How much card drawing is too much?
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Oct. 5, 2017, 8:41 a.m. by JamesR404v2
Hi there!
Inspired by this article https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/decks-like-deaths-shadow-will-always-become-the-best-deck/ I am building a Sultai control deck from scratch, I especially would like to have plenty of scry and draw cards like Serum Visions, Grim Flayer, a Sultai Ascendacy, etc etc...
Now, at what stage is card drawing and scrying too much? Even if I decide I want to add "a lot" of it to the deck, at some point if all the cards I draw allow me to draw cards, but not do anything, I'll lose the game really quickly...
This will be a Modern deck.
What do you feel is a good amount of card draw/scrying to add to a deck? And what would be the highest amount you'd still be comfortable with playing?
Please let me know about your experiences and thoughts
I think going as far as to include Sultai Ascendancy is probably too far. Serum Visions, Opt, Cryptic Command and Grim Flayer should be fine (especially with Snapcaster Mage), and Think Twice is also passable if you're playing hard control.
October 5, 2017 9:45 a.m.
landofMordor says... #4
Ditto to the above comment. CCommand is probably asking too much in a 3-color manabase, but only hard control needs to go so far as dedicating 10-12 slots to draw. For a midrange build, 4-6 plus Snappy sounds sufficient. Although, playtesting and plenty of it will be the final answer, here.
October 5, 2017 10:09 a.m.
I don't know how to answer your question Directly but I can give you insight on my deckbuilding experience.
Imo with the exception of using miracle spells like Temporal Mastery or Quest for Ula's Temple and similar drawing cards is far more useful/powerful than top deck manipulation. Unless you have a way to play the top card of your library like Future Sight
In sultai colors do not underestimate the power of Coiling Oracle its Both "draw" and or puts out an extra land... It's just a fantastic 2drop.
October 5, 2017 10:10 a.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #6
I've actually done pretty thorough testing on grixis with the same question.
My grixis deck has high incentive to be playing 4x Faithless Looting (because it plays Bloodghast). And serum visions has anyways been the staple cantrip you have to play. However, the deck plays snapcaster mage and tasigur, so thought scour is a pretty natural choice as well.
So, one day I jammed all 12 cantrips into the deck and it didn't go well. A lot of games were spent drawing to nowhere. To win in magic you need to develop your half of the game better than your opponent's. Cantrips sculpt a hand, but they inherently do nothing. The burn deck that plays 7 burn spells in the first 4 turns will kill you no matter how good of cantrips you're playing because cantrips can't stop burn spells and they can't kill creatures.
12 cantrips is too many. Personally I would max at 10, but only if you're playing a really low-to-the-ground deck. If you're trying to play cards that cost 3 or 4 mana, then you can probably get away with 9, but no more.
Things that draw that aren't cantrips are in a bit of a different spot. Grim flayer as the example you gave. Snapcaster mage and kolaghan's command are also good examples. These cards can be run alongside cantrips effectively, but keep in mind that by providing card value, they do less than other cards (they still interact, but less effectively). These cards it's much harder to place a max number on how many to play, especially because it's card-specific. Learn how many of these is too many by playtesting.
Sultai ascendancy is very bad. Do not play it.
October 5, 2017 10:15 a.m.
Dunno how much card draw is enough, or too much. Depends a lot on what you draw, I guess. But for many midrange'y decks, other ways to gain card advantage exist. Snapcaster Mage doesn't draw you a card, as such, but gives you the advantage of a repetition of the best spell in your graveyard. Courser of Kruphix also doesn't draw you cards - but makes sure that you don't just draw lands all the time. Eternal Witness is almost the same as drawing a card and getting a creature (so there's some advantage there). I would consider this kind of card advantage before draw-spells, with a few exceptions - Opt is an exception, so is Serum Visions. Thought Scour too, if in a deck that can make something out of spells in the graveyard.
I remember playing Think Twice in innistrad-standard, and that was great, but in modern, you can only use it in a very devoted draw-go control deck. I have no clue how well Ancestral Vision would work in sultai, but it could be good.
Cards that don't do anything, apart from scrying or drawing should be really cheap - 1 mana, perhaps 2 (and then not very many). Sultai Ascendancy is a horrible card - you play it, for 3 colored mana, and then it doesn't do anything (or does nothing, which isn't the same), until your next upkeep, where you get to chose between the top 2 cards of your library, and maybe put 1 in the graveyard.
October 5, 2017 11:48 a.m.
JamesR404v2 says... #8
Hey, wow, thanks everyone for all the feedback!
I hear card drawing is really preferred above top-deck manipulation, unless one can abuse the top deck manipulation. One says max 10 cards that draw cards, the other says max 10-12.
I think I'll have to stick with ten card drawing cards. ...
Also higher casting cost card drawers are frowned upon. I was thinking of Sultai Ascendancy, but also of Bounty of the Luxa. Everyone seems to think it's shit, so now I will probably play none of those. :D
Coiling Oracle, duh, I knew I forgot some critter. That is definitely a nice cantrip.
Okay, so I'll play ten card drawing cards, in Sultai I think the best choices for card drawing are then like;
4x Serum Visions
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Sleight of Hand ?
1x Opt ?
To have a reliable mana base, I'm limiting to cards that I can cast with BBUG. (So I can include Damnation, but I can't play Cryptic Command nor Eternal Witness). If that's wise, I duno, but it's a starting point. I hate getting mana screwed or mana flooded, so I am willing to play less stronger cards to avoid that. With 3 colours I think there are plenty of good cards to play, even if I limit myself in mana cost like this.
So, having those drawing spells, I'll probably still add some more creatures that help to create options, 2x? Snapcaster Mage, 4x? Grim Flayer and 3x? Coiling Oracle.
I'll see :) One of these days I'll "finalise" the decklist and buy it all, I can share my play experiences here - on the topic of "how much card drawing" is the right amount :)
October 6, 2017 7:16 a.m.
JamesR404v2 says... #9
1x Search for Azcanta instead of the Opt. I think this card will see a lot of play.
October 6, 2017 7:35 a.m.
Search for Azcanta will maybe be good standard, but for most modern decks, it's too slow. In sultai, really no. First due to being slow - would you really spend your mana for turn 2, doing a slight adjustment to your draw in turn 3 - sort out one bad topdeck? Or would it be possible to have better things to do on turn 2?
Second: Sultai has some really good delve cards. But if you play those, you spend the cards in your graveyard on that, rather than flipping Search for Azcanta
October 6, 2017 8:33 a.m.
JamesR404v2 says... #11
Thanks xyr0s, I like how this thread is preventing me from playing bad cards ;P
October 6, 2017 12:35 p.m.
ToolmasterOfBrainerd says... #12
Ancestral Vision is a card to be careful with. Suppose you cast it on turn 1. Then you'll probably be doing very well starting turn 4, but until then you're playing with 1 less card than your opponent and 1 less mana. This meta feels like it's slowing down a bit (lots of control decks), but playing behind on turns 1-3 is always risky. Ancestral Vision is very good, but playing it comes at the cost that the rest of your deck must be low to the ground and accessible in the first few turns. I wouldn't play 4.
Search for Azcanta and Sleight of Hand are not good for Sultai. Sleight of hand is good in combo decks, but not midrange. If your deck plays at instant speed with counterspells then Opt is very good but if you're mostly just jamming Tarmogoyf and Tasigur, then Thought Scour is a much better choice.
Coiling Oracle is bad. 2 mana draw a card and chump block isn't what you want to be doing in modern.
Limiting mana to BBUG pushes you towards midrange rather than control. What style of deck do you intend on building?
October 6, 2017 3:29 p.m.
JamesR404v2 says... #13
Hi there, this is the weirdness I'm thinking off; http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/06-10-17-sultai-control/spoiler/?main-order=cost&side-order=type
I just threw it together... so I am sure there are some things where we can critique, but constructively please :D
October 6, 2017 3:53 p.m.
Traverse the Ulvenwald is a nice card, but you'll have a harder time deliriazing it than you think. I'm only counting 6 lands you can sac, 1 artifact, and whether you get creatures to help with the delirium count is questionable. But actually, it is a cantrip in your deck, in regard to the question of how much card draw is too much.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury... hmmm... 4 mana for a 2/3 creature, with an ability that is only sometimes relevant. Feels great, if you get to steal Tarmogoyfs and Fatal Pushes, not so great when you get to play a Lantern of Insight. Also, you only have 1 land to support your opponents colors, so it wouldn't be very often you could play red or white cards.
Quicksilver Fountain - the dream of a lategame lockout is real! However, this is not how you do it. It also hits your lands, right? So you either have spend a card on smashing it, or it will lock you and your 3-color manabase out eventually... I think you could make a janky deck with this, but then it should be the focus of the deck, not just a throw-in. Also, watch out for playing cards that have no real effect for many turns - in general that is not good. Mimic Vat could be funny. I don't think Trophy Mage to find your 3 cmc artifacts is correct though - neither of them are essential to your winning strategy, and you have a pile of card filtering/drawing/cantripping anyway.
Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip could be a funny addition to your deck - just 1. Card draw, an accompanying token-creature, a built in win-con... what's not to like? Maybe exchange some land for another basic forest.
jjadned says... #2
Enough is never enough! Just make sure you can win the game still.
October 5, 2017 8:52 a.m.