Pillowfort isn't a strong archetype in EDH.

@AzamiLadyofScrolls: Your Azami build looks really solid. There are a few things I'm curious about though. Why no Patron Wizard? Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Mental Misstep, Dispel, Pact of Negation, Cyclonic Rift, and even Chain of Vapor are much better than Cryptic Command for control. Its high cost makes it difficult to justify in EDH. They're all also better than Trickbind, which is way too situational for its cost. What made you decide to play those two over stronger options? Where are Mana Crypt and Mox Diamond, and why is Star Compass being played over them? No Back to Basics?

What do Ponder, Preordain, and the extra turn effects due for the deck? Why is Silver Myr in there?

Also, @IronBlackZepp: Optimized Zur has almost no reliance on its commander. He's played maybe one in four games. It's Ad Nuaseam and Doomsday that are the threats. The only creature you need to worry about in the deck is Laboratory Maniac.

@Khat: That's fine. Each meta is different. I've had players IRL swear to me that Purphoros is the best commander in the game, and who think Prossh is bad because they only Prossh deck they've ever played against was token swarm build. Unless everyone in your meta is playing fully optimized decks, there are bound to be some weird power inconsistencies. It also doesn't help that less experienced players tend to go for the player with the biggest board state, allowing the combo player to sit in the corner with their six mana and Mind Over Matter and simply win. Poor threat assessment is part of what makes devoted combo builds so amazing.

None of that changes Azami's standing sadly though. Having a 5-drop commander that has to be built around to be good, that forces the inclusion of 10+ sub-optimal creature cards, that takes multiple turns after casting to win, and that plays a rather weak strategy in EDH (traditional control into a combo that costs 4UUUUUUU to go off) just isn't Tier 1 worthy any more. Tier 1 implies she can go toe to toe with commanders like Zur and Karador, which is no longer the case by any stretch.

thegigibeast, it's still in the works, but come take a look at the discussion here.

@NarejED You do realize that this is a multi-player list and not the 1v1-list, right? Having a 5 drop commander that has to be build around is what the majority of the tier 1 lists consists of, this is especially true for the stax decks and the combo decks, the whole reason to play that specific general is due to a certain reason, and Azami is a great card draw engine.The only argument I heard to change Azami is the mulligan change, which still remains highly disputable because it effects all decks - not just Azami, and looking at Azami's drawing power makes me put question marks about the reasoning why certain people believe that Azami has dropped in tier.If you see the tier 1 description, Azami still fits this:

These decks are the most powerful decks in the format. The combo decks can go off on turns 3-5, the stax decks get a lock on turns 3-4, and hybrid decks get a disruption engine by turn 2-4. They will commonly be seen at competitive tables, and players should know how to combat them. They are resilient, pack protection and backup plans, and take dedicated hate to truly counter. Never underestimate these decks, as they are the strongest in the format.

The tier 2 list is written a lot more ambiguous compared to the tier 1 list (what makes a deck less consistent?), however considering the given description Azami should either have become slower (which is not the case) or less consistent - due to the new mulligan rule. I will keep raising question marks if this holds true in a multiplayer environment, the mulligan rule affects all decks that are either stax or combo orientated, and Azami still has her amazing drawing capability to make up for it.If you're going to argue that Azami is un-able to mulligan to find , I will claim the same for any of the other generals in the tier 1 list, seeing how the majority of the decks in tier 1 are combo/stax decks - How is a more expensive and lot less resilient general like Teferi above Azami? Why is Teferi still tier 1, while it's a dedicated stax deck with combo elements, that took a lot more "damage" from the new mulligan rule than the card draw / value engine Azami, which comes down faster than Teferi (this is an example for putting question marks at the decision made around Azami).

I don't mind having Azami being put in a lower tier, the reasoning behind it just doesn't seem to hold true, considering the same reasoning isn't applied to other generals which apparently, according to people, are immune to having a mulligan rule that doesn't let you ditch cards from your opening hand while keeping their wants - this seems very hypocritical to me.

@Khat: I do realize that this is the multiplayer list, and not the French Tier list. I've frequently had to tell other users such. I'm not sure you do though, since you're arguing for a commander who does much better in 1v1 matches than she does in multiplayer.

I laid out several arguments clearly. If you're not reading them, I'm not sure what you want from this discussion. They are: Azami costs a lot. Once she comes down, it takes several turns to win usually, and she can't do anything the turn she DOES come down except draw unless she happens to have Force or Misstep in hand. The strategy she plays (hard control) is not good. She requires a lot of bad creatures to even begin to work. Her win condition costs a ton.

Teferi is significantly more resilient than Azami. Wrath of God doesn't cost him the game. He takes one card to function vs several wizards. He's much more useful on an empty (other than lands) board. He can more efficiently control the rest of the table thanks to stax. He has multiple relevant paths to victory vs. Azami's 1. His overall strategy is much stronger and less fragile. She does always come down faster. 2UUU is roughly as difficult to assemble as 4UU, since cards like Mana Vault and Basalt Monolith can't be used as effectively. Teferi is more relevant the turn he does come down.

Sorry to be so blunt.

@NarejED for each argument there is a counter argument, there is no point to this discussion, seeing how for every example you listed I am able to give a counter example and the same goes for you.However, I just took Teferi as example here (make of this what you want), due to the ambiguous statement of tier 2 being less consistent which is the reason why Azami dropped in tier. The same reason that has affected every single deck in the format aside from generals that are able to directly find their pieces: Arcum Dagsson, Scion, Yisan, Zur are the only tier 1 generals not -or nearly not- affected, after which I would put Azami as being least affected after those 4 due to her card drawing nature.

It seems to boil down to an opinion, that apparently the new mulligan rule is so detrimental for Azami that she apparently lost her tier 1 spot, while others did not. This is what I've been putting my emphasis on, this is the reason why she was lowered in her ranking (not the ones you listed, those have always been pressent and she was tier 1 because of being able to deal with them - something that has not changed) for such a vague and disputable reason, something I still not see properly clarified or argued, and that is why I'm putting question marks to her standing dropping.

Considering she does have to run some suboptimal cards, could getting some of those in the opener and not being able to sculpt them away be the reason? Since many of other commanders aren't constricted by tribal necessities, their openers that aren't great are more manageable? I do not know; I don't run her and don't much play against her, so I just want to offer another avenue of thought, or else clarification for extant idea.

I am very aware of zur and his ad naus builds. I really think it works much better on paper. It is not quite as consistiant as people are acting either. I am not saying he is not teir 1 but I am saying that the plan deos not always work. As for narset and arcum, I think they really are teir 2 though. oh and teferi doesnt see any play at my store but I doubt it is as consistiant as you guys are acting either. I guess we can agree to disagree.

So instead of knowing the consistency of said decks (from admitted lack of explerience with or against them) you would assume? Most of the major contributors to individual commanders have put in time with/against them. Even now, there is a discussion going on about the correct placement for Azami. Commanders aren't placed in tiers willy-nilly; they are (usually) there with intent and evidence. Just some food for thought.

If we are demoting Damia sage of stone for running a similarly weak hard control strategy then demoting Azami seems like it is necessary. BUG is so much better than mono blue in general and damia's deck functions so much better without her than Azami's ever could.

A planted Linvala, Keeper of Silence destroys Azami completeley, with or without commander. Cant say the same about Damia.

Both are worthy of tier 1 I think.

Please let me remind you guys that we do not like people arguing the case for their personal commander. There will be a bias. Also remember we are looking at absolute best deck.

Tier ranking is not meant to be an insult to anyone, or their deck.

I think the ultimate question is, "Can a traditional hard control (counterspell heavy) deck be tier 1?" These are the only 2 commanders capable of pulling it off. Is the strategy worthy of a spot at the top of our multiplayer pyramid?

Btw Meren is tier 1. Why havent you all bowed down to our new overlord? 5 color combo? Literally -10% win rate against meren.

Lol I have never played damia or azami... Only against both, only one of which dies to Worldly Tutor

Edric can, but he's essentially a heftily upgraded Azami.

Yes! I forgot about Edric. He is definitely worthy of tier 1. Damia and Azami are pretenders in his wake to be perfectly blunt. His ability is insane, he is 3cc (which is huge), and in great colors. He can lock people out of the game at least a half at turn on average quicker than both Damia or Azami.

As for Meren, I may be biased against her due to playing against her alot. I have honeslty never seen Meren win a game. What does she bring to the table worthy of tier 1? I dont think she is close to the best midrange creature combo deck. Does she do great with stax?

In other news, I saw that we were still missing a list for Oona, so I went ahead and brewed one up. It's essentially UB storm with Doomsday as the primary win condition. Suggestions welcome.

Link

Lilbrudder: I woudn't call Damia or Azami "pretenders". They are completely different archetypes to Edric. As for your question about Meren, even a suboptimal meren deck can be disgusting when it comes to stax builds. The recursion engine she provides is super powerful.

NarejED: there's also this Oona build: Apocalypse Project which is fairly solid.

(Comments about meren were a joke)

NarejED Clearly you misunderstand most of my meta and didn't look at my list very carefully considering the deck runs both Cyclonic Rift and Mox Diamond. There actually just so happens to be an entire comment dedicated to why I don't run Patron Wizard in the comment section of my deck list. The reason that I don't run those cheaper CMC counters over Cryptic Command is because cryptic is one of the two cards in the deck that I can use to stop one person from completely bashing me in the face with all their creatures and it also can serve the purpose as a counter and as draw (I highly value its versatility). As for Trickbind, it is one of those extremely useful cards that people tend to overlook. In my meta it is definitely worth running. Stifle and Trickbind accomplish some tasks that cannot be accomplished by regular counter magic. As for not running a Mana Crypt, that's simply because I haven't had the money yet, but it will be added shortly. The reason I run both Star Compass and Silver Myr is because this deck is built to ramp out Azami, Lady of Scrolls as fast as I possibly can. I play against a lot of green and red players at my LGS and getting rocks out is important. I basically guarantee myself a T2 Azami when I go land, Sol Ring, insert any 2 mana rock that taps for blue here. Even without a turn 1 Sol Ring, rocks that tap for blue are extremely valuable to the deck regardless. They give me an edge by a turn or two to get Azami, Lady of Scrolls going. Back to Basics isn't very valuable in my meta even though I have considered it before. It feels like it will generally do more harm to me than good (I run quite a few valuable non-basics). I run Ponder and Preordain because they allow me to filter through my deck and allow me to fix any doubts of T1 mana issues (basically insurance for the early game and late game they allow me to dig). The extra turn spells are what really make this deck shine. I tend to cast and extra turn spell, draw a bunch of cards, cast another extra turn spell, and I just keep chaining these extra turns til' I win. I get the most value from them by using Snapcaster Mage and Archaeomancer. So really this deck likes to drop Azami ASAP and then play extra turn spells til' I get my win con. This all happens quite quickly considering the amount of rocks I run. Hope I answered all the questions.

It does. Thanks, but I don't think your Azami build is what we're looking for.

NarejED I know you're looking for a deck that runs all the "normal" or "most played" cards, but I can bet you they don't run nearly as quickly or efficiently as this list, which is only missing Mana Crypt, Temporal Manipulation, and Capture of Jingzhou. I humbly respect your opinion, but you're not gonna find that "perfect" list. Azami has a lot of diversity when it comes to wizard choices and build paths are really determined by your meta or play style for the deck. Thank you for the consideration though.

We're primarily trying to link decks that can be used by players in any meta, meaning that builds heavily tailored to a specific meta aren't quite as lucrative. You mentioned that a fair number of cards you're running are in because of the group you regularly play with.

Really not sure what you mean by my deck is "heavily tailored". You're one of the only people I've heard who has questioned Ponder and Preordain. Both cards are used in lots of builds on EDHREC when building Azami and tons of other mono blue commanders. As for the multitude of rocks I run that's the style of the "extra turn tribal" way of building the deck. Really the only super popular card I don't run is Patron Wizard and the only cards people sometimes question are, Stifle and Trickbind. Which they fail to realize are really good in just about any match up. So really this deck is pretty standard for a combo centered way of playing Azami. You're probably just not used to it (just sayin')