Winota, Joiner of Forces
Legendary Creature — Human Warrior
Whenever a non-Human creature you control attacks, look at the top six cards of your library. You may put a Human creature card from among them onto the battlefield tapped and attacking. It gains indestructible until end of turn. Put the rest of the cards on the bottom of your library in a random order.
Printings View all
|Ikoria: Lair of Behemoths (IKO)||Mythic Rare|
Combos Browse all
|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Winota, Joiner of Forces Discussion
1 week ago
Warnings, in response to the token's etb target, if it gets killed, you lose the original forever too. So, for all intents and purposes, this is a fragile combo, but if you can protect this with some Sylvan Safekeeper, Giver of Runes or Mother of Runes (especially mother, as it is a human for Fiend Hunter, if this is a tribal deck).
Otherwise yes, this has even been used against me in a Winota, Joiner of Forces deck, I beat it, but only since my single useful creature had shroud, and the other creatures were just a Containment Priest and someone else's Gilded Drake when they stole something idk.
3 weeks ago
I don't play with anything before Theros Beyond Death. That is why it seems like it's on a budget.
Garrison Cat: A 1/1 that dies and becomes a 3/3+ when it dies. So if the kill it, it's actually a win for me. Two creatures for one is better than one creature for two.
Why would I worry about Shatter the Sky with my legendary creatures?
3 weeks ago
At first, I thought you were on a budget but then I saw the price of Luminous Broodmoth and now I'm confused. If you are on a budget, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you aren't then you shouldn't be playing Evolving Wilds over either Temple of Silence or Temple of Triumph (at the very least). And if you really aren't on a budget, Fabled Passage is basically a better Evolving Wilds.
Still on the topic of your mana base, are you having any issues casting Winota, Joiner of Forces? Because the way your mana base is currently, it would like you would. At the very minimum, I would recommend at least 1-2 basic Mountain to ensure you can cast her when you find her. That being said, the rest of my suggestions:
Reverent Hoplite is way too expensive (mana-wise) for 20 lands. I would either add more lands so you can cast it when you don't have access to Winota or pull 2 copies. Otherwise, that's a cool card to pull out with her effect.
Personally, I don't care much for Necropanther because it doesn't have many mutate targets so it's generally going to be a 3/3 for 3. Which isn't bad, but isn't good either. I would recommend replacing it with Raise the Alarm which is good for two reasons: firstly, it is an instant, meaning you can cast it after your opponent has cast Shatter the Sky, Deafening Clarion or some other wrath effect. Secondly, they aren't humans so they trigger Winota's effect.
Your list is interesting, and I would love to hear how it plays and see where you take it. May you never flood and have fun playing!
3 weeks ago
Updated to attempt surviving past turn 4 against generals like Winota, Joiner of Forces
4 weeks ago
To answer your question, no, this is not standard practice and is a relatively new thing to have this amount of regular bans. Too much money and too much interest in MTG is pushing Hasbro to run WotC with an iron gauntlet
The largest problem has been card design. After 2017, Wizards sacked the Play Design team after the copycat combo slipped through the cracks, and replaced it with a team trying to embody the F.I.R.E. design
F - Is it Fun? I - Is it inviting? R - Does it give lots of replayability? E - Does it excite the players?
Since adopting this new slogan, R&D has been putting out dumpster fire set after dumpster fire set, which have led to some of the least fun, inviting, replayable, or exciting games.
Many of the issues Wizards claims "We couldn't playtest it fast enough, there's just no way we can playtest everything!"
Hasbro is a billion dollar company. I understand that WotC is feeling pressure from the Hasbro suits to perform, but if they need to hire play testers than there is no excuse. Hire play testers. Wizards never even bothered to test Oko, Thief of Crowns +1 on opposing player's permanents, they thought it would entirely be used for food tokens. Wow, remember how fun the game was when Oko was running rampant?
Or the "hope you didn't want to interact ever" Teferi, Time Raveler? Not being able to interact doesn't make the game more exciting Wizards!
Or the 1 card combo Karn, the Great Creator who pulls the hard lock piece from your sideboard?
Or companions, a mechanic so absurdly busted that Mark Rosewater rejected the idea during the Tempest block, and even wrote a long piece clearly showing he knows why the mechanic is a crack smokingly bad idea
So how does this all relate back to bans? Simple. Wizards is now relying on bans to shore up the weaknesses in their sets, since they are either too lazy or too incompetent to put out finished and polished products anymore.
The bans are also being weaponized to sell packs. Look at the Modern format, and the bannings that came after MH1 was released. Citing the extreme power of the Whir of Invention and Urza, Lord High Artificer decks, they decide to ban Mox Opal, mostly because its an older card and Urza is currently the chase mythic in the MH1 packs.
Or the companion rules errata, in which Wizards is too afraid of an outright ban because Ikoria is in paper right now.
Wizards will always try their hardest to keep the newly printed cards off the ban list, and will instead destroy tons of decks in formats while avoiding the problem cards that they just printed. Look how many new cards are shaking up eternal formats? The entire point of Modern and Legacy and Vintage is that they don't rotate, and they slowly change over time, not an entirely new format every 3 months for 2 years.
Ask Wizards to abandon FIRE, sack the entire design team, dropkick MaRo to the curb, and reign in the ridiculous powercreep printings. This game will perish if we continue with these printings and required bannings.
1 month ago
I’ve seen a lot of good videos of games on YouTube where Winota, Joiner of Forces has closed games as early as turn 6 or 7 just with the value you can get off her triggers. Boros is also a pretty cheap land base to build as well as most of the cards for this deck being relatively cheap. I think I was able to put mine together for under $200.
I actually also have an Adeliz deck on Tappedout if you want to take a look. I can share a lot of advice on that and I’m planning to rebuild and update it really soon.
1 month ago
Hey its Commander Replay. I played about 7 games with the deck between your version and mine so ill share my analysis of everything. Ill start with the more general stuff, and then ill dig into card specifics.
First off the hate bear plan worked great against U/x combo decks. Had their combo lines covered early and easily. On the other hand I faced blood pod several times and that seems to be a pretty bad matchup. They have a ton of answers, and with Elesh Norn at the top end its just destroys this deck. It felt like they are doing the same thing but just way better cause of Gaea's cradle and green black tutors so that wasnt amazing. I had a chance to beat it in one game but missed some land drops and drew all the swords with the giant in play, and null rod down. Had i not drawn sinew and steel could have shot the null rod, reequipped jitte, and killed the kataki that followed. I also assume that any deck that is good against blood pod, will also be good against this list. Pyroclasm is real scary.
So the single biggest problem with this deck right now, and the single biggest opportunity for improvement is mana production. You are running very little fast mana and the land count was super low. This list was running 29 and your updated on moxfield was running 30. Both conceptually and in practice, this deck isn't going to win the game on 4 mana...its not flash hulk or consultation. So i think its begging for more lands. I was able to get my list to 31 lands but honestly I think 33 or 34 or would better. Again, this list isn't winning with 3 lands.
Following the land problem there is also not enough fast mana, and things to do with 1 mana. I noticed I was getting log jammed with 2 and 3 drops and was giving away a lot of precious time. And this sort of plays into mana curve issues as well, definitely need to trim back on the 4 drops. I was able to get down to 10, and as I mentioned Id still like to go lower.
So in short the curve was high, and the deck is mana hungry.
Two other smaller problems that I didn't elect to fix since they are matchup specific, but can be solved with a few card changes. Not a lot of removal for creatures. Again, soft to blood pod. Also no main deck pyroblast, REB and Angel's grace type stuff to prevent losing on the spot. Would like to see some answers main deck.
So here are the changes I made. I won't go through all the cuts, but ill mention the big ones. A few things were cut simply for deck space so I won't worry about those.
- Helm of the host - deck isn't producing enough mana to get anywhere close to equipping this. Plus a huge blow out to instant speed interaction.
- Stonehewer looks like the only possible path to victory with this.
- Ruination - a worse armageddon. switch to static orb. its more abuseable.
- Decree of Annhilation - high cost. but i think it could return due its hard to counter nature. went with static orb in place. the orb effects are more abusable IMO.
- Elspeth - not enough impact at 4
- Karn - bad card draw, slow. would rather just pay 1 to get some extra lands.
- Aurelia Exemplar - I cut this one, but it might be worth brining back. I may have cut too much damage from the deck.
- Angel of Jubilition - lot of good abilities, cut for deck slots. might return.
- coalition relic - turn this into fast mana.
- thrill of possibility - we can better than this.
- faithless looting - I'm not a huge fan, but i know people like it.
- glorybringer - this one may need to come back with better mana production. more damage and creature removal.
Must Adds: Ok here are the cards that I think are must adds for the deck to compete in the competitive space. - Land Tax - find your lands. card advantage.
Tithe - find your lands. card advantage
Springleaf Drum - this is fast mana in a deck like this.
Chrome Mox fast mana, but card advantage problem. be sure to balance with draw.
Curse of Opulence - more turn 1 plays and fast mana.
Feast and Famine - bring this in from the Sb, its the best sword by a large margin. it also opens up combos with aggravated assault, and neheb.
Mox Diamond - if you have the $$, MTGO, or proxies legal.
Sword of the Animist - the ramp is very good, and the +1/+1 is relevant.
Smothering Tithe - broken cards are broken.
Other fast mana worth considering:
Mox Opal - rework to have metal craft fast
Mox Amber - maybe. not reliable tho
Simian Spirit Guide guide - one shot boost
Lotus Petal - one shot boost
Rite of Flame - one shot boost.
Card advantage tricks:
I still need to do some work in this area. Tectonic Giant needs more testing, but could consider Prophetic Flamespeaker instead. Its great with swords and you get both cards as opposed to always exiling one. no damage mode tho.
- Light Up the Stage i would strongly consider this is. should be 1 mana most of the time.
- Ignite the Future light up the stage #2.
- Commune with Lava this is very good with feast and famine (float first, untap then cast for like X=10) and dockside extortionist.
- Reforge the Soul strong consideration, but notion thief and narset are real cards.
- Instead of thrill of possibility i went with Daretti, Scrap Savant basically a repeatable thrill, that can bring back your equipments.
- Also I strongly considered Nahiri, the Harbinger and Ajani Vengeant for the 4 cmc slot.
- Palace Jailer strong consideration here
- Skullclampboth of us should probably be running
Win Conditions and Lock outs:
So this is where my deck was maybe a little thin, and Ill need to test a bit.
As mentioned I took Helm out because I just don't think its ever going to happen on the current mana production (but maybe if we figure out some mana tricks) so instead I went for Neheb, the Eternal Sword of Feast and Famine and Aggravated Assault. This is a favorite of mine, all 3 pieces are great on their own and game winning when together.
Winota, Joiner of Forces ridiculous with aurelia. Free creatures.
Winter Orb and Static Orb with Blinkmoth Well ghirapur aethergrid Sword of Feast and Famine and either Neheb. One sided mana production. Use Goblin Engineer to find any of the artifact pieces of the this combo, as well as sword recursion or shenanigans with the orbs.
Planar Chaos this is pet lock piece that I've been testing out. Haven't resolved it yet, but i can't imagine anyone is going to cast much into it.
Ive been strongly considering Possibility Storm with all of the rule of law type effects as an additional source of lock. You can still cast your commander, and generally that should win the game.
Helm of Possession is a fun trick I've used in some decks. good against decks where they really need their commander.
Given the absurd mana hunger of this deck I realized a massive difference in games with dockside extortionist and games without. That led me to thinking about more ways to get dockside extortionist. There are the 2 main recruiters, but I think goblin recruiter is worth looking at because you can put dockside on top, then kiki-jiki right beneath and copy it the following turn or anything else that might make sense (plus aurelia's untap)
testing out Crovax, Ascendant Hero this is to hose blood pod and green mana dorks. basically a second elesh norn. If the deck gets good at locking stuff or producing crazy mana, could look at Thalia's Lancers into Elesh Norn.
All of the 4 drops in my list require significant testing, feel free to cut any of them.
You should add Mikokoro to the main deck. Its solid.
Adriana, Captain of the Guard warrants testing. again for blood pod and other green decks...makes your team huge.
If mana production is good enough to warrant the return of Helm, also add Godo, Bandit Warlord for the additional tutoring and redundancy. Hammer of Nazahn is also pretty real. Could also consider cloud shift and ephemerate as protection and blink to further this combo.
2 months ago
Good discussion, all.
RNR_Gaming that feeling might apply to Standard, but I don't think it's relevant in EDH, as there's no "best" way to build a commander because the philosophy of the format is so different. This series is EDH-centered so I suppose there is only limited application in other formats, and that's where I am coming from anyway.
As an example, I built a Winota, Joiner of Forces deck. The deck has 100 cards, and the side/maybeboards have 45ish more cards that could definitly go in the deck and be awesome. I guess that's what I love about EDH, there's a lot of flexibility in deckbuilding.
Heliogabale and I seem to be on the same page when it comes to deckbuilding. And I agree, I think there's room in EDH for both strategies of deckbuilding.
RNR_Gaming "would you ever write an essay on a book without reading the book?" Laughs in college student
In my 4th article (finding cards) I have a whole section about looking at other people's decks and primers for ideas. So again I think incorporating both strategies within ones deckbuilding philosophy is the best option.
Also, the box of "thinking outside the box" is bigger than the original box of "copying the best decks," so there's no worry of stifling growth. In fact, the "confines" as you call them usually breed creativity, if not the best decks. It all depends on what you think "growth" means.