allies via Bond of Passion .)

Selesnya: "While their devotion to their community is noble, they are mistaken about what a perfect society should look like."

Simic: "A wasteful guild preoccupied with arcane, meaningless experimentation."

9: Selesnya Conclave:

*Azorius: "One day, they will free their minds from foolish, external laws and learn to obey the voice of the Conclave."

*Orzhov: "They are lost in a lifeless prison of their own individual ambitions." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze .)

*Dimir: "A ghastly horde of disconnected murderers who never fully tasted life's true gifts."

*Izzet: "Tinkerers and meddlers under the control of one oppressive ego. Doomed for failure." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Rakdos: "Until they submit, they must be contained."

*Golgari: "These rot-grovelers could stand to learn more from our ways instead of mucking about with their bugs and death."

*Gruul: "Such a waste… and a smelly, unreasonable, destructive waste at that."

*Boros: "They shall tire of their fighting and, when they do, the gentle embrace of Selesnya will be waiting."

*Simic: "Warpers of life and nature whose downfall will be their lack of community and compassion." (Allies via Bond of Flourishing .)

10: Simic Combine:

*Azorius: "The Senate is well intentioned and far-sighted. But its insistence on caution and control paralyzes it. This is unfortunate, because the surface world needs its leadership, even if we do not." (Allied with them during Dragon's Maze

*Orzhov: "No other guild poses so great a threat to us and our mission. The Orzhov replace intellect with obedience and strength with money. They are the greatest enemies of nature and Ravnica's people."

*Dimir: "Such a disappointing waste of knowledge and insight. They do nothing but transform information into a currency with which to buy power and privilege. In time, life will conquer their deathly, shallow machinations."

*Izzet: "Their efforts are to be admired and learned from, but their disregard for natural systems reveals the short-sightedness of their thinking. Life will in time devise smarter solutions than the Izzet could ever concoct."

*Rakdos: "We must strive not to understand them, but to understand why they are allowed to persist—what needs they fulfill for the citizenry. In the meantime, treat them as rabid animals. Keep your distance." (Biggest Enemy.)

*Golgari: "If they desired allies, we would be their closest. But they focus too much on the viciousness of natural cycles, even turning against their own. They have no patience for anything that doesn't yield power."

*Gruul: "Their base desires keep them at the fringes. Our patient, measured adaptation will prevent us from suffering the same fate. When they come to us for aid, we will not turn them away."

*Boros: "A dangerous combination of emotion and organization. Whether acting of their own accord or under the influence of an external force, the Legion turns its fears and desires into effective aggression."

*Selesnya: "The Conclave understands holism but impedes progress with a layer of mysticism. We admire their collectivism but not their dogmatism. We strive to retain specialization rather than suppressing it." (Allies via Bond of Flourishing .)

I'll finish this in due time. For now, I've somethings to cut... All 90 Quotes from all 10 Guilds have been added; all of Which I obtained from The Planesalker's Guide to (Return to RAVNICA Block), so at least I have evidence this time. The result in the end? All ten guilds would have to have different 4 color identities, two guilds that are the least of enemies, but have to work together w/ many common foes. Keep this in mind & To Heart.

This is how it will work: Each of the 5 Bonds of WAR will each have alliances of other kinds, & as much enemies. The goal of this is to work with the Bonds, & compare them to other bonds & see if it's still possible to do a 4c Double Guild Alliance outside their respective Bond. But I'l do this aother time, so...

WIP (For now..)

But I still want answers for these questions regardless:

  1. What are all the personality traits for all color combos (Unless you can't find any for Snow Mana.)

  2. Can someone unlock the Lore section for me, please? I see nothing but page number selection.

All that set, I think it's time to end a debate, & inspire the ideas for a Logo of mine...

Thanks for reading.

legendofa says... #2


-self-improvement-- wants to discover the full potential of everything, wants to improve itself

-hidden knowledge and secrets-- want to keep their plans and actions hidden, seeks information

-determination and patience, attrition warfare-- is resilient and difficult to stop once it gets going, makes long-term plans

-resourcefulness--mechanically, this color set will use its hand, creatures, library, life total, graveyard, opponent's graveyard, opponent's library, literally anything.

: -fanaticism, vengefulness, military strength, authority through fear--I haven't thought this one out quite the same way, but those are some of the themes on cards of this color set.

June 17, 2019 4:10 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #3

This thread was moved to a more appropriate forum (auto-generated comment)

June 17, 2019 6 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #4

Personally, I am not a fan of the idea there are specific identities for multicoloured combinations. Each individual colour has a well-defined set of themes and components to its identity, making it fairly easy to identify “that trait is Red-aligned.” However, while the colours are defined, they are not singularly defined - there are multiple themes within that colour’s identity.

Let us take White for a second. At its core, White is concerned with both divine law and mundane order and solidarity. These are related to one another, so it’s easy to see why both are White, but very distinct.

Therein lies the problem with defining a singular identity for any multicoloured pair - each colour is complex in its own right, such that any pairing will have multiple interpretations.

Using the White example above, let’s say each colour has two distinct archetypes (it’s probably a bit more complicated than that, but Wizards published a graphic a while ago showing they had two for each colour, so two will work for our illustrative purposes).

This means each two-colour pairing has four different interpretations; eight for three colour pairs. Even more, since you can have adjust the relative strengths of the colours - for example, even using the same archetypes for each colour, you’ll have a very different experience if White is primary, than if White is a secondary colour.

Ultimately, I think many people put too much emphasis on the pairings, through the lens of what we have seen, rather on what the pairings can be. We can fall into a trap of thinking “Golgari means what it does on Ravnica” rather than “what could Black and Green do?”

June 17, 2019 6:40 p.m.

legendofa says... #5

cdkime I agree that there aren't specific identities for each color set, any more than there are for each individual color. But just as each individual color has its focuses, strengths, and weaknesses, each color set will have the same. Mechanically, has regular access to lifelink and has regular access to vigilance, but I suspect the next card to be printed with this combination will be rather than . Philosophically, has much variety than what the Golgari Swarm provides, but its philosophy of resilience, the cycles of birth, death, and rebirth, and the more subtly lethal aspects of nature (poison, disease, corrosion) are well-defined and characteristic of that color set.

June 17, 2019 8:29 p.m.

Boza says... #6

cdkime “Golgari means what it does on Ravnica” rather than “what could Black and Green do?”

This really reminds me of This article, question 28. Can you answer it?

We try to avoid making two-color cards where the card could be done as a monocolor card in one of the two colors. Given that, suppose you have a two-color 4/4 creature with flying and vigilance (and no other abilities). What of the following color combinations would be the best choice for this card?

People were outraged that the answer was actually...

Think about it! Show

After 9 sets of Ravnica, the color pairs in MTG are now synonimous with the guilds, which is actively bad for design.

June 18, 2019 5:05 a.m.

Boza says... #7

BTW, I encourage you to take the test in the article I linked. I scored 63/75 failing all the questions about rarity and several of the more tricky ones. But it was a fun exercise for an hour and helped me shaarpen the design skills.

June 18, 2019 7:03 a.m.

Caerwyn says... #8


The "characteristic" traits you have listed for Green-Black are the characteristic traits of the Golgari Swarm, but not necessary components of a Green-Black identity. Green-Black does not have to be focused on a life-death cycle; does not have to be focused on subtle lethal elements; does not have to be focused on resilience.

We can easily imagine a creature motivated by a selfish desire (Black) to control nature (Green). This hypothetical creature is firmly in Green-Black's identity, but need not have any interest in life-death cycles or subtle lethal elements. Interestingly, you could probably use this basic pattern to create a motivation-shifted version of the Simic Combine (motivation for improving nature comes from Black's selfishness, rather than Blue's innovation) or Gruul Clans (desire to become the apex predator comes from selfishness rather than Red's lack of inhibitions as combined with Green's instinct).

To reiterate my earlier point, Magic was designed around the individual colours, which are necessarily complex to ensure the breadth of possible motivations and experiences can be covered with only five elements. Any definition of "here's what Green-Black" can be will ultimately boil down to a matrix listing every possible combination of Green and Black's individual identities--which just comes back to thinking in terms of the individual colours themselves.

Boza - I'll have to check that out at some point. Sounds interesting.

June 18, 2019 11:14 a.m.

legendofa says... #9

cdkime The creature with a selfish desire to control nature would be black-green, sure. But, if that creature was expressed as a card, how would it look mechanically? It's easy enough to come up with characters with goals, thoughts, and motivations. But, since M:tG is, fundamentally, a card game, each color needs to be represented mechanically, and the overlapping mechanics are where the philosophy lies.

I guess what I'm seeing in your example is a green character with a black motivation. I'm seeing a difference between "green and black philosophy" and "green/black philosophy." You can't break down the philosophy of Borborygmos into "this is his green part, and this is his red part." Also, Borborygmos portrays red-green differently from Xenagos, or Samut, or Radha. All of them have different philosophies, and take actions, consistent with red-green, but they are also readily distinguishable.

To make a food analogy, you start with flour and water. You can make a million different types of bread, but they're all still bread, and they're all different from wet flour.

I deeply disagree with the answer to the question Boza demonstrated. To check this, I ran a Gatherer search for multicolor cards (not just creatures) with the words "flying" and "vigilance." I found out that


I still want to take the test, and see what score I can get.

June 18, 2019 12:59 p.m.

Caerwyn says... #10

With evergreen mechanics you do run into issues, but I would submit the Ravnica guild abilities all do a great job capturing their representations of the colours, and the same could be done for any further type of representation.

I would also suggest you can break down Borborygmos - from Red he gets elements of anger and a propensity for action; from Green he gets a view of might makes right and a dislike of the civilised world.

The rest of your post goes directly to my point - the fact that Borborygmos is different from Xenagos who is different from Samut simply shows that multicoloured pairs are rather complex in their nuances, so it is harder to define a singular identity for the pair. Hence why it is helpful to break the pairs down to their prime factors (the colours) and analyse at that level.

Bread may be bread, but a tortilla is very, very different from a loaf of white bread.

June 18, 2019 1:22 p.m.

legendofa says... #11

I think we're more or less agreeing on the potential nuances of multicolor. My basic position is that multicolors can be defined just as well as single colors, and as more than the sum of their parent colors.

Helios is white. Elesh Norn is white. Ajani is white. They're all white, but they're the tortilla, sandwich bread, and pita of white. (Your choice for which one's which.) White includes fascism, military skill, order, and unity, but Ajani isn't exactly fascist, and Helios is more interested in making his champion than unifying everyone. I think we can agree on this.

All the colors, and their subsequent combinations, have a huge variety of potential nuances, but they're all distinct from each other, even between different amounts of coloredness. I don't see green/black as green + black, I see it as a unique collection of ideals, goals, beliefs, whatever I said up above.

Are all of these essentially green/black, as cards or characters?

Rhys the Exiled

Sapling of Colfenor

Nath of the Gilt-Leaf

Doran, the Siege Tower

I believe the character of Doran is unique in outlook from the others, and Rhys is green, with a black motivation, as well-represented by the cards.

June 18, 2019 2:16 p.m.

BMHKain says... #12

@Boza: Hmmm... Interesting link you put up. It's ironic I'm still doing the whole 4 color thing. I'd be more that happy to take the exam upon your Folly, the only obstacle getting in the way is my deckbuilding ideas; I already am trying to perfect Kruphix, God of Horizons Infinite , Finishing up Superfriends/Avengers all on my own, cEDH Boros (Yes, I'm still at it, & I will not cease.); even future plans include a Mono- Burn/Red Deck Wins deck that is viable compare to all other Burn decks. A possible Vorthos deck based upon a documentary running Kykar, Wind's Fury , a possible Stitcher Geralf deck, &, potentially, a More Powerful Mayael the Anima deck than ever before. Although these planes are for another time (& Place), there's just too much riding on my Avenger deck. I, mean, we got Golos, Tireless Pilgrim; & more crap for CORE 2020... Looks like I've a lot to do. But what to do about the color combinations? & Snow even if you can find stuff for the latter? I actually have plans to incorporate all traits in a logo of all things... X/

June 18, 2019 2:23 p.m.

Boza says... #13

legendofa that answer exhibits exactly what I described - preconceived notions based on existing cards preclude design from soaring.

For staters, lets define some things. Colors have access levels to evergreen abilities, generally based on their philosophies. They are called primary (the color or colors that most often get this ability), secondary (they get it occassionally) and tertiary (they get it very rarely). For example, black is primary in deathtouch, secondary in flying and tertiary in vigilance.

Now with that in mind, read carefully the question once again. It states that wotc does not like to make 2 color creatures that can be done in a single color - which makes sense, most players would read that and say "why does that need to be two colors".

So, when you are asked to make a specifically multicolor creature with those abilities, Serra Angel says - you cannot do that, since I am a white creature. This excludes a,b and c. For D, blue and black make sense for flying but not vigilance, as they are tertiary in vigilance. Plus, technically Serra Sphinx is a thing, although it is a color bend (stretching what a color is allowed to do, but Time Spiral had a lot of those).

However, black is secondary in flying and green is secondary in vigilance, thus that makes perfect sense as to why it is possible from a design standpoint.

On the other hand, the existence and cult status of Serra Angel perhaps prevents this from ever happening.

June 19, 2019 3:49 a.m.

legendofa says... #14

Boza Preconceived notions are what the game is built around, in the sense that the abilities are defined ideas. There isn't anything stopping the next set from having the following card, aside from preconceived notions:

Red Cancel


Counter target spell.

The only reason we don't see that is because of the defined ability (or preconceived notion) that red doesn't get hard counterspells. This ties back to what I said above--color combinations can defined in the same way as individual colors, with strengths, weaknesses, and things they don't get. Mechanically, gets tricks with deathtouch and indestructible, but doesn't get tricks with flying and vigilance. I see this as exactly parallel to gets tricks with hexproof and unblockable, but doesn't get tricks with first strike and menace.

Haste is secondary on green. There are no multicolor green cards with haste and first strike. Is this a lack of creativity, or a choice to have "haste+first strike" be a ability? I can even press deeper, and support a claim that "flying+hexproof" is primary in , secondary in , and secondary or tertiary in .

Basically, what it looks like you're calling uncreative design, I'm calling multicolor definition, in the same way that single colors are defined, and a flawed question. I see "flying+vigilance" as primary in and WG, secondary in and gb, and not at all a ability.

June 19, 2019 10:41 a.m.

legendofa says... #15

and . Not the links. Sorry about that.

June 19, 2019 10:57 a.m.

gb says... #16

Since i am unintentionally tagged, i will just say Reiterate can chaotically and essentially function as counter target spell for 1 rr.

June 19, 2019 11:08 a.m.

BMHKain says... #17

UPDATE: I appreciate your thoughts on Color Identity. As I'm trying to find actual alliances/Enemies for all Ten Guilds, All I wanted is the personality Traits of all color identities. I might have Mono Color (Besides Snow; may I ask why?) under control, but what about more than one? How do all that work? I'm actually curious beyond my wisdom on this. Does this apply to individual colors w/ some parts of others, or what? I'd really like some input please. :)

June 19, 2019 2:30 p.m.

BMHKain says... #18


I still wonder if anybody is even posting here anymore. After completing phase 2 of the Ravnica part of this topic, I just want to know each color identity order, & their traits, qualities, & other things in regards to those colors. I know it's hard work, but I've a lot of things to do in the first place; & one of them demands all the color combos (From 1-Symbol-to-5; & yes, you can also negate any suggestion for Snow Mana if there are no traits at all.). For now, I have Deck Building to waste. I pray someone responds. & if anyone here is versed in Color Combos, & their Personalities, & Traits, Please stand up as I'd like a chat with you, please. :)

June 21, 2019 12:40 p.m.

BMHKain says... #19


I'll do the other things about the Ten Guilds of Ravnica later. I still want to know any possible Personality Traits, & other info. Do I have to Remind you all what I'm looking for? Very well...

Mono , Mono , Mono , Mono , Mono , Mono , & Mono Snow (Yes, Arcum's Astrolabe has this as a mana cost now, time to find the same requirements for this color, as is all other combos.)

Azorius Senate , House of Dimir, , Cult of Rakdos , Gruul Clans , Selesnya Conclave , Golgari Swarm , Boros Legion , Simic Combine , Orzhov Syndicate , Izzet League .

Esper , Grixis , Jund , Naya , Bant

Abzan Houses , Jeskai Way , Sultai Brood , Mardu Horde , Temur Frontier .

Yidris , Saskia , Kynaios and Tiro , Atraxa , Breya

& "Domain"

I hope this helps as a Reminder. Now I need to get off my damned comp...

June 23, 2019 5:13 p.m.

legendofa says... #20

I'm still watching this, and I'll get to posting my thoughts soon. With all respect to Boza and cdkime (and I have a lot of respect for these two, more than most people I only know from online forums), I believe multicolor sets have uniquely definable identities in the same way as single colors, and I put my thoughts about and a little bit of up top.

But here's a little bit more for three-color:

: nature and the environment (basically anything covered by meteorology, biology, hydrology, geology, etc.), dynamic and rapid change, and hands-on knowledge and discovery.

: psychopathy, inventiveness, and unpredictability.

: tradition, conservativism, and physical and spiritual resilience.

June 23, 2019 6:02 p.m.

Boza says... #21


"There isn't anything stopping the next set from having the following card, aside from preconceived notions:

Red Cancel "

There is a difference between preconceived notions and what colors are allowed to do. Red counterspells or any other straight-up counters in other colors are not allowed mechanically. Countering is primary in blue and not present at all in the other colors. Here is the list of primary/secondary/tertiary evergreen abilities:

evergreen keywords by color

"I see "flying+vigilance" as primary in UW and WG, secondary in WR and GB, and not at all a GB ability."

Now, lets eximine that statement with the above list in mind. Both flying and vigilance are primary in white. If you had to design a multicolor creature that has both of them (which is the question), it cannot include white - MTG designers tend not to make multicolor creatures that can be done as a single color. Therefore, the only possibity out of those given is Black-green. Another possibility based on the list would be blue-green, but it is not listed as an option in the multiple choice.


I have to agree with cdkime that 3 color and above identities are muddy at best. Two colors are easily defined by their ideologies clashing and interacting. A three-way conflict is much more difficult to define.

For example - blue is about knowledge, green is about finding your place in the world. Thus, the easiest thing is to define UG as "nature vs nurture" conflict and go from there. This can be the Simic combine - engineering better beings - or something like Ixalan merfolk - a race of Warriors (green) and Sages (blue).

However, once you add red to make Temur from that, things get a little hard to define.

We have three different interactions - UR, UG, RG. Depending on which part of that you decide to play up, you get different flavors. For example:

  • An UR leaning Temur might be a race of Geomancers and Technomancers that try to improve the world through change through variously different means.

  • An UG leaning Temur can be about a tribe of researchers who have used technology to tame wild beasts to use in combat.

  • An RG leaning Temur can be fierce Warrior tribe very protective of their land, focusing on hunting and traditions to preserve their natural bounties. Or basically, the Temur clan on Tarkir.

There are many other ways, but the thing is - three colors are mostly defined by their main two colors.

Four colors are mostly defined by their lack of a color, but there is a reason why there are so few 4 color cards - it is very difficult to define something by what it is not. For example, Breya is non-green - she is a human artifact creature, that makes even more artifact creatures (so basically very blue) and her three abilities cover the other three colors. She is basically defined by how not-green she is, which is very difficult to do.

June 24, 2019 5:02 a.m.

BMHKain says... #22

Thanks guys. I completely understand the 3+ Color identities can be a real pain for a lot of reasons; I think I should lessen the load for myself abit, & do the 1 & 2-Color combinations myself; though nothing seems to exist for Snow Mana; much less a Mana Symbol to use here. I have other things to do though; & sadly, I'm facing Heaven's Great Punishment in another thread I made yesterday even.

Thanks again, guys. I suppose the only thing the Four-Color stuff involved is based on one quality entirely? for instance seems to be based on the idea of creativity as a whole... Might be wrong though...

June 24, 2019 8:50 a.m.

BMHKain says... #23

Actually I'll try my luck on the Four Colors myself: Starting w/ Yidris (), It lacks , which represents LAW & ORDER: MTG THE SERIES EDITION (XD), Discipline in a pinch, A sense of Morality in an Ethical Base (Thus Why One of Bruce Wayne/Batman's colors would be for an ethical code (He breaks.).), & is religious sometimes, always wants some kind of conformity, & needs to be Structured by governmental & Planning means. White seeks peace through Structure. All four other colors don't have this merit. In some way or another, any of the other 4 colors of the Pie will go berserk (Blue being too obsessed over Planning Reckt & Link (Second time I said that... Somebody make a second true sequel to Rozenkreuzstilette, please..), Black's Ambition, & Lust for Power would be the same as Oda Nogunaga's end result of his life, defeat. Red is the Rawest of Emotion of the five colors, & potentially the most Chaotic, & mentally out of it. & Green can go berserk at anytime like an actual animal w/ a bloodlust that murders others.). The reason why (Boros Legion) has Chaos in them at all, is part of the part of the Guild Identity.)

This is why if you don't include in this identity, all four colors will go Insane beyond a cure. Thus the reason whi it is dubbed as "Chaos"; sure, had some of the most evil characters in MTG, like Konda, Lord of Eiganjo , who intentionally pissed off a Kami-Sama named O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami by stealing their That Which Was Taken , & Heliod, God of the Sun congratulated Elspeth, Sun's Champion after she committed Deicide on Xenagos, the Reveler , who killed the previous God, & replaced (Gender is the same as UNDERTALE-Era Chara.) as a result, & was killed by her, & congratulated her by killing her with her own Godsend , & sent Erebos to watch her, making sure she never leaves, even if Ajani Goldmane can intervene. Aside from this, is the color identity of Pure CHAOS, Working Nickname?: Discord. Don't ask; he's like this in the Season 1 Finale (At least) in MLP FIM.

On the topic of Breya's Colors, Green wasn't there as it seems to focus on some kind of Animal Instinct, As they abhor impurities (Look at Vivien's Arkbow , idiot. & look at any Mono- Enchantment ever made, Baka Yarou!). Their tuning with nature would make me want to say: Where did we get metallic materials? Your Peat; which evolved to Slate. As Green in all Planes of the Multiverse knows nothing of Peat: (Here comes a Dictionary Section: a brown deposit resembling soil, formed by the partial decomposition of vegetable matter in the wet acidic conditions of bogs and fens, and often cut out and dried for use as fuel and in gardening.)

White has conformity, which can help in a big BIG project. Blue is basically the Brains of these four colors. Black has Ambition, & can even help with ideas that are sometimes SO CRAZY, it just might help the project better. While Red can Destroy the land around it, & even Artifice, actually has a Passion for the project, & can even help in a pinch when an idea is weighed in on the For Color's Opinions. This color is also adventurous, meaning it believes if it can't work well enough, at least the other colors can help make a decision. What ever this BIG Project is, is that, thus why I call this Color Identity Nickname: "MIND≒0" (Hey, it's NOT A Persona 4 Ripoff, The Protagonist actually kicks ass, I hated Yu Narukami (IMO.), & The Captain's Attendant, or whatever isn't the main Antagonist here. There, I spoiled P4 for you. Just Play either Persona 3, or 5 instead, will ya?). But seriously though, I chose that name as the 4 colors of such creativity can even be a literal team, each w/ a good part to play for all 4 colors. Sure, has Impurities of their own, but sensing AEther, & creating organic life as a construct far from counts... Friggen elves of Kaladesh. -_-


Welp, that's 2 4c's down, 3 to go. I'd appreciate your thoughts on my case...

June 24, 2019 2:09 p.m.

BMHKain says... #24

Saskia/ is quite a combination of things from the beginning. A very Warrior-esque color identity with quite a Berserker Mode that can be access anywhere at anytime; much like tearing a hole in Space-Time. Let's Delve into the Madness, shall we?

First thing to start is what's NOT included. In this case; it's Blue . A very good set of reasons why Blue isn't added is simple: That color can think, it has a Mindset, & if the DOCTOR WHO episode pre-Opening credits screen of "The Witch's Familiar" taught us anything; thinking as fast as possible; even when you're surrounded by Daleks; everyone aiming precisely at you at once. Split Second Decisions WILL NOT help you here. The Doctor only escaped for a reason I forgot. Dalek Lasers are stated to be at least Relativistic speed; which no Human mind can think fast enough at all. Death by Hundreds of Daleks in Skaro.

But this combination doesn't need the intelligence of Blue anyway. Let's Delve into pure evil...

Black needs one thing & only one thing here: MOAR POWAH! Power as an addictive chemical in this case is a true nightmare for the senses. As the increase of Power for Black grows; & never stops, even the idea of "Overthrowing Omnipotence" becomes a thought, albeit...

Spock: This is HIGHLY Illogical.

But Black gives no care about adding a limit to such Power. Anything that Black can beat, the ladder goes higher & higher; but in reality, Arcanis the Omnipotent IS that. It just blows that it can be killed; quite easily in fact. Just instakill an Omnipotent like Arcanis, & it will never matter; Black 's obsession for power can even transcend Omnipotent Beings; though this isn't meant as possible at all. But the urge keeps going on no matter what.

Red is the primary color of Emotion; EXCEPT, Red in this case doesn't have a single luxury in the Multiverse to have Good Emotions; Happiness, Love, even genuine sadness; & if such an individual is to shed tears; they instead shed blood from their eyes; Tears of Hate; Only Negative Emotion is permitted in this color identity. Anger, Rage, Bloodlust; all these Negative Emotions & many others are even transmuted, & morphed with a Mind of Chaos; a very dangerous situation that forces one to keep killing regardless on whose side such an individual is (Fun Fact: Yugekitai, a Doujin Visual Novel for the JP-Only PC-98 almost always has a choice in which the first instinct is "Fight".). Even after killing the rest of the world's population, Instead of going "THE TWILIGHT ZONE" method, & have the world to yourself; only for your glasses to fall; lens fractured; & say "That's not fair!" over & over, basically, such mutated emotions persist; even with no other animal life left.

Green needs no introduction. The Wildlife of our world are in an everconstant Battle of the Food Chain; one of which, we're actually very low in rank in spite of how we make such weapons; which do work, but foundations of many kinds have White to repopulate such creatures; & kill us as a species ourselves for saving them. In the Wild, there are no rules; Just survive, or die. Nature has only adapted from our heinous acts; & vengeance will never be denied by a mere City Folk like us. Savagery, & Pure Animal instinct is what Green provides here.

But what about White ? It more or less a color that would never work with any of the other 3 colors; but there might be a way...

In Innistrad alone, Inquisitors exist as not only authority figures, but even those that demand order or that person is to be killed on even a glimpse of sight. In the situation this doesn't work for White , it still has one last Trump Card; Uniformity. As a start, White would work together with Green ; the only allied color White has. This method works similarly to the T'au Empire of WARHAMMER 40,000; basically, Join, or die. If the offer is denied, one of two things happen:

  1. Red takes over for Green .

  2. Red works with Green to slaughter.

No matter the case, it will never end well. Red & White show no remorse as chaotic soldiers of war. Add Green , & god help you when a Nayan Savage wishes to murder you.

But what about Black ? Simple. With all the ever increasing Power it has, White can even use Structure via Planning to even use all that power in a way nobody would think of using it for: Strategic Murder. A Murder Case so fool proof; evidence doen't exist; much less the body & any remnant of it. Sadly though; this has never been successful as Authority Equipment has only gotten better.

Well, that was fun. But now this Color Identity needs a nickname; but I'm not going ahead to do this. But I know someone who will...


Yep; friggen Fury's Core. Let's do this, Sekai-no-Ito!

Starting with Rakdos , this identity will make you not only murder everyone around you, & even have you dance aroung the Karnage, poor Rakdos has no chance but to run away, sobbing uncontrollably, & HOWLING like a B----. Gruul isn't much better; having the emotion mentioned earlier, combine that with the primal instinct of the greatest of the Natural Order, your mind will no longer be that of a Human; but a Mesozoic Era Theropod; Rest in Peace, Domri Rade . Know you summoned Ilharg, the Raze-Boar in your memory. Even Selesnya is not kind as they can create an army faster than the world's quickest blinks of one's eyes. Even worse, they overthrew the Orzhov & became the Prime Religion of Ravnica. Yes, Selesnya are just Religeous Extremists; that hate all things; even Progress (& Plants growing is this; friggen hypocrites.) Speaking of Orzhov , THEY TOO ARE A PART OF THIS! Even have a different opinion from this means your very existence dies from either forcing your lifetime supply of blood from you HARSHLY; or worse; your entire Bloodline; which can even have a Pre-Cambrian root in which if it dies, & it WILL; they'll do it in all timelines & possibilities. You wouldn't even have a Family tree spanning that far anymore. Boros would make you REGRET hating the identity in ALL FORMATS; much less Commander. Having an Army of INANE SOLDIERS that fight to the death w/ no mindset, & is a MONSTER all around. Even Saber of Red, AKA Mordred from Fate/APOCRAPHA is this. Then there's Golgari , Oh my lord... They practically believe the ideas of Life & Death makes such undead a nightmare to deal with; Gorgons, Undead, they only believe in the idea of reanimation of the slaughtered; not Life & Death like the Circle of Life of The Lion King.

The Three Colors aren't any better; far worse in fact. Starting with The Shard of Jund , This identity is already filled with Vulgar Savages. Jund wants a truly animalistic mentality, while also Craving Power; Essentially, a monster whose power will go nowhere but UP. Such absolute Murdering beasts will throw you to a Worldheart Dragon to KILL you. Naya is FAR Worse. This Shard already has Behemoths! Godsire 's! Even Mayael the Anima (Oh no...) can summon the deadliest creatures of incredible size, strength & even utilizing Quality over Quantity will make this your end.

Tarkir's Clans aren't any better. The Mardu Horde can strike so fast, you'd not exist before even The Flash (Ugh... -_-) can react. Let's imagine this as I KRUNCH numbers for ol' Barry Allen's speed, which is mentioned as Massively FTL+; which is at least 1000x the Speed of Light, which dividing that by 100 gives us Mach 8810.2; Mach 1 is also The speed needed to break the sound barrier, which is 768 mph.

You do the math. Zurgo demands it.

Finally there is the Abzan Houses; with their durability, huge numbers, & having Black Power, Green 's Ferocity of the Wild, & even White 's Uniformity, this is a tough foe to beat.

After so much HELL, this section is finally complete. I told you it would take awhile; but for at least something. BTW, the Nickname for Saskia is "Fury's Core"' the qualities of this identity seem to fit well.

Hope you guys are still supporting this thread, as my next 4-Color identity attempt is this...

(Infinity has found a limit; & all but Urabrask has found it...)

I'll mention any themes for these color combos above. Until then; good night.

June 26, 2019 8:36 p.m.

BMHKain says... #25


Is anyone sill following this? Was the previous post too much for anyone? in any case, I do apologize for such a notion. Maybe it would be more appropriate if I mention all 5 4 Color Identities personally?

Well, regardless of answer, I'll try all I can:

Breya/"MIND≒0"/Yore-Tiller : Collaboration, Problem Solving, Just learning as a whole.

Yidris/Discord (Or Bill Cipher.)/Glint-Eye : Loss of Mental Control, Outlandish Imagination, Terminal Irredeemable Status.

Saksia/FURY'S CORE/Dune-Brood : Genocidal Tendencies, Group Status, Rejection of Peace of Others

Kynaios and Tiro/(NOT) James Buchanan/Ink-Treader : Governmental Balance (Like the Legislative, Executive, & Judicial Branches.), Selflessness & Care for others, Discrimination Opposition.

Atraxa/STEM/Witch-Maw : Increasing of Concept, Never-Ending Process, Evolution as a Whole.

Well, here we are, all 5 4 Color Stuff w/ plausible ideas for all of them. If you're still following this, Boza, and/or legendofa, I'd like some thoughts on this; as I'm thinking of doing ALL 5 colors next. But I'd like your opinon on all this, & I'm once again sorry for whatever post I said that went out of control. It would be wise if you ignored those.

Thanks for all the help thus far! ^_^

June 29, 2019 10:40 a.m.

legendofa says... #26

I think isn't as much loss of control as it is an utter disregard for consequences. Its actions are direct and destructive, but it still can create and carry out a plan--spies, assassinations, rabble-rousing, and spreading anarchy all need patience and preparation. It just doesn't care at all who or what gets blown up, sent to another dimension, or turned inside out and upside down as a result of its plan, as long as it comes out on top. It's more about complete domination than mindless destruction. Outlandish imagination fits well, but I'm not sure what "terminal irredeemable status" means.

is not just growth, but growth with purpose. It has a goal, and anything that doesn't contribute to that goal is ignored or removed.

can be, if not welcoming, at least tolerant of others. It definitely believes in strength by force and might makes right, but it also believes in expansion. If you're willing to work with , or at least stay out of its way, you're good.

These are my initial thoughts on these color sets, and I'll probably be back with more later.

June 29, 2019 8:19 p.m.

BMHKain says... #27

@legendofa: Actually, you know what? Those are actually better ideas of such color identities than I could establish. Sorry, Boza & cdkime. But I'm forced to the point where this guy might be onto something about more complicated Color Identities. It'll take time to establish them all, but this guy might be our last hope on this. I've already put in the Main Mono Color ideas, & maybe could throw in all Ten Guilds if need be; although at this point; the rest of the community is right about 2 Guild 4 Color Alliances; just based on quote alone; each of the Ten Guilds of RAVNICA have too many enemies to ally with even after the events of WAR. If it's okay w/ you, legendofa. Should I incorporate those Color Identities' own personality traits you stated; they really are better than mine you know. Oh & the "Terminal Irredeemable Status" thing; based on what you stated, is crossing the Moral Event Horizon; or M.E.H. (Yes, it's not only a bad joke, but also a decent Acronym (Did I get that term right at least?). When done, a character is no longer able to redeem themselves. Many villains in fiction are known for this, but some of these just barely make it only to get back up by the last quark-length; Quarks & Leptons are stated at one point to be the smallest form of matter of everything around us; & literally an infinite amount of Spatial concept; at least, that's what fiction tells us. ;P

June 30, 2019 1:31 p.m.

legendofa says... #28

Okay, I get what you meant by "terminal irredeemable status."

is enthusiasm, hope, joie de vivre, and collaboration. It spreads the wealth and love in good times and is the first to offer help in bad times. It will sometimes be a little shortsighted and trusting.

is the one I have the least clear picture of, but I see it as problem-solving and methodical. It finds and applies unconventional answers to problems, and keeps those solutions available for future use, although it can occasionally overlook or reject the simplest answer.

July 1, 2019 2:19 p.m.

BMHKain says... #29

@legendofa: Thanks. Well, w/ the 4 Colors Done, I don't suppose I could use your definition for each of your color identity descriptions so far? I'm planning to do the Ravnica Guilds next. But I've a lot to do right now regardless. I don't suppose you'll give the OK if I use them (Color Descriptions.)?

July 3, 2019 1:44 p.m.

legendofa says... #30

BMHKain They're free to use. If you're going to distribute them or something, I would appreciate some credit, though.

July 3, 2019 6:20 p.m.

BMHKain says... #31

@legendofa: Well, I already got 5/7 Mono colors (Besides & (Snow (Where's our Mana Symbol?!)).);, & a Messed Up Slate for the Ten Ravnican Dual Color Personalities; I'd like at least a URL for the Personalities of those Guilds, please; I really can't find ANYTHING for Snow Mana Personality though; do they no Personality at all; thus, no traits?

July 3, 2019 6:53 p.m.

legendofa says... #32

From Mark Rosewater, this article gives his views on philosophy, and has links to his articles on the other two-color combinations.

right now is more of a mechanic than anything, and I think it's going to get developed in the (fairly near) future. It doesn't have a true philosophy beyond "cold and icy" right now.

July 3, 2019 6:59 p.m.

BMHKain says... #33

Hmmm... Alright. I guess it could work. Although; (Cold & Icy?), Huh. Didn't think that color is/always will be more of a Supplemental idea than anything; I mean; Arcum's Astrolabe is all I have to a card w/ just in its color identity. Might as well be used alongside if interacts w/ all kinds of colors; & yet; does have a Philosophical thing behind it. just cares about other Permanents w/ the Snow Supertype. Damn. Might as well state (Unknown Indefinitely.) for Ol' .

Come to think of it: How many times did I say Snow?! (4; the number of Death in Japan...)

July 3, 2019 7:20 p.m.

BMHKain says... #34

@legendofa: Got all the 2 Color Connections & Conflicts on the OP alongside all 4 Color Combos. But I dunno any Personality trait for any of them that fits as individual words. Do you have any ideas; or am I pushing you too much? I didn't mean to do so if the latter is true. :/

July 3, 2019 8:57 p.m.

BMHKain says... #35

@legendofa: I'm trying to decipher what each of the Ten Guilds' Personality Traits are, but the same failure of my attempts is also true for 4 colors. I dun suppose you can help me on just mere terms; & not whole Multitudes of Paragraphs (2 Color.), or even 4 Color Personality Traits? I'll try & re-find that one topic about Colorless Mana Personalities for now...

July 4, 2019 12:15 p.m.

legendofa says... #36

Right now, I'm pretty much posting as I have the thoughts and time. I'm not ignoring this, I just don't have anything to add at the moment.

The two-color sets can't really be distilled to a single word, similar to the single colors.

July 4, 2019 9:57 p.m.

BMHKain says... #37

@legendofa: Yeah. That's a good point actually; I'm trying to reduce each identity to 5 simple terms (Though Devoid as an ability literally requires a term for "Existing outside of our understanding of the world."; Yep. No Artifice, No Colorless Walkers, just pure Eldrazi-esque personality. & I'm still looking for a 5th one word with this definition: "To force its Rules & Ways upon all those around them.". That's Azorius BTW.). I'll ponder on this later. I've a deck to make (& A Buylist to setup.).

July 5, 2019 7:46 a.m.

BMHKain says... #38


Hey there, legendofa. Just finished the 2 Color Identity Traits. I just have several things I wanted to note:

  1. After the Ravnica Pairs are implemented, I've yet to find a one word thing that is based on definition of the stuff I wanted to mention, but couldn't find anything of the sort. Any ideas for them, and/or can you find any better?

  2. 4 Color Groups don't seem to have any idea for exactly 5 Traits each. What do you think those 5 Personality Traits should be each?

  3. For , I refrained from using Artifice, & Walkers. Only Eldrazi (If they have color, they must also have Devoid.), & stuff like Scion of Ugin , Ugin's Conjurant , but NOT Morophon, the Boundless (Said Genderless Mass of Nrvnqsr-Chaos Primordial Godhood); its Five Colors technically. But I'm still unsure about two terms in this case: Metaphysical (Not sure if this means it isn't compatible w/ reality...), & (Some Word defined as "Existing outside of our understanding of the world."). Yep, just 2 of Ugin's Apparitions, Devoid users, nothing Walker, of Artifact based; at all. But what Eldrazi-Esque Personality Traits Names would work for Non-Artifact/Walker cards?

  4. If has no Personality at all, should I keep it? At least Arcum's Astrolabe 's only Mana Cost should do some Justice...

  5. As I still have that old Two Guild 4 Color Alliance Group of 5 Still on there, I dun suppose I should remove all those quotes? I'm about to Accordion them all now.

I hope these questions mean at least something. I'll find a certain someone after all this...

July 6, 2019 12:47 p.m.

BMHKain says... #39

(bumping is useless as I tried many times, but I dunno if legendofa is even following this.)

I wonder if you're still following this. If not, who do you recommend for this crazed project? I really wonder who...

July 8, 2019 12:56 p.m.

BMHKain says... #40



Since I'm the only one who even gives a care here anymore, I guess I could sum up the 4 Color Guild Alliances.

First: Azorius Senate : They have an Alliance with the Orzhov Syndicate via Bond of Discipline , and are somewhat like allies with the Simic Combine via Beck / Call . In these terms, they would be like The Witch-Maw, Atraxa, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Second: Orzhov Syndicate : They have an Alliance w/ the Azorius Senate via Bond of Discipline , and are somewhat like allies with the Selesnya Conclave via Ready / Willing . In these terms, they would be like The Witch-Maw, Atraxa, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Third: House of Dimir : They have an Alliance w/ the Izzet League via Bond of Insight , and are somewhat like allies with the Cult of Rakdos via Breaking / Entering . In these terms, they would be like The Yore-Tiller, Breya, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Fourth: Izzet League : They have an Alliance w/ the House of Dimir via Bond of Insight , and are somewhat like allies with the Boros League via Catch / Release . In these Terms, they would be like The Yore-Tiller, Breya, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Fifth: Cult of Rakdos : They have an Alliance w/ the Golgari Swarm via Bond of Revival , and are somewhat like allies with the House of Dimir via Breaking / Entering . In these terms, they would be like The Glint-Eye, Yidris, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Sixth: Golgari Swarm : They have an Alliance with the Cult of Rakdos via Bond of Revival , and are somewhat like allies with the Gruul Clans via Flesh / Blood . In these terms, they would be like The Glint-Eye, Yidris, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Seventh: Gruul Clans : They have a Alliance with the Boros League via Bond of Passion , & are kind of like and are somewhat like allies with the Golgari Swarm via Flesh / Blood . In these terms, they would be like the Dune-Brood, Saksia, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Eighth: Boros Legion : They have a Alliance with the Gruul Clans via Bond of Passion , & are kind of like and are somewhat like allies with the Izzet League via Catch / Release . In these terms, they would be like the Ink-Treader, Kynaios and Tiro, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Ninth: Selesnya Conclave : They have a Alliance with the Simic Combine via Bond of Flourishing , & are kind of like and are somewhat like allies with the Orzhov Syndicate via Ready / Willing . In these terms, they would be like The Witch-Maw, Atraxa, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.

Tenth (Final): Simic Combine : They have a Alliance with the Selesnya Conclave via Bond of Flourishing , & are kind of like and are somewhat like allies with the Azorius Senate via Beck / Call . In these terms, they would be like The Witch-Maw, Atraxa, & the identities' 4 Color Personality Traits.


Witch-Maw: 4

Yore-Tiller: 2

Glint-Eye: 2

Dune Brood: 1

Ink-Treader: 1

I'll decide the identities later, But I'll say this:

All Witch-Maw Results ended w/ the same result: Bond of Discipline & Bond of Flourishing every time. The only Ink-Treader result had Bond of Passion , & Izzet League . & the only Dune-Brood result had Bond of Passion also, but also had Golgari Swarm .

I'll decide this later. I just wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions for terms for 2 Color Identity Personality Traits of One Word each, but 5 of them. At this point, I'm only doing personality traits for Non Artifact-Related anything & even won't count Planeswalkers. Just Eldrazi & Colored Eldrazi w/ Devoid (I'm trying to find a term for "Not having Compatibility with Reality", as well as "Existing outside our understanding of our World."). Based on what legendofa said for the Four-Colors, can you think of 5 terms for this? Any 3 Colors? The Dual Colors are a mess. & is there such a thing as 5 Personality Traits? I'd really like to see 5 for all of them; Mono Color did that in spades; so since such a person might have been asked too much, Why not you, Boza? Haven't heard from you in awhile, any opinions on this? Oh, & one last thing; All qualities need to be different for each of the 5 Traits. I hope this isn't too much, guys. I'm believing I pushed one of us too far. My bad. X/

July 9, 2019 11:27 a.m.

legendofa says... #41

5 color is everythingness. I see it as potential without direction, versatility without focus. It prepares for everything by preparing for anything. It can do anything it wants; the trick is to do it at the right time for the right results.

July 9, 2019 8:37 p.m.

legendofa says... #42

At this point, isn't well-defined. It's got artifacts, Eldrazi, a couple of Ugin-y things, and that's pretty much it. Like 5 color, it can do anything, but where 5 color has trouble focusing, has trouble developing. It does a lot of little things, not always efficiently, and a small number of ridiculously over-the-top big things, but everything else doesn't really have much to untie it. I guess you could call that its philosophy, being third- or fourth-best at everything.

July 9, 2019 10:14 p.m.

Boza says... #43

Colorless for me is unnatural, in any sense of the word. It can be artifacts, eldrazi, the mysterious powers of Ugin - these are things that normally are not present around us, that we cannot stumple upon, or fathom even if we do stumble upon them. It can be seen in green and white's hatred for artifacts - the unnatural and colorless are both out of order and away from the natural world.

5 color could be a jack of all trades, master of none situation. Like you can do a bit of everything and are a bit of everything, but cannot do anything well. A 5 color character would be someone who has a grand view of the world, cares about what happens in it a lot and is willing to progress forward.

5 color can also be viewed as in opposition to colorless. While the 5 colors represent the natural order of things, the colorless represents everything outside of it.

July 10, 2019 3:49 a.m.

BMHKain says... #44


(no, really.)

Not bad. I like your forethought on all 5 colors in one combination. I just want one thing from you about such things: A single word for each of the 5 qualities you've mentioned. It will be hard, but if legendofa mentioned everything that needs to be known about 4 Colors, I'd be more than happy to give you the credit for 5 colors. Why 5 individual words? Because Mono Color already has this, & I'd like the same for all other possibilities; & all unique to the combination in question. So, can you think of a word that defines as "Jack of all Trades"? A grand view of the World? Cares for what happens of the world a lot? I'm just wondering, I have something to make after all this; but a lot of my decks needs cuts; & I'd like to make one more deck here before also being a part of Archidekt as well; if it is even good...

Thoughts? Not just on 5c Personality Trait Words, but Archidekt as well. :/

July 11, 2019 10:15 a.m.

Boza says... #45

Probably the word would be Savant for all 5 colors. If it had to a 5 word sentence: Gathering Knowledge within the Self, while Emotions rules the World.

Each capitalized word is for WUBRG, respectively.

July 11, 2019 12:10 p.m.

BMHKain says... #46

@Boza: I'll accept Savant for the 5 Color Personality Traits. Which leaves us w/ 4 more. Knowledge is already a term for Mono-, but I've yet to see words like Self (I dunno how that applies to TBH. :/), or World even. I do know some synonyms for Savant though; choose w/ discretion. The other two terms are spot-on, albeit my misunderstanding on how they work in WUBRG: intellect · scholarship · sage · philosophy · Solomon · Professional authority · Mastery

I just need two other terms that describe WUBRG better than all others. I'll contact the other one involved later on. I got some Archidekting to do though... Good job on the terms so far; we just need two more outside of Synonyms for Savant; & I wonder how "Self", & "World" Apply to this...

July 11, 2019 4:01 p.m.

BMHKain says... #47


Young Neil: I'm young. I'll grow out of it.

@Boza: Please remember each of the color Identities has 5 Personality Trait Terms representing them, & each term has to be different from the other identities entirely. I'll refer Savant as "Philosophical". This is just one of five. I'd like some ideas for 4 more please; if you don't mind of course. I already am about to use Talisman terms for Ravnican Color Pairs after this.

Though just imagine a Legendary Creature/Planeswalker w/ a Color Identity you choose yourself... Converted Mana Cost , Can even be this if you wish: ... I'd like that; ALOT.

July 13, 2019 6:18 a.m.

BMHKain says... #48


(I hope I got the reference I parodied right...)

@Boza: You still there? As I'm trying to work on my decks, keep in mind each color identity must have 5 differing traits unique to them. I converted "Savant" to "Philosophical" unless they have differing definitions. I just need 4 more traits for . Then, we're set.

@legendofa: After making some great definitions on the 4 Color identities, I just wonder if you know 5 different personality Traits for all 5? Also, after trying my best to do the 2 Color Traits, I couldn't find enough good traits w/o knowing a single word matching a definition; I mean, I can't find a single word defining "Jack of all Trades, Master of None." for Five Colors.

I hope the both of you still have time to help... I might need it very soon. Sorry.

July 14, 2019 11:02 a.m.

legendofa says... #49

Jack of all trades, master of none = generalist.

You might be better off with 3-4 words for each; 1 is going to be hard.

July 14, 2019 12:14 p.m.

BMHKain says... #50

@legendofa: All right; 4 then. I suppose I'll decide the fifth for myself then. Even though Mono Colors Already have 5 Personality Traits. Speaking of which, for : I'm already confused about 2 terms; One, does being Metaphysical mean you are incompatible w/ reality; & if not, what term does? Same for a word w/ this definition: "Existing outside of our understanding of the world.". If you wanted to know; is all Eldrazi, no Artifice, & no Walkers. The latter 2 in my book are nothing but a cheat to me; but Scion of Ugin , & Ugin's Conjurant . Just wondering if you're also interested in this as well. I'll find the Terms for Ravnican Personalities myself; & failing thus far... X/

July 14, 2019 2:42 p.m.

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