Why Sword of the Meek should legitimately be unbanned.
Modern forum
Posted on Sept. 21, 2015, 10:27 p.m. by pumpkinwavy
According to mtggoldifsh, these are the top modern decks - Affinity, Burn, Abzan, Jund, Amulet, Tron, Spliter Twin.
If Sword of the Meek was unbanned, it could go u/w, u/b, or esper, none of which are particularly present in the current meta. An unban would breath new life into these archetypes.
Wizards thinks that it would make them too good. Maybe dominate the format. But modern isn't extended, and I think all of the top decks can handle it.
Affinity struggles against 1/1 flyers. Struggles a lot against them. But affinity is resilient, and a Cranial Plating enchanted Etched Champion will seal the deal. As a plus, the thopter sword player won't be able to board in Stony Silence. I think the combo will hurt affinity the most out of all the top decks.
Burn is also hurt by multiple thopter activations. But burn is fast, and the combo is slow, and Destructive Revelry becomes totally unbeatable. Burn is already a very tough matchup for u/w or esper decks, so this would even the field.
Jund and Abzan will be delighted to Abrupt Decay that Thopter Foundry and Thoughtseize you and leave you with only one side of the combo. The combo will be a huge liability in this matchup I think.
Amulet doesn't care at all.
Tron. Another poor matchup which this combo would help, but not too much to be unfair. Tron isn't going to scoop to some 1/1s.
Splinter Twin will happily combo you when you play your combo pieces. Having Sword of the Meek and Thopter Foundry in play is very,very, good, but Deceiver Exarch + Splinter Twin is better.
This is all assuming a u/w or esper control shell with the thopter sword combo as the win-con. I guess a tezzeret tron deck could make use of it, but I don't think that's gonna break the format. This combo would breathe new life into a mostly dead archetype will giving it may weaknesses (Abrupt Decay, Stony Silence) which it did not have before. It will be powerful, but not ban worthy. Please let me know why you agree or disagree, or if there was anything I didn't think of.
Not a bad argument, but I think that Sword of the Meek would legitimately spawn a new archetype (similar to Treasure Cruise) were it unbanned, and we have no way of predicting what that might be :)
September 21, 2015 10:34 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #4
rorofat If I had to guess, that would be a Tezzeret artifacts deck, but that seems super clunky. There is always that fear of "oh it could make something broken". There could be some super powerful deck that could make use of it, but I feel that modern is powerful enough to handle whatever that is.
September 21, 2015 10:40 p.m.
NoSoyYucateco says... #5
Not saying these necessitate its banning, but Time Sieve, Disciple of the Vault, Krark-Clan Ironworks, and even Ichorclaw Myr make it quite a bit stronger.
September 21, 2015 10:41 p.m.
AngelicCookies says... #6
Krark-Clan Ironworks + Sword of the Meek + Thopter Foundry could be a good set of cards for the Eggs deck.
September 21, 2015 10:42 p.m.
slovakattack says... #7
rorofat: It would likely make the "tezzerator" archetype viable in Modern, and would likely be in esper colors.
Of all the items on the banned list, I can most see Sword of the Meek being unbanned.
A mistake people often make is referring to it as an 'infinite combo', when it is not. It gives an absurd amount of value, but can be hated out; the parts destroyed (thopter foundry can't exactly protect itself) and does not actually win you the game, unlike Twin.
September 21, 2015 10:42 p.m.
Dalektable says... #8
Also...Kolaghan's Command is a very real thing. But I agree with your post, I am hugely in favor of unbanning sword and have said so for awhile now.
September 21, 2015 10:43 p.m.
slovakattack says... #9
NoSoyYucateco: Don't forget the newly-minted Hangerback Walker! Also, it's been too long, dude! How've you been? :D
September 21, 2015 10:47 p.m.
Good points. I think that the single part that I would be hesitant about (after reviewing my comment and changing my opinion) is that there seems to be a lot more artifact digging/return in Reshape, Ancient Stirrings, and Fabricate. This could potentially make the deck unfair, but I can't say for sure.
September 21, 2015 10:52 p.m.
NoSoyYucateco says... #11
slovakattack: Howdy! Good to see you're still around. I have been on and off with my MTG playing. And yes, Hangarback Walker could be pretty great in here.
September 21, 2015 10:55 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #12
I think that this is a great format for a unbanning argument so firstly, thank you for that.
Next I think you may be forgetting about Time Sieve, with this third piece you can take infinite turns if you have 5 lands up. This seems slow but if you time it right, and resolve everything at the same time you take infinite turns easily. That's not something Wizards encourages usually so I'm not sure if that alone would cause pause to unban it.
I'd love to see it unbanned though because control in modern needs to actually be a thing, I'm tired of seeing G/R tron as the "control" deck of the format on many sites....
September 21, 2015 11:01 p.m.
CharonSquared says... #13
I agree it should be unbanned. Time Sieve is a valid argument, but I still don't think it makes Sword unbalanced because A) it's a 3-card combo and B) it requires you to have 5 mana available after you get all 3 cards into play (or a little less if you have a spare artifact or two in play already). Splinter Twin is an easier combo to assemble and it wins the game immediately. Sword/Thopter will generally require at least a few turns to make enough dudes to overwhelm and kill your opponents.
September 21, 2015 11:15 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #14
CharonSquared Your arguments are fair, I just don't know how Wizards would react with a deck like that around. There's also the drawing out games possibility. Then again I've not seen someone in a mindslaver lock (essentially infinite turns) not just scoop immediately. There's no telling really since there hasn't been an actual control deck in god knows how long.
September 21, 2015 11:19 p.m.
wwhitegoldd says... #15
Kolaghan's Command, Scavenging Ooze, Abrupt Decay, Stony Silence, and hand disruption are some of the reasons I think it shoul be unbanned.
September 21, 2015 11:20 p.m.
I don't play modern, but would it not be logical to unban the combo and just ban time sieve? I mean, when is time sieve ever going to be used where it isn't broken?
September 21, 2015 11:24 p.m.
jandrobard says... #17
Ohthenoises I just want to rephrase your point about drawing out games and point out that Second Sunrise and Top are banned because in addition to being very strong, they do slow down the game a lot. I have a sneaking suspicion that whatever deck it would spawn would be a fairly slow one.
September 21, 2015 11:34 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #18
jandrobard That is, indeed, what I meant I just said it in a shorter way.
September 21, 2015 11:43 p.m.
Thopter tokens block etched champion... Affinity would be absolutely unplayable if sword of the meek were unbanned.
September 22, 2015 12:51 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #20
I think this is an interesting argument. Maybe playtest a Sword of the Meek combo deck with a bunch of Modern tiered decks (simulated with the playtester here, for example) and see if it breaks the meta too hard.
September 22, 2015 1:01 a.m. Edited.
HorrorAvengers says... #22
My only issue with a sword unban is aggro (not tempo, aggro) is severely underrepresented as is, and thopter sword hits it so badly. Should said be unbanned, i would prefer red base aggro to get a power 2/3 drop that effectively pushes the archetype and lets it counter thopter sword. Beyond that, i would support at least suspect testing on the subject.
September 22, 2015 1:35 a.m.
JexInfinite says... #23
Sword of the Meek is in exactly the same position as Golgari Grave-Troll. It could potentially be broken, or it could be a flop, which just so happens to create another deck archetype which is tier 3 at best. Unbanning it just creates another non-broken deck.
September 22, 2015 3:01 a.m.
HorrorAvengers- don't many red decks already side/main Smash to Smithereens, Shattering Spree, Kolaghan's Command, and Destructive Revelry?
September 22, 2015 3:10 a.m.
Anyone who thinks Thopter+sword should be unbanned probably has never played with the combo.
September 22, 2015 3:37 a.m.
HorrorAvengers: Considering that both Burn and Affinity are tier 1 decks, I wouldn't really say aggro is underrepresented.
September 22, 2015 7:58 a.m.
HorrorAvengers says... #27
Affinity is definitely aggro. However, i've heard it described as such and i highly agree that burn is just as much combo as it is aggro, relying on a critical mass of spells to get the kill. Although i guess i should have clarified, what i meant was creature based aggro. Affinity is the only one. Zoo, goblins, b/r aggro, ect have very little showing, and i do feel that that's a major flaw of the format.
They do, but it often doesn't matter, the sword player getting even just 2 or 3 tokens is tough. Especially if the deck is built recursion built in. K command is a great answer imo, because it has other applications, is mainboardable, and starts to reverse the damage done.
September 22, 2015 9:54 a.m.
I've heard Affinity described as combo much more often than Burn, but that's neither here nor there really. All aggro decks require a critical mass to kill, whether it's creatures or spells. Zoo's not going to win off 2 Wild Nacatls, a Lightning Bolt and a bunch of lands. It needs a critical mass of early creatures to kill, that's just how aggro works. The fact that your preferred brand of aggro doesn't do well is fairly irrelevant. Aggro is in a good spot right now.
The other thing I'd point out is that bad matchups don't kill decks, they just relegate them to lower tiers. Elves has an appallingly bad matchup against RG Tron and Living End, but it's still solidly tier 2. Merfolk has a terrible matchup against Elves, but that doesn't make the deck bad. And Aggro would have a bad matchup against the Sword/Foundry combo, but there are other decks in the field.
September 22, 2015 10:46 a.m.
I've played both Goblins and Burn extensively, and I definitely feel like goblins is agree and burn is combo. The reason being burn needs to draw into enough burn to do 20 damage. It CAN beat the opponent down with a creature or two, but it works a LOT better if you can deal at least 10 damage with burn. Goblins, on the other hand can consistently kill with the opening hand, because it could hypothetically win with any card in the deck. You don't need any other cards to win, they just help a ton. With burn, you need to draw the correct 6 or 7 spells or you're screwed, because it's a one time thing.
September 22, 2015 11:13 a.m.
I do, however think affinity is on the border between, similar to burn, because your deck plays out a lot smoother if you can lead with some epic synergies. I haven't played affinity enough to have a solid opinion though.
September 22, 2015 11:16 a.m.
@HorrorAvengers: Creature-based aggro is under-represented? With Merfolk firmly established as a Tier 1 deck, and Elves in Tier 2? I can't agree with that. Zoo may be down, but other decks have taken its place.
As for what I think of the Sword of the Meek + Thopter Foundry combo... It's a mana-intensive 2-card combo that has the possibility of going infinite with a 3rd card (Time Sieve). That doesn't strike me as OMG UNHEALTHY FOR THE META - it's a bit harder to disrupt than Splinter Twin on the surface (though cards like Kolaghan's Command ensure that people have some mainboard tools to do so), but it's also slower and requires a 3rd card to go boom. Aggro decks like Burn (Destructive Revelry in the board), Affinity (Etched Champion, as the tokens are blue), Merfolk (Lord of Atlantis/Master of the Pearl Trident to ignore the blockers, plus Hurkyl's Recall in the board), and Elves (Ezuri, Renegade Leader's trample and Reclamation Sage) can all bypass it. So... what exactly is the problem here? As far as I'm concerned, the only issue here is that it's been banned once before, and the upside would be that Dimer (or more likely Esper) Tezzerator decks could be a thing, which would be cool to see from my vantage point.
September 22, 2015 2:32 p.m. Edited.
Menfolk is NOT tier one. Not by a long shot. Let's put it this way: In the 3 years that I've been playing modern (I've juggled decks around quite a bit) I've NEVER lost a merfolk match up. It might win a qualifier, consistently wreck FNMs, but it doesn't even compare to twin or junk.
My opinion here :)
September 22, 2015 2:39 p.m.
The numbers disagree with you, my friend. As do these. The deck's ascension into the top tier is recent (mostly fueled by some innovation within the archetype and Harbinger of the Tides), but it is undeniable. The Fish are here to stay.
And by the way, these numbers show that it consistently beats Abzan, Twin, AND Jund (those are actually its best matchups in the current meta). No opinions, just facts.
September 22, 2015 2:47 p.m. Edited.
slovakattack says... #34
Harbinger of the Tides is the real deal.
Also, Theroretical Tezzerator List, :D
Hangerback Walker makes the strategy a -lot- better.
September 22, 2015 2:58 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #35
JexInfinite creating another non-broken deck is the point!
NateJH says... #2
Pretty good argument, don't see why not.
September 21, 2015 10:29 p.m.