Narset, Enlightened Master Voltron
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Oct. 15, 2014, 12:41 a.m. by HavokX
I've been tossing around the idea of making my first non-casual commander deck with cards like Savage Beating for more combat steps and Temporal Mastery for more turns so I could get the most out of her. Which route should I take, enchantment or equipment voltron? I'm leaning towards the former so I wouldn't have to use mana on equip costs, but if she's somehow removed, the latter would stay on the battlefield. To those who have created voltron decks, what have you chosen and how has it worked out for you so far?
Epochalyptik says... #3
You should really be using a mix, but I could see sticking with more auras because they're more efficient for Narset. You might add a Bruna, Light of Alabaster and some Replenish effects to help with resilience.
October 15, 2014 1:08 a.m.
I stopped building my Narset deck after play a few of my friends'. I'm afraid she's going to get banned, so be careful how much money you drop on the deck, as no other America commander really plays like she does.
If you really want to build her, try to limit your creatures and lands, using a lot of mana rocks, extra turn/combat effects and utility such as counterspells, shuffle effects, unblockability and Swiftfoot Boots to allow you to just win once she hits the field. BTW, I'd recommend boots over Greaves with Narset, simply so that you can make her unblockable once your opponent has tapped out. If they tap out.
October 15, 2014 1:41 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #5
I don't really think investment is a concern. Most of the cards you'll be using will still be good in EDH, and they'll hold value. That's one of the perks of playing EDH. It's rather stable as far as formats go. You do raise a good point about Narset being in a category of its own as far as American commanders go.
October 15, 2014 1:52 a.m.
TelleoStar says... #6
Can you cast auras on Narset while she's attacking? I mean, she says you may cast noncreature spells without paying their mana costs, but she doesn't make them work at instant speed, does she? So you'd have to enchant her post-combat. Of course, you also have to cast equipment post-combat, so no difference there.
October 15, 2014 2:29 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #7
Ah, you make a good point, TelleoStar. I missed the "until end of turn" bit. You're correct in pointing out that the ability still follows timing restrictions; you don't cast anything during the resolution of the ability itself.
That's rather unfortunate, then. Narset may be good, but she might also not be a great voltron commander.
October 15, 2014 2:39 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #8
I mean, I guess the free casts are still good because they help you overcome the majority of the mana investment inherent in supporting a voltron strategy. You could always run Leyline of Anticipation and Vedalken Orrery as well.
October 15, 2014 2:40 a.m.
Of course I'd be gearing her up before the combat phase with the auras in my hand, just like almost any other aura voltron commander. Her ability just expedites things for the following turns (or the following combat phases during the same turn) and that's where I can see her really shine. I'm gonna give it a try and at the very least come up with a deck list on here, not necessarily get the cards just yet. The leyline and the orrery are very good ideas, and even better since I actually have some lying around.
October 15, 2014 3:29 a.m.
YoYoJunkie says... #10
I have a few questions.
Are there anyways to give the cards that Narset ability allows you to play be played with flash/instant speed? Is there a prophet of kruphix (the flash part not necessarily the untap portion) of sorts for all permanents or maybe non-creature cards only gain flash? And i don't know if Narset would get banned since Bruna isn't banned and that leads me to the next issue. If you have a Bruna player in your play group Narset effectively gets nerfed since Bruna takes any/all enchantments you end up playing.
So that leaves me asking how can we stop Bruna if we do run Narset with a huge enchantment/aura package? Tattoo ward comes to mind but that's literally just 1 card in your 99 so we must tutor or get lucky with drawsDoes anyone else have any other ideas with narset that might make her less susceptible to the likes of bruna?
Sorry to digress and i hope this adds to the discussion as this has been my issue with playing Narset because there is a ruthless Bruna player locally and prevents me from playing Narset.
October 15, 2014 6:14 a.m.
They'll ban Zur the Enchanter long before Narset, Enlightened Master , so don't worry about that.
Narset, Enlightened Master is an easy to deal with commander. By the time you get the mana to cast it, your opponents has had the chance to set up for a defense against whatever you can throw at them.
October 15, 2014 8:02 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #12
@YoYoJunkie: I already mentioned the two cards people most often use to give stuff flash: Leyline of Anticipation and Vedalken Orrery .
Also, your arguments aren't necessarily arguments against Narset so much as they are arguments against voltron as a whole in that situation. Bruna just counters aura-based strategies if the player can remove your general first. It's really hard to work around it unless you removal that can get past whatever auras are on Bruna.
October 15, 2014 12:38 p.m.
Zur's already banned in Duel Commander, and Narset is significantly more terrifying in a multiplayer format. Narset takes care of ANY noncreature spell, i.e. Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Jokelhaups, Time Warp, Time Stretch, Eldrazi Conscription, Savage Beating, Jeskai Ascendancy, etc. Zur tutors for Arrest, Stasis, Diplomatic Immunity, etc. Narset can win the game the turn she enters the battlefield, and with a few mana rocks, you can easily blow out a game. Remember, with Sol Ring, Signets, etc. you can cast Narset turn 3 effectively. Assuming you aren't running Mana Crypt, of course.
October 15, 2014 1:56 p.m.
HeroInMyOwnMind says... #14
I think if you use cheap mana cost equipment for traits like hexproof, haste, deathtouch, and first strike, and expensive mana cost aura cards with +X/+X and things like doublestrike, trample, protection from creatures, and indestructible you will get the most value out of the best each type of voltron has to offer.
Like other people have mentioned, having things like Replenish , Retether , or Bruna, Light of Alabaster will help your cause.
I would like to point out that using high-cost instants are a decent way to make an "instants" voltron deck with her. This deck would have far less end game capabilities, but can explode more than any other option.
You mentioned Savage Beating already, but there are tons more you could take advantage of. Even simple things like Brute Force can go a long way when stacked up. You could also play with a bunch of otherwise expensive land destruction or generic removal cards or bounce cards and keep people locked out.
I have played voltron of every style, and they all have their own strengths. With her, you could easily balance out the deck with a mix of each, and get it to play exactly how you want.
October 15, 2014 3:05 p.m.
YoYoJunkie says... #15
HeroInMyOwnMind your post makes Narset even higher on my build list I'd love to begin building with someone versed in voltron builds and might have some ideas on combating bruna.
I love the idea of rocking a game to its core with 1 turn turning everything on end.
October 15, 2014 5 p.m.
How to beat Bruna? Nevermore , Hinder , council's judgement, Spell Crumple , Grafdigger's Cage , Tormod's Crypt , etc. Just stop her from entering the battlefield or getting auras from graveyards. Stifle , Trickbind ...
October 15, 2014 5:26 p.m.
UpsetYoMama says... #17
I don't think anyone's really mentioned this, but I've seen some floating around and I'm building one of my own. Narset Superfiends seems to be a very versatile build. Even if Narset gets tucked or whatever you can still cast and utilize your planeswalkers. If she gets to attack, then you're most likely going to be casting at least one planeswalker for free...great value! Extra turns allow you to head towards your ultimates quite fast, too.
October 16, 2014 9:37 p.m.
FancyTuesday says... #18
I don't believe for an instant Narset, Enlightened Master is in any danger of getting banned. Watching her in action I've seen nothing to suggest she's anywhere near as dangerous as Zur the Enchanter or Maelstrom Wanderer .
The CMC 6 without haste just kills her without Green for ramp. Everyone knows she's coming because she's in your damn command zone, so you're banking on nobody having seen a wrath in the 39 cards minimum 3 opponents will have drawn by turn 5. God help her if someone drops a Grave Pact or an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite . Kill her once and she's 8, twice and she's a 10 drop at which point you might as well just be casting those damn spells. As a 3/2 she's not exactly a difficult kill even with Hexproof, needing a buff just to stand up to powerhouse beater commanders like Karador, Ghost Chieftain .
A lot of utility stuff her colors need will be dead pulls to her ability. Counterspells are right out, mana rocks are underwhelming, everyone seems to love the idea of extra turns but when your board is a 3/2 that you might have to recast after someone blocks it with anything bigger than a mana dork extra turns aren't a win con.
Watching her get blown out game after game I'm wondering if it's possible to really get her working. It just seems like she needs too many things.
October 17, 2014 3:08 a.m.
Then you've been seeing the wrong decks. I've seen Narset instantly win games the turn she hits, you've just got to play those rocks. I've seen her hit the board turn 2 before and win on turn 3 because no one had any answers at that point. I didn't have my Council's Judgement, etc. Now, that was a crazy match (turn 1 Mana Crypt, Mountain, Sol Ring, Azorius Siget, next turn tap out). Or the time someone had the same play except with a Lightning Greaves, meaning we lost instantly. While those were crazy matches, with the right setup Narset typically wins the turn she enters. In a multiplayer match she's less terrifying, sure, but same can be said of Maelstrom Wanderer and especially of Zur. Narset free-casts Time Stretch. I can't think of any other commander-legal card that does that and is almost guaranteed to hit the field.
Will she be banned soon? Maybe. I see a lot of horrible decks that can easily win on an empty board. I see a lot of horrible decks that can autokill someone without creatures (read: me, playing Oloro control with all of 10 creatures). And if they get a bolt or Path to Exile on your 1 creature, then it's GG. Typically. Unless she misses, which is a very moot point anyways, but if you're running her right, you're not going to miss a lot.
She's scary when played right, but you're right, she misses not having ramp. At least we don't have cards like Terrain Generator , Mana Drain , Seething Song , Metalworker , Land Tax or anything else in her colors, right?
October 17, 2014 3:44 a.m.
Gotta agree with FancyTuesday on this. Sure with a perfect start you can win the game early but that's how it is with every good deck. How well a deck perform based on the most optimal start does not reflect its power, especially if you don't take into account that you have opponents who also have made decks equally powerful decks. There are countless many ways to deal with Narset just like any other commander, hexproof doesn't make her impossible to deal with, just a bit hard.
If you're focusing on casting Narset early you'll have to use cards to make it happen. This again makes it less likely that you will even hit the right spells when attacking with Narset.
She is indeed powerful if you're lucky but she is in no way powerful enough for a ban. Her ability is just too incosistent to make every attack a sure win. Not to mention it gives your opponents a chance to respond to beforehand
October 17, 2014 5:31 a.m.
FancyTuesday says... #21
Just so we're clear, this whole "Narset doing well" thing is contingent on drawing some very specific mana rocks, probably a haste equipment, and then lucking into a Time Stretch, and even then this God Draw has managed 9 Commander damage assuming no blockers? If we can assume one player pulls multiple specific cards to make Narset scary why is it that no one else in the pod can manage a single answer? Yes, it will happen on occasion in practice, but that's the exception and not the rule unless you're light years ahead of your meta.
If you start with "well if I start with Mana Crypt and Sol Ring..." you should probably just stop. That's not a scenario you plan for, it's a critical hit. If I turn 1 Mishra's Workshop into Sol Ring and Coalition Relic then T2 Consecrated Sphinx with a top decked Mana Crypt that table is gonna have a bad day. Yeah I've done it before, and yeah I won that game, but I don't look at that game as an example of how the deck does 95% of the time.
Yes other colors have ramp. No, they aren't as powerful or consistent as Green. Cards like Skyshroud Claim and Cultivate are what make Maelstrom Wanderer 's CMC of 8 no big deal. Terrain Generator is situational as butts and even in mono color in decks with over 20 basic lands I've never seen it get any work done. Mana Drain is a counterspell in a deck where counterspells in the deck weaken the theme you're building the deck around. Land Tax just keeps you on your land drops, and if you're banking on having Terrain Generator out for it then this masterstroke of strategy where a two card combo results in 1 basic land dropped and 4 tapped lands while probably shutting off Land Tax is all yours Sun Tzu.
I don't know what to tell you. I've seen supposedly "good" Narset decks just get blown out game after game. Maybe it's just my meta, but that 4 cards just doesn't seem to be enough and extra turns aren't that scary. When I see someone tap out 8 to drop their 3/2 Commander that has to live long enough to swing to do anything and I have Decree of Pain in my hand waiting to cycle I just feel bad for the guy. I've seen others say that Hexproof plus the fact that she doesn't have to connect to trigger makes her imbalanced, watching her in practice those are the only things making her even remotely playable.
Epochalyptik says... #2
In general, equipment tends to be more mana-hungry while auras tend to be more card-hungry.
With aura voltron, you really suffer from sweepers and removal because you lose the aura as well as the creature. That said, auras work much better with Narset because you can just freecast them directly onto your attacking general.
Equipment forces you to pay twice - once to cast and once to equip. Even if you get around the casting cost, you're still paying another cost at sorcery speed to equip. The nice thing is that equipment strategies are more resilient to removal because you don't lose everything if your creature dies.
October 15, 2014 1:07 a.m.