why is vexing devil bad
Modern forum
Posted on May 25, 2014, 8:11 p.m. by Fistfulvengence
so i heard around my lgs that vexing devil just isn't good. i wanna put it in my jund deck.
vampirelazarus says... #3
I don't know how it'll be in a jund deck, because honestly, I've never played with or against one, but I do know that Vexing Devil is pretty beastly.
I honestly don't know how the argument got started that its bad, but someone with some weight somewhere probably said it was bad, and everyone responded like sheep that it was bad.
May 25, 2014 8:19 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #4
RDW and Co. adore vexing devil. I miss that card like crazy and even have included 4 in my most recent deck
May 25, 2014 8:24 p.m.
The thing is, its not bad, its just not amazing, because it gives your opponent a choice. It can either be a 4 damage burn spell, or a super undercosted beater that eats removal. But the choice is your opponent's, and they can choose whichever scenario fits their hand the best.
May 25, 2014 8:25 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #6
In rdw it's amazing, in jund, I'm not sure, it works well with a fetch land, then play him, if the opponent takes 4 to the face, do a t2 goyf and it's a 2/3 if the opponent just does land pass.
May 25, 2014 8:32 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #7
The way I view it is they're using wasting removal on the devil and not your more important things even if that seems to fit their hand though in jund I feel that it doesn't seem ideal because he isn't goodstuff.dek material...Slap it into a Proclamation of Rebirth type burn though..now that is good stuff
May 25, 2014 8:36 p.m.
Magiclover318 says... #8
Proclamation of Rebirth is too slow I believe. But I don't know.
May 25, 2014 8:48 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #9
I'm going to confidently respond to whomever said Vexing Devil is a bad card has no idea what they're talking about. He's a 4x of in RDW, putting the opponent in a rough spot. I sac it and you take 4 damage? Sweet for R and it's Grim Lavamancer fuel. You don't and I get swing for 4 next turn? Even better. It eats a removal spell so my bomb can stick? Groovy. The opponent asks himself, "Do I take 4 now or 8 later? Should I remove it now or save it for later?"
In Modern Red Deck Wins, Devil is a powerhouse. It's been debated whether or not he's good in Legacy, but I'm testing that theory. In Modern Jund, it's a maybe. Could be good. Perhaps even in a super Aggro Zoo list he could be good as well. Vexing Devil can and will do a lot of work for you if played correctly, because it's a damn good card.
May 25, 2014 9 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #10
Experiment One can have a friend in Vexing Devil were you to go for an aggro direction.
May 25, 2014 9:13 p.m.
julianjmoss says... #11
Its not bad, the issue is, later on in the game, it is pretty easy for your opponent to deal with and they are always going to pick the option that you don't want them to pick. he is boltable range, can be countered and hit by abrupdt decay and all removal. He is very good for his cmc its just that at a competative level, he is edged out. that being said, he is great in mono red and i have 8 of them so hmu if you are interested.
May 25, 2014 10:31 p.m.
Id say it mediocre at best in modern and completely unplayable in legacy, Lightning Bolt is a card in both formats, but in legacy I can say alright it sticks. Then land, Show and Tell , Griselbrand and guess what the player with the Vexing Devil feels really bad. In modern on the other hand no combo kills before turn 4 so if they dont have a removal spell they can take 4 or die quickly. In the end it gives your opponent a choice which isnt good because they just pick the choice that is best for them.
May 25, 2014 10:38 p.m.
It's pretty bad. Early game, it's just a marginally better Lava Spike (or worse, since they have they option to occasionally make it a creature when that's preferrable). Late game, it just chumps random goyfs/oozes/wurmcoils/whatever. It's almost always a bad play.
May 25, 2014 11:41 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #14
Honestly, dies to (insert removal spell / counterspell here) is such a tired argument to me. 1 mana, 4 damage or put your opponent in a 1 for 1 situation? That isn't bad...choices may put your opponent in control slightly but this card is literally "rock and a hard place" choices. Now personally I like to have ways to bring him back repeatedly but still what more do you want from a creature? Also I should mention that I play him alongside Athreos, God of Passage in a R/W/B deck and he goes to town on people. I like giving them the choice because it makes your opponent think and it sets up mind games when played skillfully. I can very honestly say that in any of the decks containing this guy have I ever regretted playing it and with a price tag of about 7 bucks USD, I'm not the only 1
May 25, 2014 11:50 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #15
In Legacy, a 3-damage burn spell is more consistent, and therefore more powerful.
In Modern, he's really good in hyper-aggressive decks. If your deck has any intention of playing a grindy game, then you want every spell to do exactly what you want it to every time. Vexing Devil just can't promise that.
May 25, 2014 11:51 p.m.
aeonstoremyliver says... #16
Turn 4 Vexing Devil and unless he's Path to Exile d, remove or sac, Brimstone Volley ... That has won me games.
The 'dies to removal' argument can be said of almost any creature. The key is what Devil can synergize with. As I mentioned before, if they waste removal on Devil, I can have something else I want to stick.
In Legacy, yeah he's definitley not as good as in Modern due to the pace of the format. Ashen Rider does wonders against Show and Tell on the other hand.
May 26, 2014 12:03 a.m.
notamardybum says... #17
vexing devil is the tits, the bees knees, and something else thats cool. easily my favorite 1 drop ever.
May 26, 2014 12:25 a.m.
ColdHeartedSith says... #18
If it were bad it wouldn't be 8 bucks. He fits modern and was a beast in standard. He can be ok in legacy in a deck that runs sacrifice spells because your opponent can say ok it sticks because they have removal but will wait till after your next turn and combat usually to see what you are going to try. Sacrifice as paying part of a cost isnt respondable, so you could use Infernal Plunge or Fling exc
May 26, 2014 1:56 a.m.
Fistfulvengence says... #19
i want to run him because i also run a play set of oozes.
May 26, 2014 4:56 p.m.
1) Price of a card means fuck all in terms of its playability. Hazezon Tamar is $40, that doesn't mean he's in the same category as Noble Hierarch for Legacy. Vexing Devil is $8 because a bunch of people play him.
2) Normally, the "dies to Doom Blade " is a terrible argument. That's because not every deck plays Doom Blade . However, over 50% of the meta plays Lightning Bolt . The decks that don't, like Affinity, have other Lightning Bolt -type spells, such as Galvanic Blast or Path to Exile .
3) Figure of Destiny is a much stronger card. He provides early game pressure, can live through Lightning Bolt , helps the deck curve out along with Grim Lavamancer , etc. etc. More importantly, he takes away the choice given to an opponent regardless of what's in their hand.
Seriously, Vexing Devil does nothing for the deck that Ball Lightning , Figure of Destiny , Shard Volley , Burst Lightning , Magma Jet , or any other burn spell/cost efficient creature doesn't do better and more effectively. Vexing Devil is a lot better on paper than he is in actual gameplay.
May 26, 2014 7:36 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #21
Price of card speaks a lot louder than you give credit. Price is a reflection of supply/demand especially since the set it was printed in had a large print run. The fact that there are a huge amount of that card printed and yet it still remains that high shows that many run it and that it works.
The fact that he eats all of those of which you stated protects other more important creatures from being the target of them. Also I'd rather have a bolt aimed at my guy than my life most of the time.
Figure of Destiny requires roughly 5 mana to reach the same power as devil and you have to hold mana for that to even happen. Explain how a 4/3 for 1 is equal to a 1/1 for 1 please. Me thinks your arguments are a bit flawed.
May 26, 2014 8:44 p.m.
GoldGhost012 says... #22
I agree with VampireArmy. Figure of Destiny in Modern, especially in burn, is far, far too slow and vulnerable. How exactly does he and Grim Lavamancer help curve out? T1 Figure, T2 evolve the Figure and play Lavamancer, T3 evolve the Figure again, T4 finally play other spells. You're very slow and other decks have already begun killing you, especially if you don't want to block with your two creatures. Not to mention that not only can evolving Figure can be responded to, you're also incredibly vulnerable to Pyroclasm , Galvanic Blast , and any creature with 2+ power. Plus killspells. I just don't see how such a slow and vulnerable creature is better than a burn spell/Tarmogoyf chump.
May 26, 2014 9:02 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #23
A search for modern on mtgtop8.com reveals this:
Vexing Devil has top 8ed 153 times in the past 2 years.
Figure of Destiny has top 8ed 54 times in the last 3 years.
It should be noted that nearly every appearance of Figure of Destiny is in a Zoo deck of some kind or Martyr Life and Vexing Devil appears in RDW and Burn fairly exclusively.
May 26, 2014 9:15 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #25
Well i must ask was it largely tribal zoo that includes st traft? In that deck i can see figure for sure but in a deck more aimed around scooze and goyf the devil just seems better
May 26, 2014 9:21 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #26
Also, sylvannos AFAIK Hazezon Tamar was priced the way he is due to some EDH shenanigans, someone bought all the stock and drove up demand or some such.
May 26, 2014 9:22 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #27
here is the first list that was labeled Zoo.
Seems to be KoR Zoo.
May 26, 2014 9:23 p.m.
I like the idea of Athreos, God of Passage in a deck with Vexing Devil and Treacherous Pit-Dweller
Vexing Devil = 4/3 for R, or pay 7 life... (or pay 4 life to return it to my hand).
Treacherous Pit-Dweller = 4/3 for BB... if it dies, you can pay 3... if you do you can get it as a 5/4... BUT if it dies again, you have to pay another 3, or I'll get it back.
May 26, 2014 10:03 p.m.
Circular Logic . "Vexing Devil is good because he costs money, and he costs money because he's good" is not a good reason to consider putting him in your deck. Exquisite Blood is from the same set at the same rarity and is nearly as much, but that doesn't mean it's a good card, especially in Modern. Vexing Devil is $8 because a bunch of people fall into the trap of playing him instead of the other bazillion cards that could take his place and do the same job, only better.
You missed my point. The fact is that you're handing over control to your opponent on what your card is going to do. If I play Figure of Destiny instead of Vexing Devil , I know my opponent will want to kill it. If I play Bump in the Night instead of Vexing Devil , I know my opponent will take 3+ damage unless they counter it. If I just play Vexing Devil , I have no idea what it might do because my opponent is the only one who has access to what's in their hand.
Figure of Destiny is just one example, but you can play a plethora of other cards that are guaranteed to get the damage in that you want. In the case of Figure of Destiny , you will immediately get a 2/2 when you untap with it, which gets in for 2. If they would Lightning Bolt your Vexing Devil , they'd do the same to Figure of Destiny . If they wouldn't Lightning Bolt or are unable to kill Figure of Destiny , you're now free to make it a 3/3, possibly doing 5 damage or more with him. Vexing Devil is only good on turn one, and after that he's a dead draw. Figure of Destiny is better almost every turn after because he helps you dump mana when you start running out of gas.
@GoldGhost012: So what happens when your opponent has Kitchen Finks ? Or Scavenging Ooze ? Or Courser of Kruphix ? Or Lightning Helix ? Or casts Mana Leak on your Rift Bolt ? All of a sudden, they're out of kill range and you have no way of doing repeated amounts of damage over a longer game. Why do you think the original RDW in Extended started playing Grim Lavamancer ? Or why Sligh used Cursed Scroll ? You hit your opponent with a bunch of burn spells, then if they're still somehow alive, you finish them off with mana sinks. Therefore, you're curving out. Grim Lavamancer is basically RDW's five-drop.
@Ohthenoises: ...and what was the win percentage of those decks? Zoo was 16% of the meta at PT: BNG, making it the most played deck at the event. Zero of them made top 8. Likewise, out of all those decks with Vexing Devil that made top 8, how many of them didn't make top 8?
It doesn't have to be Figure of Destiny . A lot of those decks playing Vexing Devil are in Modern Daily events, where people are playing on a budget. That means no fetch lands to take advantage of Grim Lavamancer or Bump in the Night . The bottom line is that Vexing Devil is only good turns one and two, meaning you want him in your opening hand. After that, he's terrible. The problem is you need him as a four-of if you want to guarantee him that early, but then you don't want to draw the third or fourth copies later in the game. Not to mention, you almost always want to lead with Goblin Guide or Spark Elemental .
May 27, 2014 5:48 a.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #30
Here's what makes Vexing Devil good: It's either a 4 damage Lightning Bolt or it's a one drop that forces removal out of your opponent's hand.
May 27, 2014 8:13 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #31
sylvannos Look, honestly I don't care, I linked mtgtop8 because they track all of the top8 appearances in major events and MTGO events. Run a search for either card and you can see what I was quoting.
If a deck top8s it's usually because it's good, this helps cut the wheat from the chaff.
May 27, 2014 9:40 a.m.
chrishuffman95 says... #32
I'm going to put this simply:
It's good because it either:
1) Is a 4/3 on turn 1 and can force a removal spell from an opponent's hand that they wouldn't be able to use later
or
2) Is a loss of 4 life to the opponent on turn 1, which is better then a T1 Lightning Bolt
Dies to removal is the most flawed argument to this card, I believe. If they use a removal spell on it early game, that's one less removal spell they have late game against your Grim Lavamancers or Goblin Guides later on.
May 27, 2014 9:58 a.m.
Wizard of the Damned says... #33
The wizard Loveth himself to the devil for in the wizard's opinion it is the best tome red has seen in many azure moons excluding bolt
May 27, 2014 10:42 a.m.
@Ohthenoises: So no rebuttal? Nice.
@chrishuffman95: It's not just that it dies to removal, it's that there's plenty of other stuff that fills the same role, only you're guaranteed to have that outcome, not give the choice to the opponent. If you want something to just eat a removal spell, why not play another creature? If you just want four damage, why not play another burn spell?
Here's an example I've seen too many times in Modern:
Opening up turn one with Vexing Devil instead of Goblin Guide is the same as opening with Lava Spike , except you give your opponent a chance to do what's convenient. What if I have a Tarmogoyf to just block Goblin Guide sitting in my hand? So you go turn one Vexing Devil , I Lightning Bolt it, you play Goblin Guide and suspend a Rift Bolt on turn two, swinging in.
I play Tarmogoyf and now your Goblin Guide doesn't do anything unless you want to Rift Bolt on Tarmogoyf and get two-for-one'd. I'm still at 13~15 life at this point, depending on which land I played. If I took the four from Vexing Devil , I didn't take the damage at all from Goblin Guide due to killing it with Lightning Bolt , so I'm still at 10~12 life after Rift Bolt .
Compare that to opening with Goblin Guide , swing for 2. My turn one, I Lightning Bolt Goblin Guide . Your turn two, you suspend Rift Bolt and Lava Spike me. I play Tarmogoyf and I'm still at the same 10~12 life. Except, you took away my options of playing around Vexing Devil . Same damage, same number of cards. I, the opponent, just didn't have a choice.
This is probably too elaborate an example, but it comes up more often than not. Why not just play the cards where you know what the outcome is instead of relying on mystery cards in your opponent's hand?
May 27, 2014 5:57 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #35
But the deck that runs Vexing Devil , Lava Spike and Goblin Guide is doing it's job better if you're at 10-12 rather than 13-15...
May 27, 2014 6:07 p.m.
@MindAblaze!: You're at 10~12 regardless of whether you played Vexing Devil or not.
May 27, 2014 6:11 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #37
Part of it is the mindfuck of playing against a potential 4/3 on turn 2. If you drop your goyf on turn 2 and block it's still a trade most likely.
I think the key here is neither option is good for the mana. Yes, there are many situations where I'd rather have the Lava Spike but in those cases I'm sure I'll have a plethora of other options...if not then I've probably lost anyway. It does have synergy with Grim Lavamancer too, and as everyone has said...if it eats a removal spell or gets chump blocked by a goyf...you're still winning.
May 27, 2014 6:11 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #38
sylvannos. Really? Not sure why you skipped over polite conversation and went right for being a jerk but fine, you want a rebuttal?
Mtgtop8.com doesn't show all of the decks that entered. The statistics I quoted were nearly all top 8 finishes. So you asking for "win percentages of those decks" means about as much as the empty space in a donut. Simply put, if it's on the mtgtop8 it's probably good.
I mentioned that you should go to the site and run a search for yourselves. Seems like you didn't do that?
Also, "Likewise, out of all those decks with Vexing Devil that made top 8, how many of them didn't make top 8?" LOL wut?
"decks with Vexing Devil that made top 8, how many of them didn't make top 8?"
May 27, 2014 6:15 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #40
I WASN'T going to mention it and let it slide but ..... /shrug.
May 27, 2014 6:20 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #41
I really think we closed the case on this one...It's either a discard spell or a burn spell that requires good old red dedication...Not every good card in magic is as obviously good as snapcaster lightning bolt it is kin...some cards are good for the ninja factor
May 27, 2014 6:20 p.m.
@Ohthenoises: When you say "I don't really care what your opinion is, you're wrong," yeah, I tend to skip over being polite. I went through mtgtop8...where do you think I'm pulling ideas from for this conversation? There's a plethora of RDW players that made top 8 without using Vexing Devil , and I'd say they're using a better list. They're doing the exact same thing with the same results, only they take away options from the opponent
"Also, "Likewise, out of all those decks with Vexing Devil that made top 8, how many of them didn't make top 8?" LOL wut?"
Just because there's a few decks that made top 8 for an archetype or card doesn't mean that archetype or card is the optimal choice. Say top 8 looks like 4 RDW, 2 Pod decks, and 2 Splinter Twin decks. Seems like RDW is the best deck, right? Not exactly if it was a 32 person event and 28 people were playing RDW. That means 100% of the Pod and Twin decks made top 8, while only 14% of the RDW players made top 8. If we use MtGTop8 and search for Vexing Devil under Professional and Major events, there's only 2 decks that made top 8 using it.
MtGTop8 also includes Modern Daily events and events from 2012 (such as this one).
May 27, 2014 6:46 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #43
Literally ALL I said was "Look, honestly I don't care" That references this whole conversation. I came in to provide hard numbers and that is all, I have no feelings on whether Vexing Devil is good or bad.
I never said you were wrong. Period, end of story.
Also, about the thing I quoted. You don't see the grammatical fail of the sentence you posted?
"Likewise, out of all those decks with Vexing Devil that made top 8, how many of them didn't make top 8?"
out of all the decks with [insert card] in it that made top 8, how many made top 8?
The correct answer to this question is this: All of them. All of the decks with [insert card] that made top 8, made top 8.
Now, if you were asking how many decks with [insert card] that entered the event did not make top 8 that is completely different question.
May 27, 2014 6:58 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #44
In fact, the ONLY thing I had originally tagged you on was about Hazezon Tamar 's price. I'm not sure why I got tagged for anything else in the first place.
May 27, 2014 7:14 p.m.
@Ohthenoises: It's hard to tell what someone intends over the internet. When you tag me in something, then lead with "I don't care," it really looks like you're simply dismissing my opinion. If you say "I don't care whether or not Vexing Devil is good, but here's a link to MtGTop8 where you can see how decks have placed using it," that has a completely different tone.
For my sentence "Likewise, out of all those decks with Vexing Devil that made top 8, how many of them didn't make top 8?," my bad. It should have read ""Likewise, out of all those decks with Vexing Devil that made top 8, how many decks with Vexing Devil didn't make top 8?" But this is just arguing over semantics.
You got tagged for other things because you addressed my posts besides Hazezon Tamar without tagging me. I'm the only one who brought up possibly using Figure of Destiny instead of Vexing Devil in this thread, who else would you be talking to?
May 27, 2014 7:32 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #46
sylvannos there was some back and forth in a few other comments before I looked up any statistics. 2 comments specifically.
I was not dismissing your question, I was dismissing this entire thread. I REALLY don't care about Vexing Devil 's playability, I simply wanted to be left out of it. I supplied some basic information and directions for others to find their answers and that's all I was here for.
I was never addressing you directly with the stats. I was addressing the group as a whole. When I have something for an individual I will tag them in 99% of cases.
May 27, 2014 7:43 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #47
It seems Ohthenoises was caught in some debate crossfire and that's unfortunate. In reply here though to sylvannos i believe you and i have been the most argumentative here So i will offer my rebuttal after I've gotten home and no longer have too use a smartphone as typing on this thing isn't very fun.
gnarlicide says... #2
Dude, if it was bad... Then it would cost 50 cents and gather dust in a box. Not no 8-10 bucks. Run it and piss everyone off.
May 25, 2014 8:15 p.m.