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Here to annoy you some more, i know you love me...
Have you considered using Minister of Inquiries as further copies of Hedron Crab? maybe Greenbelt Rampager? For its multiple triggers, and combo with the aftermentioned vedalken - its a way to have "infinite" Vengevine reanimation, and a 3/4 for is not bad even in vacuum.
I hope you will be able to forget the fact that i made the suggestion, and consider the cards on their merit, and not on your emotions towards me.
December 11, 2017 6:48 p.m.
If the second part of your comment is aimed at me then i think i didn't make myself clear enough or you misunderstand me, due to some misplaced emotions.
This guy asked for, let me quote the post:
"Here's my challenge. I want to build a competitive modern deck, but the build I currently run (SaffronOlive's Mono Black Vehicles) cannot be upgraded into a TIER-WORTHY super-competitive deck, at least not that I know of."
For naive me it seemed that he asked for decks that can be as competitive as high tier ones.
...but its possible that i didn't get it, or i am just hallucinating.
After this i just wanted to point out that there are viable decks outside T1.
And that there are even new archetypes that may worth looking into.
Mono blue living end is such.
And RG; RB hollow one is also one.
Sadly i am not familiar with those - so i have no clue what should be focused on a budget build. I am only familiar with my version, thus i used that to illustrate that decks below 2000$ Death Shadow uber control sometimes can be viable.
I am not saying that he should play my version of the deck, or that its "better" than any other version.
I just wanted to used a deck that has low budget, and is very fringe, to illustrate that sometimes fun can be had below Tier One - and since this is the deck i know the price of the top of my head, i used it as my example.
But Mr. Perfection please tell me what example of a cheap non-tier deck wouldn't offend your high sensibilities?
P.s.:I get that you hate me for daring to tinker with tierless janks shit, but at least stick to reality in your accusations.
If i would have wanted to advertise my deck, i would have at least tried to add some reasoning for "why its good" - i mean it would be a pretty shit add otherwise don't you think?
Also if my goal would be to advertise, why would i not add a link?
Why in the bloody hell would i suggest alternative deck that have nothing to do with mine, like the as foretold living end?
Throwing around baseless accusations, and personal insults is easy. (But also pretty pointless)
Thus i would suggest that we compete in attempting to decide if all non tier decks are shit (or not), via examples.br>As doing so would be more productive for the original poster, than flaming, and being a dick to each other in general.
December 11, 2017 6:32 p.m.
Well i know am the biggest heathen on the forum, one who dares to preach the falsehood of "win/loss ratio if more important than tier".
(I mean its clear that no deck every accomplished anything in the competitive scene beside tron, eldrazi, burn, D&T, GBX, and they never will - and even if they did, it was either by astronomical luck, or by bribing other competitors)
P.s.: And these views are the least of my sins, i even damned myself by proclaiming that Reality Shift seems to be a better idea for mono blue As Foretold Living End decks, than Dismember.
Thus anyone who listens to me will surely rot in the hell reserved for noncompetitive jankbuilders XD
December 11, 2017 5:12 p.m.
...all this boils down to misunderstanding.
There is no such thing as a cheap tier deck. Tier decks are sorted based on number of decks played at events. And with basic economics one can easily conclude that this means high demand for their cards.
You could have competitive decks that are cheap - but they won't be "tier".
(And you run the risk of being that guy, who plays the jank shit that will not come up at events, and just takes up the time of everyone involved)
If we want to talk about recent developments, mono blue living end lists, and hollow one decks tend to be pretty cheap.
I mean my mono red hollow one deck, costs around ~180$ on magiccardmarket.eu - and its gonna be a LOT cheaper after Chandra, Torch of Defiance rotates out of standard.
So if you want a good deck you need to get win/loss ratio against the decks you want to play aginst.
Which is not the same thing as the number of people playing the deck at high level competitive tournaments - despite what the common wisdom seems to be
December 11, 2017 3:15 p.m.
Sorry for skipping over your post, seeing God-Pharaoh's Gift recommended for evolve decks, just put me in a state of mind where i thought that the discussion lost all conection to the reality of modern.
I agree that Greenbelt Rampager is should be an inclusion.
But in my opinion Heroic Intervention/Shapers' Sanctuary are better than Blossoming Defense
In the end not much of this matters, as the deck must have some way of dealing with the big beasts of modern, big Death's Shadow, Reality Smasher, Champion of the Parish, Tarmogoyf can all lead to game loss.
A single playset of evasive creatures is just not enough - it either desperately needs removal, or more evasive creatures.
December 10, 2017 4:07 p.m.
So lets pick the deck apart in detail:
1# If you don't have removal resistant creatures (like Slippery Bogle) you don't run cards that have "enchant creature" (with exception of enchantments like Rancor that don't go the grave). Because you should not allow your opponent to trade + Fatal Push for your 2 cards, and 2+ mana.
(and 2 cmc cycling cards like Angelic Gift are not much better)
2# Playing very dumb beaters is a bad idea. Especially if they need you to have a large board presence to do ANYTHING at all.
People tend to call these "win more cards" because they won't help you if you are in a bad position, and if you are winning already, what is the point in playing them?
I am talking about Crusader of Odric & Seraph of the Masses.
And even if we disregard the problems described above, when tokens are board wiped thy will self destruct.(since they will have 2-3 damage marked on them until end of turn, and when your tokens leave the battlefield, their toughness will fall below 2/3 - so they will swiftly follow)
3# Seller of Songbirds < Precinct Captain - so you shouldn't play 4 bird traders & 1 captain, but the reverse.
4# Akroan Horse is terrible - it only exists to reference the Trojan horse, for more greekish impression for the set. Artifact creatures are dangerous, to the player who plays them as they are hit by both artifact and creature removal/hate cards.
And the wooden horse is bad even without this fact, its so bad that you wouldn't even want to Harmless Offering it to the opponent, as its simply not worth the time and mana investment.
(it takes time to get to 4 mana in a 19 land deck that lacks filtering)
6# Mausoleum Guard is a worse Promise of Bunrei, the latter is an enchantment (thus very few people have stuff that would exile it unlike the guard which has high chances of meeting Path to Exile. The enchantment is also 1 mana cheaper, and if its played all your creatures will have the effect, so if any 1 of them dies you get the bonus (its much easier to not block a 2/2 tha to not block even a single one from the incoming horde of tokens)
7# Paragon of New Dawns; Phantom General < Honor the Pure, Intangible Virtue, Spear of Heliod & even Glorious Anthem. (honorable mention goes to Archetype of Courage because first strike is awesome if your are defending your life total from a weaker board position)
8# this deck simply doesn't have enough lands to support its (unnecessarily) high mana curve.
You are playing 11 4cmc cards in a deck with 19 lands, and you neither have ramp, nor card filtering to help you get to the necessary mana.
This means that those cards will likely just sit in your hand while you are being beaten to death by Tarmogoyf, Reality Smasher, or even a mono white token deck that runs a proper curve and/or the same effects for cheaper costs.
Giving your board indestructibility is the least of your worries, but you could theoretically accomplish such (or similar things) in modern (of course not with your mana source density):
Selfless Spirit, Frontline Medic, Knight Exemplar, Eldrazi Monument, Avacyn, Angel of Hope (Privileged Position)
You don't use google, you use this site to search magic cards...
December 9, 2017 9:44 a.m.
December 8, 2017 5:51 p.m.
Also this deck has a great potential to be a viable budget deck for modern, but running leylines in the side just raises the price to the sky
December 8, 2017 4:43 p.m.
If i had to guess he misses the amount of creatures run in traditional jund living end lists, which allowed fast combo, and near continual cycling.
You could add some, like Faerie Macabre instead of Leyline of the Void, or run some Nimble Obstructionist as stifles - maybe even take a look at evoke stuff like Mulldrifter
All in all the deck doesn't need to be as dense as jund lists, because it pack very good disruption spells - many of which becomes free with resolved As Foretold, and when Curator of Mysteries is on the field, cycling's Cerulean Wisps effect become Opt (and with 2 on the field, Serum Visions)
December 8, 2017 2:59 p.m.
Delver of Secrets is far from being bad.
But its NEEDS some sort of protection from Fatal Push/Lightning Bolt/Path to Exile - which does exist in the form of Disrupting Shoal, but it requires dedicated deck - hence the Ninja....Delver decks (where the ninja is optional at the moment)
December 8, 2017 7:22 a.m.
In some previous thread Reality Shift cam up in the discussion and everyone but me decided that it was shit...
However i dare to say that in this deck Reality Shift > Dismember
(somehow paying 4 life - which tends to happen in desperate situations - seems a lot worse than giving your opponent a token that is unmade by living end)
December 8, 2017 7:13 a.m.
Well the problem is caused by the trio of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thalia's Lieutenant & Kitesail Freebooter
With chump blocking they can survive long enough, to pump up some creatures with Thalia's Lieutenant to the point where 2 Hollow One on turn 2 is just not good enough.
On the off chance i play 1 or more Demigod of Revenge i can beat this problem.
But Kitesail Freebooter makes executing this plan very hard.
Even more so if paired up with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, who makes hard to loot for Hollow One/Demigod of Revenge, and brutally punishes when i keep a 1 lander hand, on the virtue of multiple loot effects.
And due to Aether Vial & Collected Company this can all happen at instant speed :(
It feels like the demented lovechild of death and taxes, and merfolk - only it gets bigger, and does so faster...
(ofc Torpor Orb would mean game, but it needs to be in the opening hand (or first looting) to achieve anything against such a fast deck - so i don't know if i am able to run it in big enough number to affect the matchup)
The matchup just seems miserable - maybe they had a very good hand - but i feel that the deck is just not able to handle this.
December 7, 2017 4:31 p.m.
Don't underestimate the power of Chandra, Torch of Defiance +1, or Infernal Plunge ;)
When it comes to deck thinning, its generally is a non issue i agree.
The problem is that i have 15 lands.
Lets say i fetch 3, and discard 1 land to some looting effect.
"Yay"! i just reduced my chances of drawing a land by a ~1/3...
...which is bad in durdly matchups, where i like to win on the back of hardcast Demigod of Revenge if i can't finish the opponent of with early game aggression.
December 6, 2017 5:41 p.m.
So i have built a deck around Hollow One that functions pretty well: Dickhead Returns! - Modern Turbo Xerox
I have been running Blood Moon in the side for some time, problem is that its often too little to late, as a single basic is often enough to negate most of its effects.
Thus i looked up how working land denial decks, like ponza do.
Apparently they run land destruction to kill all basics.
So the question is, is it worth it to run Boom/Bust, over Molten Rain?
Since it needs fetches to function without screwing myself too.
And the 6 mana destroy all lands mode can be game on t4, which the deck can manage.
Do you guys think its worth the life loss, from fetches for green splash to play Boom/Bust & Ancient Grudge?
Or would i be better off sticking to Molten Rain?
(and if i guess correctly running fetches would mandate playing more than the current 15 lands, since thinning the deck from lands more, could easily lead to not drawing any in a reasonable timeframe - what should i cut in your opinion, if its worth the green spalsh?)
December 6, 2017 4:30 p.m.
I didn't mean to imply that Reality Shift is good in the current meta, however this is the instant speed "exile creature" spell that sultai got.
Its pointless against wheenie, but can catch hard to remove threats like Stormbreath Dragon, and would be able to interact well with recursive threats, like Kitchen Finks + Melira, Sylvok Outcast if they would be still played.
It can catch the stuff that tends to be used to hate on the removal of BGX Decks, stuff like Chameleon Colossus, Mirran Crusader ...etc.
Tl;Dr: its not Path to Exile, but its the closest thing the colors, got, and its situationally useful.
December 6, 2017 4:14 p.m.
Unconditional exile at instant speed is nothing to whine about. It can remove any problem creatures that can be targeted.
But its only good if you don't have better exile options and a vanilla 2/2 does not matter much for your deck.
December 6, 2017 7:28 a.m.
December 6, 2017 7:17 a.m.
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