Why Olivia Voldaren?
Modern forum
Posted on July 26, 2015, 4:52 p.m. by Xica
I see lot of decks playing Olivia Voldaren, but i think it is highly overrated (especially if played in vampire tribal).
She is a gigantic mana sink (5 mana, for stealing a creature), beside this stealing creatures with her is highly dangerous.
You spend a lot of mana stealing with her, and if she gets hit by some kind of black removal spell (she has no defense, no hexproof / shroud / indestructibility / regeneration) she will give back all the stolen creatures to their owner. So you have wasted a lot of mana on her ability instead of improving your board.
And in vampire decks she cannot compare to Vampire Nocturnus or Lord of Lineage Flip as they affect the board very strongly for a lot less investment.
So what is the reason for playing Olivia Voldaren?
Because killing Lingering Souls and Dark Confidant etc is worth it.
July 26, 2015 5:03 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #5
She's a four mana 3/3 flyer. Now, that's not very good, but I think your missing the fact that she kills their creatures and becomes huge. HUGE! Yes, she dies to bolt, but if you untap with her, she kills something with toughness 2 or less and attacks for 5. Now she can't be bolted and is harder to kill. She is good because you can pay 2 mana to put a +1/+1 counter on her, and maybe kill some of their dudes. If the game goes really late, she can steal some dudes, and then they really don't have much time to find an answer for her cause they're dead real quick.
Now, she's worse than Huntmaster of the Fells Flip, so I don't know why she's played.
July 26, 2015 5:05 p.m.
An evasive 3/3 is not necessarily worse than two 2/2s on the ground that gain you some life.
July 26, 2015 5:06 p.m.
Chiefbell & MindAblaze
There are thousand other ways to kill small creatures that are cheaper than 
For example in any vampire deck there is the Blade of the Bloodchief
+
Retribution of the Ancients
"combo"
#Pumpkinwavy
I see her suggested all over my back for every vampire deck, but i see her as a huge mana waste there too. If one chooses her for the flavour i have no problem, but his mana requirements, and her Legendary statues makes her less competitive than other alternatives in my opinion.
July 26, 2015 5:11 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #8
Wrecks up creatures deck. Far more than anything else you mentioned.
July 26, 2015 5:12 p.m.
A single card that doesn't die to abrupt decay is better at wrecking creatures than a two card combo that does.
July 26, 2015 5:14 p.m.
She has Gigantic mana costs compared to other ways you can wreck creature decks.
She is "Legendary" so she can easily become a dead draw.
July 26, 2015 5:16 p.m.
Sure but unlike most other ways she also just wins you the game?
July 26, 2015 5:18 p.m.
Programmer_112 says... #12
Basically she's just awesome in a lot of matchups. A 4 mana 3/3 flying isn't anything to write home about, but it could be worse. Then, she has the ability to shoot weenies dead, which is pretty powerful. AND, if she does shoot things, then she grows (6 mana+Livvie=Bolt-proof, AD-proof 4/4 flier+dead Bob/Spirit Token/whatever). AND, if you get to the late-game, then she can steal ANY non-x/1 creature for 7 mana, AND she basically only dies to Path at that point (Bolt, Dismember, AD, Flame Slash, and most other removal spells in Modern are toughness-based). Basically, she just has a ton of upside, and can (and will) singlehandedly win games.
July 26, 2015 5:19 p.m.
Programmer_112 says... #13
Oh. Also, trying to evaluate her in Vampire Tribal is useless, because Vampire Tribal is basically a bunch of bad cards+Olivia Voldaren+Lightning Bolt.
July 26, 2015 5:21 p.m.
Schuesseled says... #14
Ahh A "but she dies to do doomblade" (well actually she doesn't but you get my point) approach.
Just cause she can die and you can lose all mana invested in her doesn't make her bad, if she kills you whilst you were waiting for a kill spell, you are still dead.
July 26, 2015 5:21 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #15
One card that can provide multiple effects for a mana investment that would otherwise be used on more cards.
She's a controlling card and thus is played in the controlling jund deck. Tribal vamps is often better off without her for the same reason. What really is your issue with her? My guess is that she's expensive on the wallet?
July 26, 2015 5:22 p.m.
Well it is a significant downside when they cost like 5x the mana the removal does haha.
July 26, 2015 5:22 p.m.
-1/-1 counters are a lot stronger form of removal than, than simple damage...
(The Blade of the Bloodchief isn't a dead draw without the enchantment, i am new to modern, but i dont think majority of small creature based decks run Abrupt Decay)
July 26, 2015 5:24 p.m.
Programmer_112 says... #18
The thing is, you DON'T lose all of the mana invested in her. She dies to Path to Exile, Terminate, possibly Dismember, and RARELY Lightning Bolt. Besides those 3, no removal spell in Modern will ever kill her, and even if it does, you can probably shoot some weenies to get value anyways. If you stick Olivia, there's a decent chance she lives, and even 1 untap step with her is devastating.
July 26, 2015 5:25 p.m.
I mean you did just list most of the common removal cards haha. Also Liliana of the Veil and Maelstrom Pulse.
Also a ton of decks run Abrupt Decay.
July 26, 2015 5:27 p.m.
But despite all the removal she's still worth it because 3 power in the air and having abilities that kill things all on one single card is too good to pass up. Why would I want to run a playset of cards that kill things and a playset of fliers when instead I could run just one single playset that does both. Now I have 4 free slots that I didn't have before.
July 26, 2015 5:34 p.m.
pumpkinwavy says... #22
Olivia Voldaren pros and cons:
Pros:
-
gets a +1/+1 counter
-Evasive body that gets really big
-Is a mana sink
-Wins game single handedly
-Is amazing in creature matchups (kills small creatures and steals big ones)
Cons:
-Dies to bolt
-Is legendary (but I don't see why you'd want many copies anyway)
-Requires lots of mana to be good
-Work is undone by a single removal spell
-Mediocre when opponent has no creatures (and yes, ChiefBell, two 2/2s that gain life are better than a 3/3.)
Verdict: Slow and soft to removal, but this is true power if I've ever seen it. When it's good, it's good, but otherwise... eh. Stick to Huntmaster of the Fells Flip for the maindeck because he interacts better with removal and is more consistently good. Also, this isn't limited, so evasion is less important, and jund (the only place you'd place this) that plays lots of ways to deal with opposing creatures. A powerful sideboard card.
July 26, 2015 5:37 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #23
I'd like to point out that most lists only run Olivia as a two of in the entire 75. 3 of if she's good in the meta
July 26, 2015 5:38 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #24
Also she is run alongside Huntmaster. Not instead of
July 26, 2015 5:40 p.m.
Tragic Slip; Dark Betrayal; Celestial Purge,... just to name a few.
I agree that she sucks all the blood out of soul sisters for example, but if you use her to remove/steal anything 3/3 or above, that is just a waste of mana.Why would you spend , wait 1 turn (hopeing she doesnt gets killed), then spend even more mana, if you can spend /
and get Bile Blight; Drown in Sorrow and you can be sure that those tiny creatures are dead.
July 26, 2015 5:50 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #26
Because you're also left with say a 7/7 and more cards in hand when you don't waste them killing things?
July 26, 2015 5:52 p.m.
I agree that her body is ok, and it can be counted as an acceptable card with all the utility she provides, but she to put it simply "isn't the best", and using her abilities to do anything else than clearing the board from */1 creatures just does not worth it.
In my opinion she is the same abomination to vampires, what Grimgrin, Corpse-Born is to Zombies, at 1st glance it looks good, but after thinking about it its just better to leave them alone.
July 26, 2015 5:53 p.m.
"Because you're also left with say a 7/7 and more cards in hand when you don't waste them killing things?"
Yes, you use 1 more card to kill creatures, but you will have:
mana to do something else
killed the creatures in the same turn you played the spell
you dont have to worry about creatures, with protection, shroud, hexproof, regenerate, and indestructibility...
You didnt wasted 10 mana to steal two 3/3, and make olivia 5/5 (having 1 mana for 2 turns), before she got killed by some kill spell...
July 26, 2015 5:59 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #29
No one is saying to play her in vamps. Vamps is a synergy based aggro deck. Those don't do well in competition. You're going to want falkenrath aristocrat
July 26, 2015 6 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #30
No one uses her to steal things. That's not her purpose. Not commonly at least unless you're super behind in which case, you're probably dead anyways
What I'm trying to explain (and admittingly I'm bad at explaining things) is that she's good as a resource management tool
July 26, 2015 6:02 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #31
Yeah I fee like assuming she's used for stealing things is just wrong. One card that does multiple things (you want to be doing) is (almost) always going to be more valuable than 2 cards that only do one thing each.
July 26, 2015 6:11 p.m.
SwaggyMcSwagglepants says... #32
First off, I don't see any Vampire tribal decks around, so that kind of devalues your defense.
Second, it's not often I can see you using her black Control Magic ability. Willbreaker is a more interesting card if you want to Control Magic on a stick, and Willbreaker I can almost positively predict won't see any Tier 1 play.
Third, she's deceptively a +4/+4 plus. If she pings something, she's out of Lightning Bolt range. After 2 pings, you get to eat Tasigoyfs. After three pings, you can eat Zombie fish (Gurmag Angler) IDK about 4 pings to kill Griselbrand, but that could happen.
Fourth, Lord of Lineage Flip, as ChiefBell has definitely pointed out (him being the Junk player) is in Abrupt Decay range. And Vampire Nocturnus gives out way too much information without enough benefit like Courser of Kruphix gives.
Fifth, for why it's played over Huntmaster of the Fells Flip, Modern is a spell format. People aren't going to sandbag spells to make sure he doesn't flip, unless they're playing a low-cost aggro/control deck (Delver, Burn, Zoo) and they run removal spells in their lists (Lightning Bolt, which hits 1 side, Path to Exile, Terminate, Go for the Throat, Murderous Cut, Searing Blaze, etc.).
So I can't see why you wouldn't run it as a 4 drop of choice in Vampires/Jund.
July 26, 2015 6:18 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #33
Watch the finals at the Players Championship 2012.
Yuuya Watabe vs Shouta Yasooka.
There is some decent evidence of its effectiveness in grindier matchups.
July 26, 2015 6:31 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #34
Xica Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't make the mistake of becoming the next IM.
You asked why, Olivia Voldaren is run in specific decks, experienced players have answered, take that advice and mull it over before responding with "but!..."
As to why she sees play: She is a 3/3 with flying that basically reads ": Put a +1/+1 counter on Olivia Voldaren and destroy target creature with 1 toughness." In modern there is usually one number that we care about, 3. Now if a creature has 3 or less toughness it had better be able to do one of two things: Provide utility or get bigger. (Or hexproof but that's boggles and they get bigger anyways.)
Olivia punishes players who are relying on low toughness synergy (looking at you Affinity and to a lesser extent Dark Confidant players) or simply having low toughness creatures that can block stuff (Lingering Souls). She also grows out of bolt range and doesn't get hit by Abrupt Decay.
Now, as to the argument of "Dies to Path". Let's be real here. There are really only 3 removal spells that are common in modern, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, and Path to Exile. (Yes there are others that see play but I'm talking about the "you're in the color you run 4x" removal spells) If you aren't playing against White you don't have to worry about path and Olivia will wreck them. The chances of them having an immediate answer for her are pretty slim provided you can back it up. Also, keep in mind that she sees play in Jund, a deck that likes to tear apart your hand. This means that T1 and T3 likely consisted of Seize -> Goyf/Bob -> Seize -> Goyf/Bob so the chances of them sandbagging a removal spell for Olivia Voldaren are fairly limited, this means that unless they topdick you, you should be able to untap with her.
Wall o' text
July 26, 2015 6:36 p.m. Edited.
MindAblaze
She is the jack of all trades master of none type, she is not a Rakdos Charm. Its good if you have a card that works in multiple scenarios, but its not good if you have one that nearly works...
SwaggyMcSwagglepants
I have a vampire deck, and every 2nd comment is complaining why i dont play her. I dont get what is all the fuss about.
Null profused turbo Vampires
Lord of Lineage
Flip costs to cast... how is he going to get killed by Abrupt Decay?
July 26, 2015 6:43 p.m.
bijschjdbcd says... #36
When the lord flips his CMC is 0...
Use brackets in the names to tag people...
Ohthenoises said all that needs to be said.
July 26, 2015 6:57 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #37
You are half right. Bloodline Keeper
Flip does have a mana cost of , making it un-Abrupt Decay-able. However, note the lack of mana symbols on Lord of Lineage
Flip. With no symbols, Lord of Lineage
Flip's mana cost is 0, making it a target for Abrupt Decay.
July 26, 2015 7:03 p.m. Edited.
GlistenerAgent says... #38
@Xica How about you go and play a game with Jund where you get to untap with Olivia Voldaren?
Theory is very frequently bullshit, and that is the case here.
@bijschjdbcd I love watching that match.
July 26, 2015 7:10 p.m. Edited.
VampireArmy says... #39
GlistenerAgent throwing an inexperienced player into an unknown archetype isn't going to prove anything. The best they can do is watch the pros do it on YouTube. Preferably ones with play by play commentary so they can learn about the deck as well
July 26, 2015 7:19 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #40
I mean, there's a way to become less inexperienced.
If we are discussing Olivia in Vampires, that also requires actually playing games. If you decide you don't like her, don't play her.
July 26, 2015 7:24 p.m.
So you guys are saying that i should play Olivia Voldaren instead of Bloodline Keeper Flip in my tribal vampire deck?
July 26, 2015 7:46 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #43
More or less you might have to test that out for yourself. Just proxy up an olivia if you don't own any and play some games
July 26, 2015 7:48 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #45
I think the core problem of this thread is you are catching flack for not playing Olivia Voldaren in a tribal deck, and taking out your frustrations on the card. Olivia isn't really that great in a hyper aggressive tribal deck, but it is a VERY flexible powerhouse 4 drop. Jund values flexibility and cards that can single handedley end games by themselves. Others have given you the wall of information, but after playing Jund for over a year I can say I have won games I was losing badly because of Olivia. Also I've only stolen like 3 guys in that time span. She kills stuff.
July 26, 2015 9:51 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #46
Am I the only person who was stuck on this being a question about Vampire Tribal that devolved into a thread about Jund?
Also, stealing a creature is relevant.
July 26, 2015 10:49 p.m. Edited.
Ohthenoises says... #47
fluffybunnypants OP never mentioned the specific shell when he says "I see lot of decks playing Olivia Voldaren, but i think it is highly overrated" So people automatically assume he is also referring to jund (the only deck where she sees play)>
July 26, 2015 10:51 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #48
I love you, bro, but re-read that OP.
(Yes, the post could've been phrased much better to be much clearer).
July 26, 2015 10:53 p.m. Edited.
VampireArmy says... #49
In op it does say decks that play her and especially vampire tribal. I think both points were thoroughly discussed, yes?
July 26, 2015 10:56 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #50
VampireArmy got the point I was making, I was taking some shorthand with you fluffybunnypants cause I figured you would get what I meant.
CharlesMandore says... #2
Because "legendary creature"
July 26, 2015 4:54 p.m.