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Nemata, Grove Guardian
Legendary Creature — Treefolk
(2)(Green): Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play.
Sacrifice a Saproling: Saproling creatures get +1/+1 until end of turn.
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Nemata, Grove Guardian Discussion
2 months ago
So, as a blunt overall comment: your token deck needs more token generators. If you're using Sporesower Thallid, there are a bunch of other decent Thallid synergy cards that would generate tokens. Thelon of Havenwood, Sporoloth Ancient, Utopia Mycon, Savage Thallid. Nemata, Grove Guardian and Verdeloth the Ancient might be good options.
3 months ago
A few combo cards I didn't include but are potentially very powerful:
Concordant Crossroads, an extremely (mana) inexpensive way to give haste to all creatures. NOTE: This includes opposing creatures, so be sure of when you want to cast it, as it could backfire in a spectacular way.
Cryptolith Rite: On its own, and in my current list, it's pretty underwhelming considering it turns your guys into Birds of Paradise. When combined with Nemata, Grove Guardian and Verdeloth the Ancient it quickly turns into a mana engine that can't be beat.
Temur Sabertooth: Combine this with Cryptolith Rite, Verdeloth, and Akromas Memorial/Concordant Crossroads, and you have infinite creatures and mana! Add in Paradox Engine and you win the game that turn!
Dosan the Falling Leaf: Missing from the main 99 because the group I play with is generally low power. This legend from Kamigawa is the way to enable things like Cryptolith Rite and Paradox Engine without fear. Tutor him up at the end of your opponents turn before you start your turn and feel free to combo off with impunity!
City of Solitude: A slower Dosan but with less removal targeting it. Unfortunately in this deck it cannot be tutored easily (if at all), but it provides the same kind of protection as Dosan.
3 months ago
odd card for a back up general for you - Nemata, Grove Guardian works really well as a mana sink.
5 months ago
I definitely want to keep my focus on Token Generators, which is why I have so many slow inefficient saproling generators, thank you for pointing that out. I will probably remove them for more ramp, lands, and/or card draw. I really like have 40 lands because missing a land drop/mulliganing gives me a severe case of the feelbads, but things got really cramped really quickly.
Nemata, Grove Guardian is one of my pet cards that kind of helped inspire the deck, but you do have a point. I want to add Phyrexian Altar eventually, but I cut it for ramp over fixing (might have been the wrong choice). Bearscape because I subed it for Night Soil, but wanted to keep the card in mind just in case. The maybeboard is a hot mess, sorry about that. Warstorm Surge works with my anthems, so it can potentially be deadly. But, rereading the card, I will probably sub that out for Purphoros, God of the Forge. I don't know where he went, he is definitely one of my upgrade cards. I chose Elspeth, Knight-Errant over Elspeth, Sun's Champion because I felt like her wipe could backfire a lot with all my anthems. Same reason why Mentor of the Meek isn't in here. My meta has creature hate and counterspells more than anything else. Utter End and Anguished Unmaking float around a little, but the big thing that everyone likes is Cyclonic Rift because it's Cyclonic Rift, that's why I thought Kessig Cagebreakers would be good, but I won't know until I get to test it. I liked Beacon of Creation because it goes back into the library and its a static cost. Does it not count duals as forests? if so, then best case would be 9, which still isn't enough. I will take it out for White Sun's Zenith. But, depending on how many Saprolings I can make, I might rather try and combo Beacon with Life and Limb. What do you think?
I was looking through my collections and found Goblin Assault and would love your thoughts on this.
I appreciate the discussion, you are really helping me think in different directions!
8 months ago
Out of experience, Kazandu Tuskcaller is a really fragile creature. I'd try a different token-maker like Ant Queen or Nemata, Grove Guardian. Also, you should look at Essence Warden's white sisters: Soul Warden and Soul's Attendant. You could cut some of your other weaker lifegainers/damage preventers like Heroes' Reunion and/or Fog to make room. Good luck with the deck!
9 months ago
Stop rushing me guys...
- The Locust God - T2.5: We already have a working infinite mana deck made by Gigi. The fact that it needs colored mana limits the deck's options a bit, and makes it a little Glass-Cannon-y. The token it makes are also good fodder for Skullclamp to dig for your combo. T2.5 is a good place.
- The Scorpion God - T3 - Also an infinite mana game, but needs a bit more setup and is in weaker colors. The fact that he can pick off utility creatures and draw you cards while you set gives him decent utility. Middle of the road in T3.
- The Scarab God - T3 - Not terribly useful, but is a solid Nooze commander, and is a good finisher if anyone can think up any infinite Zombie combos. Lower end of T3.
- Djeru the Purified - T4 or 5 - Not sure yet. As merrowMania pointed out, he's a guarantied Karn or Ugin, but that's still a 5 mana tutor in the command zone that doesn't get the PW out right away. He's also in the weakest solo color identity. I feel this is more T5, but I'll leave it up to you guys.
- Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign - T4 - Draws you cards, changelings and blink effects might round this out a little, and he draws your deck if you go infinite with a sac outlet. Mono-blue is also strong enough to support a mediocre commander.
- Razaketh, the Foulblooded - T1.5 - I made a deck that wins on turns 3 to 4. Need I say more?
- Neheb, the Eternal - T3 - I've already seen some decent decklists that turn stuff like Heartless Hidetsugu into massive red X spells. At the very least his Afflict ability means he's a 3 mana ramp spell in the command zone. Seems good for T3. (viperfang4, If you wan't this to go higher you'll have to make a decklist. Krenko, Kiki, and Zada are already good combo decks, and none of them have been able to break out of T3 because of the weaknesses of mono-Red.)
- Fixed Grenzo link
- If no one objects, I'm going to add the Rishkar list I made to T3. It came out really nicely I think, and somehow I doubt anyone else is going to brew a Rishkar list anytime soon.
- Also adding my Lyzolda, the Blood Witch, as I don't think it's likely that anyone else is building her. (There are several high rated Lyzolda decks on T/O, but none are cEDH builds.)
- I'm going to add this deck I found as our Glissa, the Traitor deck:
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 79 | 48 COMMENTS | 18404 VIEWS | IN 48 FOLDERS
I don't think it's 100% optimized, but it's very close, and it has a lovely primer that goes over the fundamentals of Stax. (Also, having a Glissa list by somebody named Perfect_Phyrexia is to flavorful to pass up.)
- Added Gigi's Locust God list. Masterful also posted a list that was a good contender, but I felt it was a little too muddled in extra win conditions, and Gigi's seemed more straightforward.
- My Razaketh deck is about as perfect as I can make it. I can add it to the deckles section, but I'd like to get people's approval first. I know other people are trying this one, and as NarejED pointed out a while back, it's unhealthy for this project if the people who run it are overrepresented in its resources.
- Added DiabolicEsper's Scorpion God list.
- Added Gigi's more suped up Kozilek, Butcher of Truth list. He had the primer ready to go and everything. Im surprised he didn't put this up sooner.
- Added HezTheGod's Braids list.
Not sure if anyone's noticed (Nvrm, you noticed), but I added a TierBanned decklists section. I thought it would be neat to be able to show people what the banned commanders' decks might look like if we were allowed to play them. So far it only contains thegigibeast's Griselbrand storm list and Lilbrudder's old Leovold list, but anyone who wants to make a hypothetical decklist is welcome to.
The only rule is you can't use other banned cards in the 99, because that would be unrealistic compared to the other decklists in the description. The point is to see how the banned commanders would stack up as cEDH commanders, not how broken it's possible make the format with no banlist. There isn't much competition on cEDH decklists for banned commanders, so if you think you can make a good one then have at it. (Dibs on Rofellos.)
I've also added a new tier. As I'm sure you're all aware, we're going to be getting a new Un-set soon, Unstable. In preparation for the momentous occasion, I have added TierInsanity to the list! It fits right below TierBanned, so the layout of the list won't be affected. Since they are not legal in commander Un-legendary decklists can also fit in the TierBanned section. I will be adding lists for them as soon as I find people crazy enough to make them. (I found a funny Richard Garfield, Ph.D. deck floating around this site already, but I'd be happy with a new submission that actually tries to optimize the deck. Interestingly, an optimized Richard seems like it would actually need to play a lot of expensive cards, since you need to make it to 5 mana before you can use his ability.)
Also, a few pieces useful information on the un-commanders you should use if you're going to make a decklist:
- Frankie Peanuts cannot keep a player from conceding or force them to concede. Players can concede an any time, and this is outside of all game rules, Un or otherwise. Maro has specified this. Multiple times.
- Frankie Peanuts also does not force a player to reveal hidden information, or use hidden information to abide by the answer given. Source
- Richard Garfield can't let you cast cards as if they were cards that are banned in commander. Source
- For now at least, lets say that all of the cards in the 99 have to be black border. It would be too confusing otherwise.
Ohthenoises pointed out in comment that it might be worthwhile to consolidate a list of every commander that can be used to win the game as a outlet for infinite mana. I went through the list and here are the results:
- Thrasios, Triton Hero (colorless)
- Prossh, Skyraider of Kher (With sac outlet)
- General Tazri (With sac outlet)
- Tasigur, the Golden Fang
- Sidisi, Undead Vizier
- Breya, Etherium Shaper
- Sidisi, Brood Tyrant (With sac outlet)
- Sliver Queen (colorless)
- Oona, Queen of the Fae (colorless)
- Nin, the Pain Artist (colorless)
- Marath, Will of the Wild
- Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (colorless)
- Ghave, Guru of Spores
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician (With sac outlet)
- Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed (Needs a finishing black spell to function) (Hard to interact with)
- Sakashima the Impostor (Needs a creature to copy with an ETB, LTB, or cast trigger to function)
- Oloro, Ageless Ascetic (Needs infinite life gain triggers to function)
- Kefnet the Mindful
- Kamahl, Fist of Krosa (Needs Creatures to function)
- Jazal Goldmane (Needs Creatures to function)
- Geth, Lord of the Vault (Needs an artifact or creature in each opponent's graveyards to function)
- Ezuri, Renegade Leader (Needs Elves to function)
- Depala, Pilot Exemplar
- Daxos the Returned (Needs Haste or grave storm to win same turn)
- Arcanis the Omnipotent (Needs Haste to function)
- The Scorpion God (Needs specific creatures)
- Reaper King (With sac outlet)
- Omnath, Locus of Rage (With sac outlet)
- Ambassador Laquatus (colorless)
- Bosh, Iron Golem
- Heliod, God of the Sun (Needs haste to win same turn)
- Ishkanah, Grafwidow
- Kaseto, Orochi Archmage (Only kills one player a turn)
- Lyzolda, the Blood Witch
- Nemata, Grove Guardian (needs Haste to win same turn)
- Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
- Nylea, God of the Hunt (Needs Creatures to function)
- Oketra the True (Needs haste to win same turn)
- Rhonas the Indomitable (Needs Creatures to function)
- Ulasht, the Hate Seed
- Verdeloth the Ancient (Colorless) (Needs Haste to win same turn)
- Gonti, Lord of Luxury (With sac outlet)
- Maga, Traitor to Mortals (With sac outlet) (partly colorless)
- Pia and Kiran Nalaar (With sac outlet)
- Vela the Night-Clad (With sac outlet)
- Yosei, the Morning Star (With sac outlet)
- Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign (With sac outlet)
- Kumano, Master Yamabushi
- Latulla, Keldon Overseer (Only kills one player a turn) (Needs cards in hand to function)
- Obzedat, Ghost Council (With sac outlet)
- Ghost Council of Orzhova (With sac outlet)
Interesting things to note about the results here:
There are far more of them than I expected in the lower tiers, specifically T4. I'm probably going to make some adjustments based on this.
"With a sac outlet" just means some way to remove the commander so you can recast it. Food Chain counts.
"Colorless" commanders mean you only need an unlimited amount of colorless mana to win. This is always going to be an edge for that commander, since making infinite colorless mana is possible in every color identity, and is a lower barrier to entry.
A lot of the commanders in the upper tiers have more effecient strategies that make infinite mana game plans unnecessary. For instance, it doesn't really matter that infinite mana wins you the game with Sidisi, Undead Vizier.
Based on evaluating commanders off of infinite mana gamelans, and my review of the lower tiers, I've decided to make some general upkeep adjustments to the lower tiers.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast, Moved to T4: She has a combo that blows up all non-creature permanents and is tutorable in her color. Not great, but better than useless.
Sakiko, Mother of Summer Moved to T4: That's a lot of ramp. I'm sure there are some green shenanigans that can capitalize on that. CMC 6 is a little hefty for the effect, but she's not uncastable.
Triad of Fates, Moved to T4: There's actually a surprising amount of ways to speed up this ability, from Thousand-Year Elixir to Illusionist's Bracers and Oblivion Stone to Eye of Doom. With a black/white color identity it's reasonable to have enough tutors to se them every game, and then you have a draw engine / creature removal option that can help you dig for combos. Not the greatest, but I think T4 is a better fit.
Obzedat, Ghost Council and Ghost Council of Orzhova, Both moved to T4: I'm a bit hesitant on these guys, since a while back I vehemently argued that they should stay right where they are, but if you look at them from an infinite mana perspective, and not as incremental life drain engines, then they suddenly become a lot less janky. They have a lot of hoops to jump through, needing both infinite colored mana AND a sacrifice outlet to remove themselves, but seeing as the best infinite mana combos in Black/White tend to use sac outlets already, it's probably enough to bump these two to T4.
Kumano, Master Yamabushi, Possible move to T4: Not sure on this one. On one hand, infinite mana is a guaranteed win. On the other, few combos in mono-Red, almost 0 tutors, and he's completely useless outside of the combo. Could be T4? Maybe? Tell me what you think guys.
Ambassador Laquatus, Moved to T3: Blue is one of the best infinite mana colors right now, with Basalt/Rings, Dramatic/Scepter, and Pili/Architect all being searchable by artifact tutors. Laquatus was in T4 mostly for being looked at as "Oona without black," but I think he's probably the best infinite mana commander in mono-Blue, and deserves a spot in T3.
Erebos, God of the Dead, Moved to T3: People have been clamoring for it. and while I still haven't seen a decklist that's cEDH worthy, I can't deny that refilling your hand from the command zone is good enough for T3
Ghoulcaller Gisa, Moved to T3: She's a competent Stax commander, and mono-black has good enough ramp to offset her 5 CMC.
Ishkanah, Grafwidow, Moved to T3. A G/B infinite mana sink is nothing to scoff at. I think we put her in T4 originally as a way to denote she was worse than other options of the same deck, like Tasigur. But now that that archetype has branched out into multiple decks due to Thrasios gabbing the top spot, it's a little unrealistic to act like only one commander can represent the infinite mana plan. Not having blue definitely hurts her, but G/B is a solid color identity, and the fact that she herself is a piece in Nim Deathmantle gives her a leg up as well.
Vela the Night-Clad, Moved to T3: Vela has always been a weird fringe deck that people don't know what to do with. The problem is mostly that her abilities seem contradictory. Do you want to focus on attacking with creatures, or do you want to make creatures leave play? It's a bit murky what strategy fits her best, but now that I've taken a look at her from an infinite mana combo, I think her best strategy is probably to look for an infinite mana combo with a sac outlet, and infinite LTB combo (Deadeye combo probs), or bomb with Blade of Selves/Rite of Replication. (Not to mention, a certain card that may or may not be coming out next set forms a 2 card combo with her.)
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch, Moved to T3: I already made a decklist on this. Infinite mana is a guarantied win.
- Jazal Goldmane Moved to T4: I defended Jazal for quite some time, as his unusual tiny creature aggro strategy can often deal 40 damage to a player on turn 4 or 5. However, with the increasing power level that recent card printings have pushed onto tiers 1 through 3, it's becoming quite clear that the ability to take out just one player quickly is better relegated to T4, as most voltron commanders are already.
The leaked commanders' placements so far. Not linking them, you can look them up if you want to.
- Ur-Dragon - T5
- Ramos - T2.5 maybe 3
- O-Kagachi - T4
- Wasitora - T4 maybe 3
- Taigam - T3 maybe 2.5 (I think we've been going about this guy the wrong way so far. Everyone's been building storm, but rebound doesn't really help storm. Something interesting I just came across is the idea of using him for turns instead. Rebound makes every Time Warp into a Time Stretch instead. Add in a little spell recursion and you could easily take 10+ turns in row. Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's ult would then turn that into infinite turns.
- Mynea Frian, Dark Apostle - T5
- Kopala, Warden of Waves - T4
- Admiral Beckett Brass - T4 maybe 3
- Gishark, Sun's Avatar - T5 maybe 4
- Tiehana, Voice of Thunder - T?
- Captain Lannery Storm - T5
10 months ago
your deck looks sweet :-)
I just stumbled upon the imperious perfect and peema, maybe you would want to exchange them for more straightforward options since you do not rely on elves at all (and tapping for a token producer is the slow way to get more tokens). You might want to consider Nemata, Grove Guardian and Deranged Hermit instead since they provide a shitload of tokens you can work with... and Nemata is a winoption herself ;-) If you want more saproling tokens you can try Verdeloth the Ancient.