Meren's in town now and I need help!
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on Nov. 26, 2015, 3:49 a.m. by clayperce
OK, I just got completely thrashed by the new Meren deck. It wasn't even a tuned deck, just the straight-out-of-the box precon. Ouch.
For whatever reason, my group just never played much graveyard/reanimate. So I had basically no answers, and as I look at my deck now, I'm not even sure of where to start. Except by asking y'all for help :-)
In a general sense, what's the best way for someone in Naya to answer graveyard/reanimation? Go faster? More spot removal? Give up and just bribe the Blue mages at the table to counter everything she tries? I'm not trying to make a dedicated Meren-killer here, just trying to figure out what types of cards I need to grab from my existing collection before we meet again this weekend.
In a more specific sense though, what changes should I make to my deck, Smashface Gardening w/ Rith (EDH Dragons) (besides main-decking Night Soil)? My knee-jerk reaction is to rush-order me some Scavenging Ooze, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, and Grafdigger's Cage. And maybe a Nevermore. But are there better answers (especially against Meren)? And even knowing there's a guy across town tuning up his deck for our next meeting, how much Meren-hate do I really need?
Thanks in advance for your help!
Consider running Song of the Dryads. It works a lot like Darksteel Mutation does.
Mimic Vat might also be good. I use to use it to counter Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.
November 26, 2015 5:50 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #5
To deal with Meren: Song of the Dryads, Darksteel Mutation, Lignify, and Helm of Possession.
To deal with other reanimate: Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Perilous Vault, and Ground Seal.
November 26, 2015 9:39 a.m.
So there are two answers to Meren, and neither are fantastic. Frankly, she's the most busted general WotC has printed in a long while, and the absence of the tuck rule doesn't help. Now, people have mentioned stuff like graveyard hate and exile effects. Yea, those are great, and you should use em. However, those rely on you actually drawing them and them not being destroyed. Here's how to actually deal with her and the deck she wants to run:
The first way to deal with the Meren player is to continuously kill her immediately after she is played to make sure she doesn't get any value in the end step. You also need to destroy the Meren players lands, regardless of how you or your playgroup feels about this, so that they can't just keep ramping up and re-playing her. Realistically, someone at the table needs to always have a kill spell ready to take her out immediately, or the game is going to get out of hand.
The second thing to keep in mind is that while the Meren player could be recurring anything, they are likely going to have a LOT of stuff like Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Marauder, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Burnished Hart, etc., to try and get their experience counters up. Well, as it so happens, there are a LOT of hexproof creatures and token generators in Naya, as well as some fantastic ways to destroy lands. So, honestly? You might need to bite the bullet and switch your deck up a bit. Stuff like Hornet Queen and the new Plated Crusher are perfect ways to answer stuff like that, as is Armageddon. Sure, you'll end up being "that guy", but you know what? You've prob won the game if you've got a Plated Crusher with a Loxodon Warhammer on board when no one has lands.
Anyway, these are my suggestions.
November 26, 2015 1:29 p.m.
Thanks TONS everyone ... my little Meren problem is a lot less intimidating now!
Y'all are awesome!
November 26, 2015 2:02 p.m.
Raging_Squiggle says... #9
As a competitive Meren player, I say challenge accepted, sir. ;)
November 26, 2015 2:50 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #10
kyuuri117 I kinda have to disagree. When you say gravehate "you rely on drawing them and them not getting destroyed" is not as good as constantly removing her at instant speed, sure, I guess, but you have to play much more removal for that(filling card slots), and you "have to rely on drawing them" too, except you need to draw specific cards over and over again, and its much more reliable to simply need to draw one card once, and represents far less card disadvantage.
Also, saying "realistically some one at the table needs to have a kill spell ready to kill her" isnt helping making his deck defeat meren, and its also simply not possible to expect everyone to run that much removal and direct said removal at meren each time.
As for armageddon, its both not really a anti-meren card, as it screws everyones deck over equally, and saying "youve probably already won the game if you have a plated crusher with a hammer on the field and no one has lands" is also equally wacky. Sure, if they have no creatures and no lands maybe. And in that circumstance you are set up to have the advantage against any deck, running armageddon as an anti-meren card specifically does nothing special against meren.
Finally I do not know how fleshbag marauder, sakura tribe elder and burnished hart are bad against a plated crusher? They seem to share nothing in common with each other, and saying plated crusher is a good answer to them makes no sense really.
November 26, 2015 6:55 p.m.
I would say that grave hate is your best bet; however, stifle effects work well too. The choice you have to make is eliminating the cause or the resources. Early game prevention is better. Meren takes over the longer the game goes on. Naya has awesome creature interaction. If I ran Naya. Fight, steal'nsac, and a few grave stops will give you the added flexibility to conquer Meren.
November 26, 2015 7:34 p.m.
RoarMaster Well, first of all, people tend to run much more single target removal in their decks than graveyard hate. And honestly, i'm going to have to assume you've not yet actually played against a Meren deck yet if you think that people aren't going to co-operate to see her dead.
Sure, realistically you can't expect someone at the table to always have removal up. But frankly, until the Meren player has been neutered enough in the early/mid game, the Meren player is automatically going to be the biggest threat on the board at all times. It doesn't matter if all they've done is sacrifice Sakura Tribe Elder over and over for five turns straight. The experience counters are impossible to get rid of, and eventually they are going to be able to freely bring back shit like Grave Titans and Sheoldred's to the battlefield. So, yes, expecting people to tutor for answers seems rational.
As far as Armageddon goes, it is an anti-Meren card. If you kill her a few times making her cost 8-12, and then wipe all the lands, they won't get getting their general back any time soon. Frankly, I don't care that it wipes everyone else's lands out, at all. The fact that it stops the Meren player from recurring Grave Titans/Sheoldreds/Shriekmaws etc., etc., is what matters.
Let me reiterate this. Not having lands to cast Meren, means that they won't be getting value out of Meren, which makes Armageddon and other land destruction cards Anti-Meren. Some decks, like Roon or mono-white Brimaz, or whatever, don't really care about their general. They use it for value. Decks like Meren are all about maximizing Meren's value. Sure, the cards do things by themselves, but they aren't back-breaking without Meren. Getting shriekmaw'd once is fine. Doom blade is a very mediocre card in EDH. Who cares if they've cast it once? But the ability to cast it once a turn? Yea, that's bad. Real* bad.
As far as the Crusher goes, you really need to actually read someone's post before you make a comment. I was clearly using Plated Crusher as an example of a random, hard to kill, big creature that is very quick at ending the game. It could be anything, the point is that you get a big creature out, cast Armageddon, and try to win from there.
Lastly, as far as the four creatures I named, I was just giving an example of the type of value cards the Meren player is likely to run. I specifically said that. Plated Crusher was just an example of a card that gets around recurring Shriekmaws. Stuff like his general Rith, and Hornet Queen, are cards that gets around Fleshbag Marauder. Burnished Hart and Sakura Tribe Elder are examples of ways that the Meren Player can use to very, very quickly rack up experience counters. I was telling him that he might have to run multiple hexproof creatures and multiple token generators to help make some of the cards in the Meren players deck useless. You took it way too literally.
November 26, 2015 8:15 p.m.
NoNeedToBragoBoutIt says... #13
I run Repopulate and Primal Command to cope with such situations. The command is great anyways and repopulate lets you do your thing at instant speed. Just wait for the right moment and bust her base.
November 26, 2015 8:42 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #14
1) You are right, I have not played against Meren yet, but on the other hand I have played too many games where people do not target the 'right' person, or the fact that Meren is much less scary than many other commanders. Ive seen people not remove Zur when he hits play, or waste an enchantment exile on something other than Purphoros, or let Edric get a half dozen creatures on the field. And if I was facing a table with those three and Meren, I wouldnt even consider wasting my cards trying to kill Meren, theres much bigger fish to fry.
2) She is not such a big a threat, after all, Sheoldred herself is scarier, not only bringing any sized creature back(regardless of counters), but also making opponents sac creatures. So really, she can bring back one fatty a turn if she wants late game and its not the end of the world.
3) Again your example of how armageddon is good against meren specifically is still flawed. How is armageddoning Meren better than armageddonoing Roon? Roon cant cast stuff, meren cant cast stuff, commander cards or otherwise, so both decks are equally nerfed by armageddon. Not having lands to cast Meren, means that they won't be getting value out of Meren..." next sentence Roon or mono-white Brimaz, or whatever, don't really care about their general. They use it for value." So in your own words, they are looking for value from their commander, and they cannot get it without lands. Equal punishment here.
4) I did read your post, maybe it was your lack of proper formatting/paragraph structure that confused me because "Meren player could be recurring anything, they are likely going to have a LOT of stuff like Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Marauder, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Burnished Hart, etc., to try and get their experience counters up. Well, as it so happens, there are a LOT of hexproof creatures and token generators in Naya..." should have probably been in seperate paragraphs if they were not meant to relate to each other at all. And if you really were simply using it as an example of a big hard to kill critter, why this--? "Stuff like Hornet Queen and the new Plated Crusher are perfect ways to answer stuff like that..." You say yourself that it is an answer to those cards...
November 26, 2015 8:55 p.m.
Shriekmaw is a targeted kill spell, so the innately-hexproof creatures listed apply to beating that.
Fleshbag Marauder is a "your choice" kill spell, so sac a token and don't care, e.g. Hornet Queen
That part of his post made sense, if you actually thought about it, which it looks like you didn't. No single creature defeats every type of removal in the game, which is an obvious statement i shouldn't have to make.
November 27, 2015 1:51 p.m.
RoarMaster says... #16
mortilus Yup I must have written 10 paragraphs without thinking :P
November 27, 2015 3 p.m.
poorpinkus says... #17
I'd say a mix of graveyard hate and Darksteel Mutation effects would be good, or maybe just replace grave hate with spot removal/exile. People might say that cards like Darksteel Mutation don't work well because, admittedly, Meren decks have a LOT of self-sacrifice effects, but when you think of it no matter what you're using a card to get rid of her, so you might as well have cards that get rid of her and have a chance of her not coming back for a while.
RoarMaster says... #2
Terminus/Condemn and other 'put on bottom' cards are good, Swords to Plowshares/Final Judgement and other exile cards work well too. Basically, you shouldnt need to add 'dead' cards to your deck like relic, crypt and cage, you just need to modify your(hopefully) already existing removal suite.
November 26, 2015 4:07 a.m.