define cool? I made HD but its just resolve Angel and you're guaranteed to win. Pretty glass cannon but I can win with like all of the triggers on the stack. Only good thing is that exiling lab man doesnt end the combo

whats the link

Here is the link.

atraxa some hidden gem interactions should remain there.

Anyone have anything that they want to see banned?

Like, personally I'd ban all of the following: Mana Crypt, Gaea's Cradle, Leovold, Survival of the Fittest, and Tooth and Nail, but I don't think the RC shares my views.

Boy, someone dislikes green haha

yay someone who hates green. Just in time for me to try making phelddagriff t3 (t2 is a pipe dream at this point but who knows) Lets see if I can prove Sonnet's point with him

I dont feel Survival of the Fittest or T & N to be that busted. There are many decks where I wouldnt even include them due to there being much better options. Why ban them?

If you're not playing the most super cutthroat meta but just down from that (where I normally play) where people are looking to finish games about the turn 12 mark, Tooth and Nail is one of those play it and win cards. Which in turn can cause a lot of people to rage, especially if their deck was just starting to "get into the swing of it".

I really want Recurring Nightmare to be unbanned.

Hey I'm building out a Tana, the Bloodsower + Silas Renn, Seeker Adept stax list right now and I was wondering if I could get some more eyes on it to see how I'm doing. Link I haven't seen any around and I think it has some potential so I'm trying to give it a shot. This is the first real stax deck I've put together though so I'm not quite sure how it's coming along. Any constructive criticism would be very welcome. Thanks in advance.

Lol, I hadn't realized green and me didn't get along so well. Maybe I better add some rationale.

Mana Crypt is basically two colorless mox on one card, and I really don't see how that's ok. Lots of arguments against this and Sol Ring, but Sol Ring is ubiquitous enough that I'd rather just deal with it's more expensive and busted brother.

Gaea's Cradle with mana dorks is about the same level of speed as Tolarian Academy with affinity. I don't see how one is ok when the other isn't.

Survival of the Fittest is as many tutors as you want for any green based graveyard deck, and it is ridiculously easy to combo off with it. It isn't as busted as a lot of cards that are current legal in EDH, but it ruins the singleton nature of the format in a way no other tutor comes close to. Honestly, if you resolve this and don't win within one turn, you're either at a table full of hyper competitive T1 control decks, or you don't know what you're doing.

Tooth and Nail is a nine mana sorcery that says "I win the game." I just don't see how that's ok when stuff like Worldfire, Upheaval, and Coalition Victory aren't.

My thoughts on Leo have already been expressed by people higher up in the thread so w/e.

To be fair to the other colors, I could also come up with pretty decent arguments for banning Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, Doomsday, and Hermit Druid, but I didn't feel like going overboard. Plus, banning all of those would make Storm undoubtedly the best deck in the format, and trying to control Storm with a banlist would be way too restrictive. The whole thing would end up being super meta-warping, and probably is a terrible idea.

Lilbrudder, as a reanimator player Reoccurring Nightmare definitely makes me salivate too, but I can kind of see how the non-interaction issue is relevant...

HarroHunter: A man after my own heart. Stax in that combo is one of the first things I thought when I saw Tana. Here's the list I've been working on if you want ideas: Tana sans white mock up. It's still pretty rough on my end too, but this is the first time in while I've been exited to build something that came out of the commander pre-cons. I'm pretty stoked actually.

Because of the tokens nature of the stax plan, I think some must include cards are probably Cryptolith Rite and Earthcraft to break parity, and Beastmaster Ascension to beat face with. Also, Shivan Harvest is super sweet in this deck to go after your opponents' resources.

I'd suggest cutting stuff like The Abyss and Impact Tremors. Going after your opponent's resources is probably going to be more effective than incremental damage or incremental creature killing. Maybe some MLD card in their place? Or a Strip Mine & Crucible of Worlds package?

Also, I'm not sure yet, but it may be worth looking into whether might be a better color identity for Tana. White has by far the highest density of land denying Stax cards, but I'm not sure if it's worth giving up Black's tutor power. I decided to try to build the sans-white version first since Silas is infinitely more useful than Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker, but it's still something to consider I guess.

sonnet666 I completely agree with those 5 cards. The prices on Crypt and Cradle add to your reasons, but since adding 5 cards to banlist would be crazy, I think that they should just take off Coalition Victory, Worldfire, Biorhythm, and Sway of the Stars for consistency alongside the unbanned Tooth and Nail, Sorin Markov, and Magister Sphinx.

Also, I think they could take off all the scary combo pieces that combo with only 1-2 cards if they ban the fast tutors in their place. Any card that can tutor for a wide range of cards at 3 mana invested or less. More people get salty about someone tutoring up an infinite combo, not necessarily having one in their deck.

I think it would be a start, because tutoring destroys the feel the format is supposed to have regarding consistency I think.

This is all coming from someone who plays in a tier 3 environment, which is actually what I believe to be the most common worldwide for the format. I don't think a tier 1 playgroup or a tier 5 playgroup are either as likely to be encountered than a tier 3 playgroup. As for whether or not the average leans more to tier 2 or 4, i couldnt say, as even mine fluctuates pretty dramatically.

But anyways, I think banning Crypt, Cradle, Leovold, and all the best tutors to take off Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Painter's Servant, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Worldfire, Sway of the Stars, and Braids, Cabal Minion would be a step in the right direction.

Im ok with mana crypt getting banned since it is so unbelievably powerful that any deck that does not run it is significantly worse as a result. Cradle is another story. Yes it is a very powerful card but it's not for every green deck. it's a card that also promotes diversity since it rewards rewards you for going all-in on a creature based strategy, which is significantly weaker on average than a spellslinger deck. Why you guys want to ban a card that bolsters weaker decks confuses me.

Banning multiple fast combo pieces and a good portion of the best tutors in the format would be an unmitigated disaster. It would literally destroy half the competitive decks in EDH (ex. Momir vig) and any commander whose combo was not deemed offensive would instantly become horribly overpowered. These proposed changes would also push many people away from the format. Seriously why would anyone spend the money to get into this format only to have a deck you spent months or even years crafting taken away by an arbitrary banning? It is one of the many reasons why modern is dying. I stopped being interested in modern after birthing pod was banned, and it was a nightmare when they banned splinter twin. Seriously leave the format alone.

Coalition victory is to easy a win; Biorhythm is busted, board wipe, 1 creature, u win with it; worldfire is bad because it puts everyone at 1 life which is stupid; braids is not fun to play against and is op; emrakeul is debateable, he is bad only because of cheating him out; painters servant has more combos than any other card in magic and some really busted ones at that; sway of the stars is also debateable, restarts the game at 7 life which is bad.

I've always hated banning talks. It always ends up being a very emotion drivin discussion with most ban suggestions coming from "well I have a hard time beating/playing against X so it must be broken".

As for Mana Crypt it's fine. It's an accelerant no different than Sol Ring and a host of other ramp options. If we start taking those out the format devolves into Duel commander.

As far as fast starts? That's just luck for you.

I agree and have no problems with Mana Crypt. I just wouldnt be upset if it were gone since it would free up more card slots for other cards to be used in decks. With very few exceptions every CEDH deck should run a minimum of Chrome Mox Mox Diamond, Mana Crypt and Sol Ring. I enjoy fast starts as much as anyone, but its stinks to know that if I make a deck that has literally nothing to do with artifacts, it would just be better if I added those cards. I would prefer to have a bit more card choice flexibility in my brews

I've had issues making Chrome mox work in my most recent 4c brews. It's hard to make it work when you are exiling a mono colored card but playing a 4 color deck..

I feel like Chrome Mox is limited to 1-2 color decks with less use as you go up in numbers of colors.

I'm still not with you on Gaea's Cradle Lilbrudder. Sure, if you go all in on a creature based strategy it will reward you with 10+ mana, but I'm more bothered by green based combo decks that can run it and mana dorks for acceleration and get to combo mana on turns 2-4. That's not really a creature based strategy, you just happen to be using accelerants that are also creatures.

viperfang4, I think all of those cards should stay on the banlist, but it's worth pointing out that Painter's Servant actually doesn't have that many combos. The Grindstone combo is actually pretty mediocre in competitive metas. The real reason it's on the banlist is because it bothers people when you run it with Iona, Shield of Emeria as your commander.

I am thinking Zedruu the Greathearted should be moved to tier two instead of tier 3. I have seen her keep up with the tier 1 decks with that amount of enchantment an pillow fort she can do. Also seen her artifact ramp pretty hard to go off faster. She can shut down games with Hive mind/Enduring ideal. Ive seen a build that uses sensei divining top and brainstorm and use cards like terminus/entreat. It more of a control miracles build that can do a lot of harm.

It looked like an impressive build and not one that I have seen before.

sonnet666 Thanks for the suggestions most of those are definitely going in. And yea this whole time I've been thinking about how I'm missing out by not having white. Ishai is just so bad and Silas is actually useful for recurring stax pieces but I'll end up building both lists probably anyway.

Ok, couple of things.

First, the monitory value of a card should never be motivation for a ban, end of discussion. Just because you can't afford it does not mean it should not be legal in the format. I know that half the stated reason for the Moxen, and Lotus, being banned are their price point, but frankly, that's a bullshit point. The Moxen and Lotus are banned because they are fast mana with no drawbacks. Period. If price were a deciding factor, cards like Timetwister, Tabernacle, Moat, Candellabra, Mana Crypt, Chains of Meph, etc. etc would already be long banned. Because they're not, we can safely conclude that the rules committee doesn't care about the cost of a card when they're thinking about bans.

Second of all, no one is thinking about Iona when they talk about painter bans. The card is straight up busted for many different, and better, reasons than Iona.

Third of all, mana crypt doesn't need a ban. Yes, random fast stars suck when you don't have em, but they're fun as hell when you do. The format should either ban all rocks under 2 mana (probably would make sense), or leave the ones that exist and aren't yet banned alone. Banning crypt and not vault or ring doesn't make sense, and as they have been reprinting ring continuously over the last few years, they probably don't feel the need to ban crypt.

And Gaea's Cradle is easily solved with a board wipe or a strip mine effect. Absolutely no reason for a ban, just build your deck to combat it if it's in your meta. If you're losing to it and you aren't willing to change your deck a little to beat it, well, that's on you, not the card. And sure, sometimes you play cradle and you just win the game. But guess what? That happens with every other card in the format. That's basically the definition of EDH. Card doesn't deserve a ban for that.

@sonnet666:

Gaea's Cradle is nowhere near as busted as Tolarian Academy. When was the last time someone was able to tap Cradle for 4 mana on turn 1? Unless you somehow manage to get down a haste enabler, two green sources other than Cradle itself, and have a hand full of 1-drop dorks, it's not going to happen, whereas all Academy needs is Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, or Mana Crypt and any combinations of net 0-2 mana rocks to run away with the game. Academy is to Cradle as Black Lotus is to Lotus Petal. Academy is a snap include in every single deck that could possibly run it, even enabling entirely new busted decks and strategies on its own. Cradle... Cradle is only playable if you're already running a creature heavy deck, usually >25.

You hit the nail on the head with Tooth and Nail. It costs nine mana. Nine. By the time you're able to cast that, the game probably should have already been over. At that insane cost, an "I win" button is fine. Your argument against it using Coalition Victory and company don't make sense, because none of those cards should be on the banlist in the first place. They're all quite bad in comparison to options available in the format such as Laboratory Maniac.

Still tho, Mana Crypt should be banned. It's "downside" is barely relevant. It's really just two moxen stapled together.

Sol Ring should have probably been banned too, but at this point it's not worth talking about since it's in every commander pre-con, and Mana Vault is sometimes just a colorless Dark Ritual if your deck doesn't support it well, so I generally don't bring it up in banlist discussions.

And couldn't you make that same Gaea's Cradle argument for Tolarian Academy? My problem with it isn't that it can't be answered, it's that it's too easy to get to "I win" mana in combo builds before anyone can get to answer it. That kind of acceleration really shouldn't be on a land.

And just to be nitpicky: A couple of things means two things. That was four things. That's two things too many.

NarejED:

"because none of those cards should be on the banlist in the first place."

...In your opinion.

You're a competitive player. (Stop me if I'm wrong.) In terms of cEDH I win buttons like Tooth and Nail and Coalition Victory are no big deal. If you have nine mana in cEDH you deserve to win the game.

Problem is, Commnader is a social format and has to support different levels of competition. You call that inconsistency and say cards should come off, but that's because you're looking at it purely competitive viewpoint. The thing is, the banlist doesn't have the luxury of doing that. The banlist has to serve all types of play.

A Sway of the Stars is super problematic in a game that's being played for enjoyment, because it takes everything that happened in the game up to that point and makes it as if it never happened. It invalidates the player's experience by saying the fun you were just having doesn't matter, because we're just going to restart, and the game we're restarting to is going to be short and miserable. People's definition of fun does vary, but making people's experiences irrelevant is pretty un-fun for most people, and that is why Sway of the Stars is on the banlist. (Same with Worldfire, Upheaval, etc.)

To me (and I think to a lot of other people as well) Tooth and Nail does the same thing. If it resolves it says that whatever game was being played is over, and this guy won because he happened to have this one card. The end.

That is why I think it should be banned. I know it's not a problem competitively.