My playgroup has a divide on house bannings
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on June 29, 2016, 3:12 a.m. by Skybound
The main cards I will refer to throughout are Sol Ring, Bribery, and Cyclonic Rift. I, and a number of my friends feel, that not only does it get very tiring seeing these cards every single game, but they destroy deck construction, provide a much to powerful tempo swing, and are generally provide a less creative experience, as it seems that every deck running blue must include those cards. To put it into perspective in my playgroup, two decks have run Bribery, and FIVE decks have run Cyclonic Rift. I, and several of my friends think they deserve their rest, but others disagree, namely, the one who has all of these cards in the same deck. But because there exists a pre-existing ban list, apparently house rules mean nothing.
Basically, what I am asking is, if anyone else has been in a similar position, what do you do to resolve it? Just suck it up, or refuse to play if they have these cards in their deck?
Not every deck is Blue. I do build around Bribery, but there is no answer to Cyclonic Rift outside of countering it. The answer I always get is "Just play them again", but the amount of tempo lost is gamebreaking for one card to perform. Plus the fact that blue has the most instant recursion in the game doesn't help.
June 29, 2016 3:36 a.m.
I look at these situations as puzzles to solve that keep the game interesting.
Sol ring: artifact hate, steal effects, (if an opponent uses their removal on this then they didn't use it on you)(and they probably became an early target which may allow you to build an early board presence)
Bribery: steal back, removal, bounce, Counterspells, whatever they took probably will be less of a threat in their strategies than in the card owner's strategies so your overall threat is less
Cyclonic rift: counterspells, run etb creatures to gain value from it, fog effects, recognizing the politics of one of your opponents making an aggressive move that will start rivalries for you to play off of and in to
I would be careful about the mindset of banning challenges instead of learning and adapting to them.
June 29, 2016 3:39 a.m.
Refusing to play if they have those cards in the deck is the wrong wy about it. You do not build decks so that you evade possibilities to play them.
Just because there is a preexisting banlist does not mean there should not be house rules on top of it. That is like saying a director saying that a movie's theatrical release is the correct version, instead of his vision - the director's cut.
My group have banned mass LD because it does nothing to advance the game forward, but drags it down. Cyclonic Rift does not have that problem - you can replay those cards and it gives one person a huge advantage if they have even a modiicum of board presence, accelerating the game state. Evil, but a necessary one.
June 29, 2016 3:45 a.m.
There is many other cards that do almost the same things as cyclonic rift does... If you play a mono blue combo control deck you simply won't care about bouncing everything until you can assemble a combo. I don't even play Bribery because it does nothing to advance my game plan. There is just bounce in blue. Do you complain about white /black /red boardwipes too? Some of them can be played for the same cmc instant speed... But you will not get your cards back. There are boardwipes that are staples in other colours too. IMHO you seem to be overreacting, but if it is cool to your playgroup just go with it
June 29, 2016 5:04 a.m.
mathimus55 says... #7
There was an article I read a few months back and can't find it talking about how every deck needs a way to actually close out the game. Sure setting up huge and cool board states are fun, but when everyone is doing that, eventually you get to some sort of board stall. Cyclonic Rift and its brethren are needed so that some decks have a way to actually win instead of just durdle. Are there other ways to win than just this card? Yes! Do people need to actually use these other cards and be more creative? For sure. I have no problem with Rift since I hate 2+ hour games, cards like it give you a chance to start all over again.
Like what was already said, Bribery is only as good as you allow it to be. If you only have so-so creatures in your deck the card will only be so so. If you're playing an overpowered deck with lots of powerful creatures chances are you have a way to deal with just one of them being stolen. If you have lots of powerful creatures and more than one opponent plays Bribery effects on you, chances are you are playing above the other players in the group anyways, so can you really be so mad about it?
Sol Ring is one of the few cards that gives the ability to have explosive starts to decks without green in them. It's hard to keep up with Nature's Lore and Cultivate if you're playing Rakdos colors or are mono colored, so maybe instead of "no Sol Ring" maybe limit the types of decks that can play it? It would make sure whoever is playing Omnath, Locus of Mana isn't oppressively blasting out inappropriate amounts of mana turn 4 but the person playing WR isn't punished at the same time. Just a suggestion.
June 29, 2016 5:51 a.m.
PepsiAddicted says... #8
Its always sol ring, never crypt. Makes perfect sense /sigh
house rules Trying to balance the game by making it more twisted
June 29, 2016 6:52 a.m.
Megalomania says... #9
My playgroup sticks with the pre-existing ban list. We feel it is the best way to keep the ban list "honest" and impersonal.
June 29, 2016 6:53 a.m.
buildingadeck says... #10
Cyclonic Rift being banned just means that the mono-blue player simply gets less optimal cards like Devastation Tide. Banning Rift is actually oppressive to blue players because Blue has so little in way of mass removal (no Wrath of God, Damnation, or Obliterate effects in blue). So I highly disagree with this.
Sol Ring has been printed a billion times and is easily acceptable. Banning Ring means that if someone has more financing to pick up Mana Crypt, Grim Monolith, etc, then everyone falls behind by a larger margin, and you have to ban all accelerants. As stated above, non-green decks need a way to not fall terribly behind on mana.
Bribery is so easily counteracted that I have no pity there. Removal, Homeward Path, Leyline of Sanctity... There are infinite ways of dealing with what is essentially a one-for-one steal.
June 29, 2016 9:06 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #11
Wrong answers:
- Add them to a house banlist. If we make our own decisions on the rules of the game, two things will happen: we will be unable to provide feedback on what the official rules are lacking and we prevent ourselves from growing as players by adapting to problematic cards.
- Get angry at or shame those who play the "bad" cards. Everyone wants to have fun, so if someone plays a legal card in honesty (not cheating), shaming them or getting angry/salty only takes away from your fun and theirs. On top of that, an argument could be made that it's more than unfun, but morally questionable too, but this is probably not the place for such a discussion.
- Refuse to play against those cards. This answer is the worst of both of the previous answers as it has all of the downsides of the above solutions, with less upside since you get to play fewer games.
Possibly correct solutions:
- Civilly and honestly communicate with the person in question. Very few people will respond to an appeal from a friend with stubbornness or denial. If you communicate, "Hey, when you play Armageddon every game, this makes the games unfun because you remove the possibility for anyone else to win, which is why people play in the first place," how can someone disagree or refuse to discuss the situation?
- Have a range of power levels among your decks. Not everyone likes playing durdly decks, and not everyone likes playing cutthroat decks. This is my favorite option as you can bring out stricter decks against competitive players to even the playing field and bring out sillier decks against more laid back players to ensure everyone gets to have fun.
- Communicate your issues directly to the commander rules committee. In a perfect world, the RC knows to make the perfect banlist, rules, etc., but we don't live in a perfect world. If you feel strongly enough that Sol Ring/Mana Crypt makes oppressive decks more oppressive, let the people who make the official rules know so that when that new player shows up, he doesn't have cards on the "house banlist" in his deck, or worse, object to following unofficial rules in place of official rules.
I hope I have been able to shed some light on what I believe to objectively be the consequences of different responses to these kind of situations.
June 29, 2016 10:05 a.m.
In my experience the answer (which is not necessarily the best answer) is to just suck it up and deal with the cards you find oppressive. My playgroup is very open to using powerful cards and doesn't mind rules being broken so long as it's not abusive. I've one friend who continues to play Braids, Cabal Minion in his 99 even though I repeatedly told him it was banned. The rest of my playgroup didn't mind it, so I've had to suck it up and deal with it. Another friend loves to play Armageddon (followed by Wrath) even though it wrecks games every time. I've had to suck it up and play around it. Lastly, a third friend has complained that Sol Ring makes openings too unbalanced if you get it in the starting seven. But everyone else in the playgroup (myself included) thinks it's fine so he's gotta suck it up and deal. Moving away from partial mulligans has helped in that regard to make it harder to keep a Sol Ring while mulliganing.
Ultimately I've had to make my decks more powerful in order to keep up with the decks that run strong tempo cards. I've had to cut some pet cards that I enjoyed playing but weren't "good enough" but it's also pushed me to find what's better or worse about my decks too. I'll be taking some of the fun cards I cut and making a separate low-key cmdr deck that I can play in more casual environments.
June 29, 2016 11:32 a.m.
AlexoBn Red, Black, White board wipes typically affect all sides of the board, save for the 9+ mana sweepers in black. Not only that, most of them are sorcery speed, and do not have the flexibility that Cyclonic Rift has. I have no problem with Devastation Tide, or Crush of Tentacles because they seem perfectly balanced.
buildingadeck Blue has mass removal. You just gave an example. Blue has tonnes. Devastation Tide, Crush of Tentacles, AEtherspouts, AEtherize, Evacuation Inundate Wash Out Whelming Wave Thousand Winds. The only difference is that they affect both sides of the board, and most of the unconditional ones are sorcery speed. I have no problem whatsoever with these cards because they seem perfectly fair.
June 29, 2016 1:43 p.m.
buildingadeck says... #14
That isn't removal, though, because nothing is gone. Everything can be replayed, which is blue's weakness. Rift is balanced because it's a 7 mana instant that only bounces things. And the RW ones only kill your things if you're not playing right (ie no Darksteel Forge, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Zurgo Helmsmasher, and so on). No one is saying it's a bad card, but so far there hasn't been a person who finds it broken; that should tell you something.
June 29, 2016 1:59 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #15
Tying into the conversation...
Sol Ring = Every EDH deck should be playing this. I can't think of any reason a deck wouldn't. So, just because someone has it opening hand and you don't, that's just part of magic. Tough shit.
Bribery = My question...so? They steal a creature. Oh well, either A) don't play creatures overly busted, B) play removal, C) play counter magic, D) play faster so that Bribery doesn't matter.
Cyclonic Rift = I can see where you are coming from and every time I see a Blue player tutor for it via Muddle the Mixture or Merchant Scroll (or etc...), I'm not thrilled, but hey, it's a good card. And it's the same concept of a Board wipe, don't overextend as to cripple you from replaying all your spells the following turn, don't allow it to be the spell that kills you, have an answer... Leave mana open, play instants in your deck to prevent them from winning. Perfect example, the moment they play Rift, if they're playing a combo deck, get rid of their combo in response so you can have a chance to rebuild.
June 29, 2016 3:26 p.m.
readerrw07 says... #16
I can give input on Bribery. Homeward Path No color identity, run it in everything that has a game-ending creature in the 99
June 29, 2016 5:05 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #17
I have the stance that in casual metas Sol Ring is an unnecessary tempo and mana boost on the first turn that quickly leads to impossible odds in a 3 player pod. Ring adds almost nothing to a game of EDH aside from terrible imbalance (just personal opinion). Rift and Bribery seem fine to me. Planar Cleansing does more or less the same thing, aside from instant speed and asymmetry. Rift is Blue's big payoff, and one of the only ways for it to get back in a game of EDH. That said, if you don't like it, try and talk to your friend and get him to play another card. But rift is not overly oppressive and degenerate like Ring. It's just a good card. You can come back from it. Think of it like Time Stretch.
June 29, 2016 8:25 p.m.
buildingadeck says... #18
Dredge4life: Well-constructed decks will have more than just Sol Ring for mana rocks. Yes, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are the best ones, but you don't fall too far behind playing a T2 Rock. I never feel like I've lost the game when a T1 Sol Ring occurs on an opponent's field.
June 29, 2016 10:14 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #19
I understand the majority of players don't feel this way. My statement only reflects my personal opinion, and my experiences. The OP is discussing the banning of these cards and I'm saying why I think it's a good idea or a bad one. Apologize if this comes off as rude just trying to clarify my statement.
June 29, 2016 10:32 p.m.
My group had a problem like this before Prophet of Kruphix got banned. We had one person who played prophet in every single deck he had and every game he took 20 minute turns at the end of everybody else's turn. Whenever we dealt with prophet(which wasn't hard) he would complain and ruin the game. We tried talking to him about but he refused to change anything. In the end we just took a vote and went with majority rules. Did it suck for the prophet player? yes but after that he got the point and his decks got more creative and fun to play against. Maybe not the best idea but it's something you could think about.
July 13, 2016 7:09 p.m.
I should also mention that we compromised by letting him ban a card that he hated(within reason) so we ended up having Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir banned as well. Probably not a perfect solution but it worked for us.
sirbar says... #2
Play counter spells. Or learn to build around the cards in general. They are good but not oppressive. Bribery is only as good as you make it. Cyclonic rift costs 7 mana to overload. Spells that expensive should win the game. And will sol ring, well it's just good, but anyone can run it.
June 29, 2016 3:25 a.m.