Hide my comment under archive I see. You played me well. Very funny of one of you, thegigibeast, ShaperSavant, tw0handt0uch, or LabManiac_Sigi now feels like an absolute boss for archiving this discussion in such a way to remove my criticism of it.

I said I wouldn't comment on this page any further in that post, but as it was moved to a separate page, I assume this doesn't break any promises, right?

If anyone cares to read it, it is currently under page 358 of the archived comments, which you can check with the little white 'View Archive' button right on top of the discussion section.

Any further "meta commenting" will result in a 3 day vacation from the site. The only eligible discussions on deck pages are about polite discussions of the deck's topic themselves.

CyborgAeon Okay, in fairness, I once again did not even know Skittering Surveyor was a card, so, yeah. For my purposes, it's strictly better than Liliana's Shade , so, yeah.

I honestly tend to find Bottle Gnomes pretty relevant, as I often lose a lot of life, but I suppose I'm playing enough tutors now to where I can just grab Zulaport Cutthroat or something if that's really such a concern--I suppose I can cut him, though I will miss him.

I'm still kinda on edge about cutting Black Market --my meta is still fairly casual, but I have, in fact, won before with Exsanguinate thanks to all the mana from Black Market against a fairly competitive (but by no means optimized) Prossh, Skyraider of Kher deck (and some other peeps). I might find something else to cut for Pitiless Plunderer , but I'd rather not have to choose between both of them. (Also, something worth considering is that Black Market is harder to remove than Pitiless Plunderer , though they'd need exile effects or something in any case).

As for Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood , getting 10 mana isn't a problem for me, but I get what you're saying--it's not exactly the fastest combo available, and my deck probably doesn't slow the game down enough to make it competitively viable. All the same, there's just not that many better mono-black combos.

As for running more tutors and stax effects, well, for one, I actually still want this list to be playable in my meta (it's approaching a point where it's just too cancerous relatively to what the majority of everyone else is playing, believe it or not), so adding Trinisphere and Static Orb and the like would be very unsubtle and super cutthroat (though, yes, that's exactly what would make the deck more competitive, I understand that). Secondly, the list is getting pretty tight, yet again, so I'd probably have to cut some Shirei synergy for that sort of thing, which would probably be worth it, but would make me feel that much more soulless, honestly. Can never seem to strike that balance between not playing a whole bunch of staples and having a synergetic build...

Thirdly, while they'd absolutely be worth it, I'm not playing more tutors simply due to budget considerations. I know that might sound pretty laughable considering the deck costs $830 dollars, but it's the only list I have that I own in paper (well, most of it--waiting for more cards to arrive, as I keep cutting stuff), but I've been building it up over the course of 3-4 years. Budget is no object in cEDH, I know, but it is for me--the most expensive card in the deck is about $75. Spending $100 on a card isn't something I really want to do. I might find something to cut for Cruel Tutor , though (bad as it is).

As it stands, I think Liliana's Shade and Bottle Gnomes are out and Skittering Surveyor and Scroll Rack are in. A marginal improvement--still not good enough, though, you're right. If only I could run Land Tax + Scroll Rack ...

(Oh, and, on a completely unrelated note, this might already be a thing, but I was wondering if anyone had figured out a way to combo out with Timestream Navigator in a Prime Speaker Vannifar list. All you'd need is a 1-drop that recurs itself to either your hand or the battlefield, and, so long as you had enough mana and the city's blessing, you could take infinite turns. That might actually be a viable combo in cEDH).

NoOneOfConsequence: if budget and your meta (and keeping the deck fair) are both consideratuons as to card choices, I would recommend spawning a second list which is a no budget, jerk deck specifically designed for here where you can run all the Stax cards you want while still maintaining your paper list separately. That's what I have done with my Saffi list and it works really well.

enpc I guess I'll do that at some point. A bit of work, but I'd like to see exactly how good Shirei can really be.

Alright, after much ado, here it is: Trying Too Hard to Make a Bad Deck Good. I consulted my own list, Shirei is Love, Shirei is Life, and the suggestions people have previously made to me on this page.

The deck runs a lot of fast mana, only 15 Shirei-synergy creatures, more flat stax pieces, a cheaper combo than Sanguine Bond + Exquisite Blood , more tutors, more draw effects, better utility, and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for good measure. What the deck does is described in, well, the deck's description--and speaking of which, again, I think this is about as good as I can possibly make a Shirei deck, anyway. Except for maybe the exact details of the deck's finisher, I don't really think I can improve on any of the card choices in the deck. As such, if that deck doesn't make Shirei worthy of tier 3, then I suppose I'll finally have to concede that Shirei simply isn't tier 3. You be the judge, I suppose.

Submitting this Teneb list for High Power and seeing what you peeps think about it :P

Tenebu's Gravedigging Tendencies | Primer

Commander / EDH hkhssweiss

SCORE: 84 | 143 COMMENTS | 14426 VIEWS | IN 28 FOLDERS

Thank ya~

hkhssweiss But he's already in High Power :O

I meant submitting as a deck list not for a reason to be high power :p

I noticed there isn't many deck list available for people who want to see sample deck lists on here~

They just see the power level and that's it! I wish he could be competitive but there are better options and as refined as I made Tenebu, other commanders can outclass him. Still doesn't stop him from being infamous on stomping cEDH pods in my meta though xD

That decklist looks fine for High. The only card i’d disagree with is Krosan Grip but thats nitpicking really. I’ll talk to the team and see if we can get it listed at high.

tw0handt0uch Why do you disagree with Krosan Grip? Isn't it an effective way to shut down resolved infinite combo's, especially ones that are able to ignore removal by going infinite in response?

tw0handt0uch, I don't know if you looked, but a couple weeks ago I had posted my Oona list (non-storm option) for consideration. I don't know if you looked at it.

My Oona

I stated before that I don't know if having a non-storm option is necessary for the list, but the deck definitely performs well.

Thanks in advance!

Aphoticate - in general, the problematic things must be dealt with the turn they come down i.e. isochron scepter, paradox engine, food chain. Holding up 3 mana turn after turn after turn is going to stall development and be worse over the long term relative to the decks you face which are holding up chain of vapor, nature’s claim, swords, etc. Maybe for high power its acceptable... but for cedh in general you take [speed/low cmc + limitations/card disadvantage] vs [slow/high cmc + perks]. If you look at the top lists you will see of lot of stuff like lotus petal, spirit guides, deluge over damnation, etc. the cost of spot removal in cedh is 1... occasionally 2. The cost of wipes and total blowouts is 3 (deluge, fire cov, blood moon, etc).

@tw0handt0uch

Krosan Grip is more of a meta call currently, we have a lot of Paradox Scepter combo users, so it's more to stop them as the split second is fairly relevant. Otherwise I would swap to either Natural State , Fragmentize , or even Seeds of Innocence . It's pretty much my flex spot. Also thanks for taking a look, appreciate it :)

All the decks I have reflect my IRL collection :P

tw0handt0uch Fair enough. In something like Tasigur where you're likely holding mana up for a counterspell anyway do you like it more, or is 3cmc still too much in your opinion?

@ Aphoticate If your holding up mana for a counterspell, you would still run another counterspell over K-Grip. Resolving and letting a card hit the field is still worse than just hard-countering one.

Just imo :P

Yes, State or Seeds would likely be better. But honestpy I’m not sure if you need more spot removal... you already have decay, trophy, claim, caterpillar, and swords. With all the tutors in those colors you may want to choose something else for that slot.

tw0handt0uch: Given that you don't like Krosan Grip , are your thoughts the same on Beast Within , especially in the case of not having access to black?

Mono green decks it’s fine. Every other color has better options

@ tw0handt0uch

I been consider re-adding back Leonin Relic-Warder as another combo piece line when I don't have something accessible, it's either that or a Praetor's Grasp , Orim's Chant , or Grim Tutor (I don't have one available to me atm, but it bears consideration...albeit 3 for a tutor sucks...).

Personally I think Prime Speaker Vannifar should be tier 2 because I built one here Vannifar CEDH and it is probably sub-optimal. As for testing, it is currently 7 wins 0 losses on untap.in and has beat Teferi, Temporal Archmage 3 times. (Which, admittedly, 2 times my opponent didn’t know how to pilot the deck). Anyway, you don’t have to take my advice but I just figured I would give it. (Also any advice on that decklist would be very appreciated).

Arjun, the Shifting Flame belongs in high power. He can win the game with dramatic reversal, high tide shenanigans, Laboratory maniac, and/or aetherflux reservoir. There is too much versatility and raw power with his ability for the mid power category. Arjun himself combos with Aetherflux Reservoir , Paradox Engine , and Alhammarret's Archive which are all EDH staples anyway.

I mean, if we're going to have Bruna, Light of Alabaster and Damia, Sage of Stone in tier 3, I don't really see why not. People really like to argue for the status quo around here, though--if Arjun were already tier 3 and Damia wasn't, they could come up with a million reasons why Damia shouldn't be tier 3 and never really consider the opposite perspective logically.

HezTheGod I think that if the tier list maintainers were shown a comprehensive list depicting your reasoning, it would definitely be examined. They did the same with mine and I myself would love to see your Arjun, the Shifting Flame list be expanded upon. Dissect every facet of your deck, explain your reasoning for it, and you'll definitely paint that picture. Sick list btw, upvoted & saved.

Can someone explain why The Gitrog Monster is tier 1? sure he draws cards and fill your graveyard but he can easily be hated out by graveyard hate and such. Is there an infinite combo I'm not seeing?