Weakest guild in standard
Standard forum
Posted on June 4, 2014, 8:52 a.m. by wallsh
In your |opinion| what do you think is the weakest guild and why?
Personally I feel izzet is the weakest. I don't play professionaly or anything but I watch alot of videos and read alot of articles and have seen very little to no izzet decks. It seems that it just doesn't have the same ability to make big plays as other guild colors.
so in your opinion which do you think is worse overall? Dimir or izzet in the sense of if you build an izzet and dimir deck for a standard tournament which would go further
June 4, 2014 8:57 a.m.
Dimir, without addition of white (without the ability to play azorius cards, basically) is the worst, in my opinion.
June 4, 2014 8:59 a.m.
Hate to say it since it's one of my two favorite guilds, but Dimir's been the least impressive, at least in standard. I finally managed to make one that was semi-competitive, but it took too long to perfect and will fizzle once rotation hits. Izzet izzen't great either, but they've got some decent stuff. Mixing the two together into Grixis works great for me, but by themselves, the guilds aren't great.
Which is really disappointing to me, because I feel like Dimir should have been a much stronger color combo. You could easily make an evil Dimir control deck in modern, but they just didn't get much love from Wizards this time around. They focused too much on milling and ciphering. I don't know what they have planned for Dimir next set, but I'm seeing elements of a more control-oriented mindset for Dimir in Theros, which makes me hopeful.
June 4, 2014 9:04 a.m.
JakeHarlow says... #6
Izzet can run a mean burn/control, and Keranos, God of Storms is a huge bomb for it. I run a competitive Izzet burn/control deck and it can win. Granted, many of the matchups with the top Standard decks are extremely tough, but I've pulled a couple top 3 FNM finishes with it. I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I'll go on record and say that Izzet is far from helpless in Standard. Is it the worst Guild? It's not the best, but it's not as bad as Dimir.
June 4, 2014 9:47 a.m.
I would agree with Dimir, it really lacks cards to make it threatening without splashing another color. I would disagree with Izzet completely, although not teir 1, the cards available are great just overshadowed by all the other guilds that include red. I have a friend who consistently wins with an Izzet deck.
June 4, 2014 10:03 a.m.
But can you think of any guilds apart from dimir that are worse than izzet?
June 4, 2014 10:18 a.m.
KnightsBattlecry001 says... #9
Dimir hands down. It doesn't have enough bang to do much unless you splash a third color. Wizards didn't show enough love for the guild with RTR block. With Theros block though it's gotten some stuff to help it, and I've seen a few Dimir decks that could hold their own. Not enough to place top 8 or whatever, but around middle of the pack.
Izzet I've looked at being almost middle tier as far as the guilds go. With card just from RTR block it's lower, but with Theros it's a hell of a lot better. Keranos, God of Storms really gave Izzet a boost IMO.
June 4, 2014 10:28 a.m.
Azorius
Gruul
Orzhov
Golgari
Selesnya
Boros
Simic
Rakdos
Izzet
Dimir
Something like that. Roughly.
June 4, 2014 10:34 a.m.
simic is pretty weak right now as well. i'd put all three of these toward the bottom right now, with izzet maybe being the strongest of the three and maaaaybe simic being weakest?
it's funny, mono black and mono blue are two of the most popular tier 1 strategies right now, and black splashing pretty much any color can be competitive, but a competitive dimir build doesn't appear to have hit the mainstream.
June 4, 2014 10:35 a.m.
Obviously there are some great blue and black cards, but as far as multicolored BU cards, Wizards kinda dropped the ball (not that every one needs to be both colors, but for every Athreos, there's a Phenax). Sure, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
is great against the right deck, and Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
is proving to be the lil' planeswalker that could, but most Dimir rares & Mythics just aren't cutting it. Consuming Aberration
can be good in the right deck, especially with Phenax, God of Deception
but you'd have to build around them to really get efficiency out of them. Breaking
and Mind Grind
are actually pretty good, but milling just isn't a winning strategy at most FNMs (go for it in casual, though). Reap Intellect
is ultimately a waste of a mythic due to the cost (if it were 2 less, It'd be great).
What makes me sad is that so many of these cards could have been great. Even the cipher mechanic could've worked if they were cheaper to cast. I just get the vibe that Wizards might've originally made Dimir too powerful, so they nerfed them, but took it too far and wound up crippling the guild.
June 4, 2014 11:01 a.m.
ChiefBell- Honestly, I would put rakdos in front of simic. Some of the rakdos aggro decks around are pretty scary, and not many people really play simic without turning it into BUG or Bant (or RUG, but less so). We're seeing some really great rakdos decks, but all we see from simic is Mono Green Devo splashing blue. Master Biomancer s and Prime Speaker Zegana s have dissappeared.
I have to fully agree with the rest of your list, though.
June 4, 2014 12:09 p.m.
There's been big changes since JOU's release. It's kinda hard to put a 1-10 without being bias. Strictly playing 2 colors I would:1: Orzhov2: Azorius/Gruul/Golgari/Selesnya/Boros3: Rakdos4: Simic5: Izzet/DimirI agree with flyguy on Simic, but there's no way Azorius is where it was near the beginning of the year.
Mono's I would list: MBD is king, followed by MUD and MGD, then MB-Aggro.Top 3 color decks only have to be G/x/x Midrange/Monster or W/U/x Control.
June 4, 2014 1:14 p.m.
So this is my list :1)Selesnya2)Boros3)Gruul4)Rakdos5)Azorius6)Golgari-Orzhov7)Simic8)Izzet9)Dimir
June 4, 2014 2:05 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #17
I think Boros is one of the better color combos. Burn strategies as well as classic aggro are both flexible and viable in today's Standard. Boros aggro in particular has many ways to defend itself from control and midrange right now. Boros Charm , Brave the Elements , Gods Willing , even (more rarely) Legion's Initiative . Let's not forget Fiendslayer Paladin , which dodges roughly 80% of the most commonly-used removal in Standard. I'd definitely place Boros at tied for #2 or #3. Orzhov and Azorius would be my top contenders for #1. Izzet seems, in my mind, to be firmly in the middle of the pack, while Simic and Dimir are the bottom feeders. I would not place Rakdos as low as I've seen it on some of the other folks' lists, since it has serious aggro power as well as midrange potential. Not to mention Mogis and his minotaurs.
June 4, 2014 2:17 p.m.
Yeah, I'd actually rank Radkos much higher - I've got (and also seen) a few Rakdos agro decks that consistently get to top 8 on FNMs. Granted, I don't see them do much at Pro events, but for FNM's, I can't complain.
June 4, 2014 2:21 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #19
I'm going to have to go with Dimir as well. Cipher was a total flop, and the whole milling theme of RTR block and Phenax, God of Deception was about as uncompetitive as one should expect, to put it nicely. Also, Dimir Charm was arguably the worst of the Charm cycle, and most 2-3 color decks make use of one. Finally, the combo of Black and Blue doesn't exactly scream aggro, and without access to Supreme Verdict and Sphinx's Revelation , it's damn near impossible to make a competitive control deck too.
Izzet would probably be my runner-up since it also lacks the resources to make a competitive control deck, and the strategies that you see revolving around Guttersnipe , Young Pyromancer , etc. tend to be pretty vulnerable.
June 4, 2014 2:24 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #20
Izzet is most certainly not at the top, and the most competitive sorts of Izzet builds are horridly vulnerable to hand disruption a la Thoughtseize , Duress , Sin Collector , and Brain Maggot . Spell-heavy Izzet decks are actually pretty decent against matchups without access to hand disruption. Hexproof (Selsnya/Naya) is a problem too, but with sweeps like Mizzium Mortars and Anger of the Gods , Izzet has a fighting chance. It's not going to be a regular Top 8 contender but it's not even in the same conversation as Simic or Dimir, in my experience.
June 4, 2014 2:34 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #21
I honestly can't remember the last time I saw an Izzet deck make Top 8 at my LGS (funny enough, I have seen Dimir but still think it's the worst). Simic, on the other hand, definitely has a presence, usually in the form of GU Monsters, which I played a couple months ago and made Top 4/8 several times, or MUD splash Green.
June 4, 2014 2:45 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #22
I've built an Izzet deck that has made the top 8 at my LGS before, but there are factors outside of card strength that contributed to that.
June 4, 2014 4:12 p.m.
BoromirOfGondor says... #23
When was the last time anyone has seen a Simic or Izzet deck make a top 8?
Simic was briefly a potent build in the competitive scene, but quickly faded into the recesses of standard. GU monsters is simply not as consistent as the Mono-Green build, nor as strong as GRx.
Izzet is garbage in standard. Enough said.
June 5, 2014 9:21 p.m.
Seen waaaay more nivix blitz and spellheart decks top 8 than dimir decks.
June 5, 2014 9:23 p.m.
Simic will get flushed though when it rotates.
It has almost nothing going for them in Theros Block.
June 6, 2014 3:10 a.m.
To be honest, I can see why Izzet wouldn't get much love here, but with Dack Fayden coming up in Conspiracy, casual players (i.e. me) are going to be going crazy. Dack can mix with Jace's Erasure to mill 2 every time you +1 him and then add other mill spells and you've got an opening to throw down Phantasms at 5/5 for 1. Not to mention you could combine him with Jace's Archivist and then put in some just pure evil red cards and after building a sufficient mill package based off of these cards, but together a red burn package and add some other blue control noncreature spells.Personally, yes. Izzet is slow in standard and to really make a pop, you need mid-game huge drops that practically nuke the field like Searing Blood or other burn spells with Guttersnipe on the field to make huge swings.
And I don't discriminate here. I love Dimir too. Sure, cipher was a little weak, but I could care less. We're also talking about the guild that gave us an easy exchange when Mind Sculpt left rotation, leaving us Breaking. Mind Grind was even funnier. Oh hey, let's just make X = 5 or 6. Just for funsies.
June 6, 2014 9:05 a.m.
IMO Dimir is the worst, thou the leader and the champion are not the worst....
June 6, 2014 9:05 a.m.
We have to remember that simic got Kiora, the Crashing Wave in Botg. That has helped it out a bit. I would agree that dimir with its mill based stray is the weakest. Its not fun to play as or against.
June 6, 2014 11:05 a.m.
Kiora is awful and doesnt fit Simic at all.
She fits Bant.
June 6, 2014 3:05 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #30
Kiora is a good card for card advantage and ramp. Fits really well in a Bant Maze's End deck. She fogs, draws, and ramps. In addition to her ult, which is basically a win con.
I really don't think she fits well with Ravnica-flavored Simic play, at all.
June 6, 2014 3:48 p.m.
ChrisHansonBiomancin says... #31
I agree that Kiora isn't a Simic card at all, but rather a control card since she pretty much demands boardwipes and counterspells to protect her frail body. I almost want to scream when I see her included in Simic Monsters decks over better pw's like Jace, Architect of Thought and Garruk, Caller of Beasts .
Anyways, Simic Monsters seems to be set up pretty well for next rotation. Green has some great staples like Sylvan Caryatid , Courser of Kruphix , and Polukranos, World Eater , and the odds are that a one-drop dork will be in M15 along with a new Jace and Garruk. Also, the next boardwipe will not be as devastating as Supreme Verdict since it will probably be counterable. Prophet of Kruphix is insane and way underrated in Standard. All in all, it should be a competitive build even if it's not tier 1, as it is now.
June 6, 2014 5:55 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #32
Definitely possible. I think BUG control will be even more incredible than it already is especially with the rotation of its unfavorable matchups.
ChiefBell says... #2
It's between izzet and dimir. In esper control it is basically azorius splash black, so I'm not sure how much that counts towards it being solid.
I don't see many izzet decks at all and I don't think I've ever seen a competitive dimir deck.
June 4, 2014 8:56 a.m.