Why are these cards Modern banned?
Modern forum
Posted on Aug. 30, 2014, 5:28 p.m. by DX5
There are a few cards that I'm not sure why they are banned in Modern and I would like to know if you guys can help me understand why.
Dark Depths : doesn't seem all that good unless there's a card that auto-removes counters that I'm unaware of
Dread Return : I feel like there's tons of cards just like this one for a similar cost.
Mental Misstep : Kinda makes sense as to why they banned it, but it doesn't seem that strong. I mean Spell Snare still exists and is probably better other than that non-blue decks can use MM.
Ponder : Doesn't seem so great of card draw that it deserves to be banned.
Preordain : Isn't Serum Visions better than this?
Is this a joke? You just named the 100% best cards on the ban list that can never be unbanned.
August 30, 2014 5:39 p.m.
IATEAREPUBLICAN says... #4
I also knew guys who played Mental Misstep in Mono-Red decks. And considering that all colors had a counter spell was kinda big. Or at least that's how it was explained to me.
August 30, 2014 5:42 p.m.
I feel like every other card on the banned list is better than these 5.
August 30, 2014 5:44 p.m.
MSU_Iced_Z says... #6
T1 Dark Depths , T2 Thespian's Stage = T2 Marit Lage
Zero Mana Counterspell in every deck, because who needs the color pie?
August 30, 2014 5:50 p.m.
MSU_Iced_Z says... #7
My bad, you need some kind of mana acceleration on the Dark Depths combo. Good thing that's hard to find...
August 30, 2014 5:51 p.m.
the cards on your list are all cards on the higher end of legacy and vintage OR banned/restricted in legacy and vintage
August 30, 2014 5:52 p.m.
Epochalyptik says... #9
You probably don't have much experience with these cards then.
Dark Depths can be a turn-two 20/20 with evasion and indestructible if you also play Vampire Hexmage and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth . You also play Thespian's Stage for more consistency.
Dread Return is one of the best reanimator enablers precisely because you can use it for free within some of the most powerful strategies. Check out some of the Legacy decks that use this card.
Mental Misstep 's name perfectly summarizes R&D's actions when they printed this card. It's one of the most powerful counterspells ever printed, and, if legal, most Modern decks would run it. Yes, even the nonblue ones. It just shuts down so many early game actions. Imagine every matchup having three or four of these things per deck and never getting anywhere until two or three turns into the game. On top of that, 1 and 2 are widely regarded as the most important CMCs in Modern.
Ponder and Preordain were banned because they make many good decks too consistently good for too little. They allow combo decks like Storm or Pyromancer Ascension to toolbox to their hearts' content. Also, Serum Visions is worse than Preordain because you don't get to pick the card you draw.
August 30, 2014 5:55 p.m.
Go ahead, make Preordain and Ponder legal in Modern. My Storm deck will thank you greatly. Also, like was said above, Dark Depths is a decent Legacy deck, Dread Return is used in Legacy Dredge, and Mental Misstep is even BANNED in Legacy.
Are those the 5 weakest cards on the Modern banned list? Maybe? But they need to be banned b/c of how degenerate their respective decks can get with them.
August 30, 2014 5:56 p.m.
SwiftDeath says... #11
These are in no way the best cards on the ban list but they definitely deserve to be on the ban list. Cards that are unquestionably banned are Umezawa's Jitte , Green Sun's Zenith , Stoneforge Mystic , Jace, the Mind Sculptor , Sensei's Divining Top , Skullclamp , Deathrite Shaman , Hypergenesis , and Glimpse of Nature are all better then what was listed.
August 30, 2014 5:57 p.m.
SwiftDeath has the right idea. That's probably the top 10 of the Modern Banned cards. I'd probably put Dark Depths in the Top 15 though, b/c of how hard an indestructible 20/20 can be to get rid of for some decks.
August 30, 2014 6 p.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #13
I really don't think there are "better" cards on the banned list. They are pretty much just all busted and that's all that matters.
August 30, 2014 6:11 p.m.
SwiftDeath says... #14
JWiley129: Dark Depths is definitely a tough card to deal with and I would put it at 11-12 out of the list. The only reason it isn't higher is because all it is is a single creature with no additional effects when it dies or enters or anything else. It is generally used to waste on spot removal spell and that's all if it doesn't stick. It can be bounced or Path to Exile d and there are several ways it can be dealt with in existing decks already.
August 30, 2014 6:24 p.m.
It is true that I don't have much experience with any of these cards because they have been banned since I ever played Magic.
August 30, 2014 7:13 p.m.
SwiftDeath: Top wasn't banned for power reasons. It really isn't THAT powerful, actually. The real reason it was banned was how it made games last much longer with people fiddling around with their topdeck for 5 minutes a turn, every turn. It was a nightmare for judges.
Deathrite Shaman is another card that isn't overly powerful. It is definitely very good but the reason it was banned was that it went into nearly every deck that could play it. It was just all around good and Wizards wanted more variation for the format. It will most likely end up being unbanned like Bitterblossom was.
August 30, 2014 8:57 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #17
So, if you ban Mental Misstep , how do you not ban Chalice of the Void ?
Out of all of these cards Mental Misstep should be unbanned. It's a card for a card, fair and square. Too many crazy one drops out there anyways, Mental Misstep is just one more, but also gets rid of those other unfair cards.
August 30, 2014 9:46 p.m.
sergiodelrio - the difference is that Chalice costs mana while Mental Misstep is free. And free is always better than not free.
August 30, 2014 9:57 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #19
I get that part, but once you spend 2 mana on the chalice, it will become a permanent Mental Misstep and even be able to counter it alongside some other cards on the ban list, not once, but all of them until it gets removed.
August 30, 2014 10:02 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #20
T1 Land, exile Simian Spirit Guide , play Chalice of the Void . Pass turn. Laugh.
August 30, 2014 10:04 p.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #21
But that takes 3 cards @sergiodelrio, whereas Mental Misstep takes 1 card and can be played t1 even if your opponent goes first. A 0 mana counterspell is just insane. Look at how much play Force of Will sees, and that's a 2 for 1 for you.
August 30, 2014 10:15 p.m.
sergiodelrio says... #22
So, InconspicuousPotato, I'm back to my first question now. Chalice of the Void is ALSO a 0 mana counterspell if you want to. Not only that, but it's adjustable and permanent.
And I also don't completely agree with your math... sure, you must have thee specific cards cards in my example. But one of them is a land, so you can scratch that out of the equasion. The other is a permanent as well - you'll keep it, and it will continue to work for you, so no disadvantage here. You'll only lose Simian Spirit Guide .
To be honest, I know what you mean and I understand your point of view. I just want to point out that it's tough to draw a line with these kind of things and arguments can be found for either side. I picked the other side :D
August 30, 2014 10:36 p.m.
Are the cards that were banned and never unbanned in extended still banned in modern? Like Goblin Lackey
August 30, 2014 11:10 p.m.
sergiodelrio go ahead and watch some vintage games with Mental Misstep . The card is wayyyyy to good. Chalice of the Void is ok but not heavily played in legacy, while Mental Misstep is banned because the card defined legacy.
August 30, 2014 11:36 p.m.
DarkMagician says... #25
Either you're very new or you're trolling if you can't see the degeneracy that is Mental Misstep .
Example scenario: Your opponent goes first and drops Delver of Secrets Flip then passes turn to you. You play your land, tap it, attempt to play your first card only for your opponent to Misstep your spell. (Your opponent essentially just Time Walk ed for free). Turn two your opponent flips delver, drops a land, swings for three and passes turn. You drop your second land, tap out and cast your two drop thinking you're safe from the Misstep only to be hit with a Spell Snare .
You've just been shut down on the two most important turns of the format. That's just to powerful in Modern, those kinds of plays are best if left in vintage.
August 31, 2014 4:37 a.m.
sergiodelrio says... #27
So now you're saying Spell Snare should be banned? Or the format can't take both? I still disagree, and I will even say that T1 timewalk is weak as hell.
Why not ban Simian Spirit Guide or Chancellor of the Tangle ? They push you to T2, also like timewalk.
I actually like the Force of Will comparison. The truth about that card is, that if you use it against an honest deck, it's probably a bad play.
Same thing with Mental Misstep . I totally agree that this card is a format changer. But in a world of Path to Exile and other unfair one drops, it could have forced a positive transformation to a slower modern metagame, as people would have to reconsider their op one drops.
PS: Your Delver of Secrets Flip could easily die to Gut Shot ... is that broken? Or are we timewalking again, because clearly most of the stronger one drop creatures have more than one toughness?
August 31, 2014 8:19 a.m.
I think FoW is a hard counter with no restrictions where as Mental Misstep is mostly a dead card late game or midrange.
August 31, 2014 9:18 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #29
The issue with Mental Misstep is that everyone (and I mean, literally EVERYONE) would play it. Delver and other tempo strategies would become too powerful. Stopping a turn 1 play is very strong, because often that is a mana accelerant, threat or otherwise. You're definitely underestimating the impact it would have. Strategies like Affinity, Burn and Infect would be simply thrown from the metagame because of it, and every blue deck would be forced to play it if only to counter other Mental Misstep s. That's what it came to in Legacy before it was banned.
When you introduce a free counterspell without an actual drawback, things will go bad fast.
August 31, 2014 9:31 a.m.
InconspicuousPotato says... #30
Chalice of the Void is barely a 0 mana counterspell. If you pay 0 mana it only counters 0 cost cards, of which there are very few.
August 31, 2014 10:59 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #31
About the other cards you asked about:
Dark Depths - This was a combo deck with Vampire Hexmage or Thespian's Stage , and was deemed too powerful because it dominated Extended and it's very hard to interact with the actual combo because it's land-based.
Dread Return - This card was banned in conjunction with Golgari Grave-Troll , because of the fear that Dredge would be too dominant. It's a free reanimation spell, as you can sacrifice your Narcomoeba s to get some giant thing very fast.
Ponder + Preordain - These cards made blue combo decks too consistent, evidenced by Splinter Twin winning Pro Tour Philly. WotC didn't want these to be played in every deck.
August 31, 2014 11:03 a.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #32
About the other cards you asked about:
Dark Depths - This was a combo deck with Vampire Hexmage or Thespian's Stage , and was deemed too powerful because it dominated Extended and it's very hard to interact with the actual combo because it's land-based.
Dread Return - This card was banned in conjunction with Golgari Grave-Troll , because of the fear that Dredge would be too dominant. It's a free reanimation spell, as you can sacrifice your Narcomoeba s to get some giant thing very fast.
Ponder + Preordain - These cards made blue combo decks too consistent, evidenced by Splinter Twin winning Pro Tour Philly. WotC didn't want these to be played in every deck.
August 31, 2014 11:03 a.m.
canterlotguardian says... #33
So basically all this comes down to is "the player base complains too much, so we have to play strict daddy"?
September 5, 2014 12:57 p.m.
GlistenerAgent says... #34
No, what it comes down to is "the format is broken, so we need to fix it so people can enjoy a balanced landscape of matchups".
September 5, 2014 2:58 p.m.
I think the biggest problem with Mental Misstep is that it punished players for good deck building. Efficient early game cards were pointless with it around. It did make modern a bit more drawn out which I kinda enjoyed but it was very punishing to a lot of deck designs.
September 5, 2014 4:19 p.m.
"I will even say that T1 Time Walk is weak as hell."
lolwat.
...on top of not understanding that using three cards and tapping a land for a symmetrical effect is a lot worse than using one card with no additional resources.
I would ask if you see the problem with every deck in Modern starting with four copies of Mental Misstep , but somehow I think your answer is "no problem at all."
September 5, 2014 6:12 p.m.
SkyRaider42 says... #37
sergiodelrio, I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this to you.
September 6, 2014 7:49 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #38
I'll briefly interject into this otherwise entertaining discussion (I have cataloged 2:16 for later reference in my daily life) to explain a bit more about Mental Misstep .
At least part of the reason Mental Misstep is banned is that it is the kind of card that can warp every deck. I think Wizards fears that Mental Misstep being legal will degenerate the format into a vicious cycle of being forced to play Mental Misstep to shut down opponents' decks and being forced to eschew or lose to counterspells many format-defining 1-drops. The point about being forced to play Mental Misstep is especially relevant because it's playable in any deck. There are no color requirements.
And the difference between Mental Misstep and Chalice of the Void is that Mental Misstep doesn't set the caster back. Chalice of the Void counters spells indiscriminately, which is part of the reason it's not overwhelmingly used as an answer to 1-drops. The other part of the reason is that it costs mana to cast. Mental Misstep doesn't.
I'll also note Wizards' official statement on Mental Misstep in Modern:
Of blue cards that are legal in Modern, Mental Misstep is the most played in Legacy, and it also has one of the more damaging effects on Modern by sitting on beatdown decks that want to start on turn one. We chose to ban it rather than put that much pressure on beatdown decks. Source
September 6, 2014 8:06 a.m.
@sergiodelrio the reason why mental misstep is so good is just because it puts your opponent 1 turn behind you. Ex. i go first land drop into a Goblin Guide and attack. your move you play a land and cast a spell and i mental misstep it. now you're behind a turn i get an extra 2 damage in with my guide when i attack. it just puts you so far behind and at such a disadvantage.
November 28, 2014 12:38 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #40
@mono3474: That post wasn't worth the necro. Check the post dates next time.
November 28, 2014 12:41 a.m.
@Epochalyptik: For the love of Richard Garfield, can we please get a lock on nonactive threads with no responses past a few weeks or months? Every time a thread gets necro'd, Richard reaches into a door, pulls out a Black Lotus, and tears it to shreds.
quesobueno123 says... #2
Dark Depths is for Vampire Hexmage Combo
Dread Return Because 0 mana reanimator
Mental Misstep Counters a lot of good things for zero mana
Preordain You get to choose what you draw which is strictly better than Serum Visions
Ponder Very good draw where you get to pick what you draw.
August 30, 2014 5:33 p.m.