Are these three worth it in EDH?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on May 14, 2015, 8:54 p.m. by Phaetion
The three in question: Nether Void, The Abyss, Chains of Mephistopheles.
I've been thinking about getting all of them over time. I'm only running mono-black (and will run it for the foreseeable future), so these would seem to be cards to acquire for my collection of black cards for my EDH decks.
Except I am uncertain if these three are worth running in mono-black, especially since they are so expensive.
My questions to you are these:
-Is it worth getting all three of them for EDH purposes?
-Are they "must-haves" for any mono-black deck (Alright, I mean is it necessary to acquire them)?
"You run what you feel like" isn't the answer here; I am very uncertain on how I feel towards them. I want them, but they are so expensive and I am not sure if they're worth it in all but the most competitive EDH decks.
I forgot to mention that one of the issues I have is with regards to Chains of Mephistopheles and Nether Void: Their effects are hard to find in Black. The Abyss would be one I'd live without, since its Magus exists-and it's replicated on other cards.
DERPLINGSUPREME: I do agree with that sentiment, but I must ask: what do you mean by "slightly worse?"
May 14, 2015 9:05 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME has it, if you have the extra cash, do it. If not, there are other, much more affordable things you can get.
May 14, 2015 9:07 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON: ...except this is mono-black. I have no question Nether Void would do wonders in Mishra decks.
May 14, 2015 9:16 p.m.
lemmingllama says... #9
Nether Void is only necessary if you are playing stax-type decks. Otherwise it is unnecessary.
I personally prefer Magus of the Abyss to The Abyss, since the price tag is gorgeous. Still a great card, especially if you have a good way to recur those creatures.
Chains of Mephistopheles is great in EDH if you have the budget for it. There are a lot of draw effects, and this really messes with other people's turns if they are forced to discard whenever they draw.
May 14, 2015 9:21 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #10
Phaetion well, lets use chains of mephidross as an example. from wha tI saw, its about $300 if low priced. here's what you can but with that: Sensei's Divining Top, Scroll Rack, koxilek, ulamog, elesh norn, sheoldred, and all the planeswalker (just about), probably more if I'm estimating as badly as I think.
are the chains as good as all of that combined?
May 14, 2015 9:23 p.m.
NoPantsParade says... #11
I'd get the Chains and just use Magus of the Abyss instead. I don't really think Nether Void is absolutely necessary, either, especially if you're not playing stax.
May 14, 2015 9:29 p.m.
NoPantsParade: A Stax deck is not beyond the bounds of possibility. I will be experimenting with Stax using discard as opposed to denial as a piece of the strategy. Basically, I'm forsaking the likes of Smokestack, Winter Orb, and Static Orb for Descent into Madness, Tainted AEther, and Words of Waste. I have a few ways to touch lands, but I don't make it my goal to deny my opponents the mana in an attempt to allow for more interaction than a typical Stax deck.
Ok, so the general consensus on The Abyss is that it's not worth it, since the Magus is readily available. It was a card I was most ready to live without.
So the only card of the three that is a "must" is the Chains. Am I correct on this assumption (and the one above on Abyss)?
May 14, 2015 9:44 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME: That is true with a number of cards (including the ABU Duals and Timetwister). From what I see, Chains hoses card draw (though it can backfire), and I don't see another card in black that can do that.
May 14, 2015 9:46 p.m.
SageOfStone says... #14
Mono black was my first EDH deck, and to this day it is still very near and dear to me.
Chains of Mephistopheles is only necessary if you're going to abuse it. Mono-black actually doesn't have a lot of ways of doing so. It is usually seen played in Nekusar decks, because of all of the forced drawing from cards like Wheel of Fortune and Forced Fruition. I would say no to Chains.
Nether Void is mono-black goodstuff. If you want to build your deck 100%, you want Nether Void.
The Abyss is way better than the Magus of. The Abyss doesn't destroy itself when you have no other creatures, and it actually supports sweeps like Damnation and Black Sun's Zenith, instead of easily dying to them. I would say that The Abyss is a card you want.
I play mono-black stax/combo. My deck is The Lady in Red (the list a bit out of date, but that's a general idea of how I play). I would love to see yours.
May 14, 2015 9:48 p.m.
Omega13: The only deck I built that can support them right now is Enchanting the Dark Side of the Force, which is an "Enchantress" deck disguised as a Stax/Control deck.
It's interesting you said that about Abyss, because there are other cards that can do it as well (Boardwipes, ironically, and cards like Malicious Affliction and Hero's Downfall do similar things). As for the Void, most of what I heard was that it's only good in Stax.
May 14, 2015 9:53 p.m.
SageOfStone says... #16
Things do stuff like it, but not what it does. Spot removal is not usually good value in multiplayer EDH, as they trade one card for one of an opponent's cards. That means that two of your opponents got a free +2. Damnation is good value, but it's a one-off effect. The Abyss will stay out, and continue killing creatures every turn. This makes it hard for decks to rebuild a lost board presence, or even struggle to build one in the first place.
May 14, 2015 10 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #17
I feel like a very important part that hasn't been hit on is what is your deck trying to do? Are these effects adding to your overall plan or are they just good therefore wanted?
To me Nether Void reads mana leak everything for awhile. If you're playing big stuff it may hurt you more. Playing against green they will likely stabilize first and they will likely have enough mana to float in their favor.
Chains seems good against combo decks or a lot of blue but how often are you going get multiple hits off it after the first time it goes off? It's also limiting you to a one card draw as well which may or may not work.
The Abyss has the same can be great or backfire ability as the others. However I think it's more based on what you run already. I play Sheoldred, Whispering One as my black commander The Abyss is perfect because chances are I can out race an opponent. They sac 2 per turn I sac 1 return 1 so have a bet nothing going on. With Blood Artist out and the proper order of the triggers the game is over.
So in the end despite it not being the answer you want the only suitable answer is:It's edh run whatever you want
May 14, 2015 10 p.m.
I have the potential to build various archetypes in Mono-black, so what I am trying to do will not matter, as I am very likely to find homes for the three. The question is whether it's worth biting all three bullets and getting them.
May 14, 2015 10:04 p.m.
AnagonLordofSnakes says... #19
Dude aren't you forgetting Word of Command?'vn
May 14, 2015 10:07 p.m.
I thought about Word not long ago. The best place for it is in Toshiro, who I plan to build a deck for soon. Otherwise, it's not that necessary. :/
May 14, 2015 10:17 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #21
Phaetion it does hose card draw, nad nothing it black really does.
artifacts do, though. theres lots of them, too.
May 14, 2015 10:24 p.m.
fadelightningmm says... #22
Well if you are planning multiple archetypes then you can literally build a deck around anything. Any of these could be decent in any black-x deck.
From the sounds of it you really want to grab these cards you are just waiting on a reason to grab them. I understand that sentiment quite well that's a lot of money. It's easier to say I can spend this because I need this rather than I only want it.
May 14, 2015 10:26 p.m.
Well, Phaetion, based on what you said, I'd say bite the bullet. The Abyss is always going to be better than the magus, Nether Void will always be great in the right deck, and chains is always going to hose the tons of card draw in EDH and really force people off their plans and is another card that shines in the right build.
If you have every intention of being able to find a home for these cards then they're an investment. There's no reason to downgrade yourself (i.e. with the magus over the abyss), unless your planning to take the decks apart shortly after building them. If not then your only going to be looking to improve and upgrade them. There's no reason to buy the cheaper version now with every intention to upgrade later if you have the money and can afford to buy the upgrade now.
May 14, 2015 10:27 p.m.
I'll start by saying I haven't read all the replies before writing this. Also assuming you have the funds and will to buy these.
First things first, enchantments don't last forever in EDH. Board wipes tend to blow em up too. That said, they DO give you a nice advantage and allow you to stabilize.
Nether Void is amazing. Seriously. It makes everyone's else spells go up three spots on the curve. If you drop it on turn four, which is easy to do with tutors, you are going to become a target. A target that no one can actually do anything about until they get an additional three mana for whatever bomb they want to cast at you.
The Abyss is so much better than the Magus. It's just so much easier to kill creatures. Also, the magus makes you keep playing and sacrificing creatures so that you don't sacrifice the Magus. This doesn't have that huge drawback. This really stops indestructable and hexproof things, as well as Voltron decks. Def get it if you can.
Chains of Mephistopheles Not the best in EDH. It does screw with extra card draw but it's at its best in Legacy where it can screw up brainstorms. It will have an effect in legacy, but people can just play around it better. Not necessary, but can be fun.
May 14, 2015 10:54 p.m.
I've decided just to get them all. Why not? There's no other black cards that expensive...are there?
May 15, 2015 2:32 p.m.
I mean, you could always pick up a Mox Jet, Imperial Seal or Liliana of the Veil. Other than that, the most expensive mono-black cards are like, $20-50, especially now that Bob (not that you'd really want to use him in EDH anyway) is down to 50.
May 15, 2015 3:11 p.m.
Mox is banned. Imperial Seal is outclassed by Vampiric Tutor and Liliana Vess. Lili 2.0 isn't that good in EDH. If the minus was "Each player sacrifices a creature," I'd run it in a heartbeat.
Thank you for reminding me about Dark Confidant and Dark Tutelage because I thought about them, but the card advantage is too slow in multiplayer, which sums up about most of my games, if not all of them. Yet they might be good, but that may be me getting a little greedy with card choices. :/
May 15, 2015 3:35 p.m.
If you aren't running them, i'd suggest Yawgmoth's Will, Volrath's Stronghold, Damnation, Bitterblossom, Infernal Darkness (not expensive), Oversold Cemetery (not expensive), and Overwhelming Forces (used to be super, super expensive but they released a FTV version). All great cards but some aren't super well known.
May 15, 2015 4:01 p.m.
I already have all those. You brought up Infernal Darkness and reminded me of Contamination, and that is something I should mention in my upcoming Stax deck, but I'll mention here:
I've been on the receiving end of a Contamination one game, and I did not have fun in that game at all. Why should I play with cards that I hated being on the receiving end? It doesn't make sense. If I were to play Stax, it and Infernal Darkness would be notable exclusions. Same with some others like Smokestack. Yes, I will have ways to deny mana, but at least my opponents will have a choice in what cards to keep, just like the Annihilator mechanic (One exception: Death Cloud).
May 15, 2015 4:06 p.m.
I consider Contamination and Infernal Darkness win cons. If you can prove that you can keep them up indefinitely, and no one else can reliably remove them, you should just be declared the winner and they should scoop. If they don't and want to drag it out, it's not your fault if they end up miserable. They had their chance to concede turns ago.
May 15, 2015 4:12 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia says... #31
They're all very powerful cards in control, but they're aggressively unfun. They don't make you any friends at the table, but if you're looking to play competitively, the only thing keeping you from playing them is the price tag. Chains is the least replaceable, but it's also the least fun magic card in the world. (Except maybe stasis) If your goal with this deck is to have fun, the cards aren't needed. They're powerful, but they're not going to lead to more fun.
For cheaper alternatives to Abyss and Void, look to Smokestack effects and Thorns. Those will get the closest to it. There's nothing quite like Chains in mono black.
May 15, 2015 5:24 p.m.
NotSoLuckyLydia: I will use them now and again. It's very rare that all of them will be in the same deck at once. I am part of a league, where they will do work. Again, I have a million mono black decks to build and deconstruct at will, so focusing on one deck is not an issue. Smokestack was a card I already ruled out. I'd run Descent into Madness instead. Thorns I never gave much thought about, but I'd be stax-y enough with all the discard I'm running.
kyuuri117: That may be true, but it would also be very unfair to be on the receiving end of either one (or both).
May 15, 2015 5:42 p.m.
Greendawg81 says... #33
Chains of Mephistopheles can be really fun in a Nekusar, the Mind Razer deck.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #2
personally, I'd say no. think of it this way: how much stuff can you buy for the price of those that is only SLIGHTLY worse?
May 14, 2015 8:57 p.m.