Black Mill: Sands of delirium vs altar of the brood
Modern Deck Help forum
Posted on Sept. 22, 2015, 9:21 a.m. by chatmort
Hi everyone,
I'm modifying my black discard deck to turn into a discard/mill and using Haunting Echoes to manaflood my opponent and win.
I'l looking for a nice way to mill, I thought about Grisly Spectacle but it's not worth it as a main mill. Now I'm wondering about arty that would help. I'm considering Altar of the Brood and/or Sands of Delirium.
N.B.: I use Wall of Bone for early defense and Archfiend of Depravity for board control later.
rothgar13 But Codex Shredder can only be used once per turn and mill 1 card on its own. I like more to use Despise,Abyssal Specter or Shimian Specter, sometimes Ravenous Rats. I have a playset of Geth's Grimoire if needed and some Duress and Coercion
September 22, 2015 11:41 a.m.
The Specters are all far too slow to be considered Modern-playable. Most aggro decks have emptied their hands by the time you'll be able to cast it, let alone deal combat damage (they also have weak bodies for their mana cost). As for Ravenous Rats, a blind discard effect plus a 1/1 body for 
is very weak, plus it exposes you to the blowout that is giving an opponent a free Loxodon Smiter/Obstinate Baloth/Wilt-Leaf Liege. I don't know what your playgroup is, but if you take that to any organized Modern tournament, I expect that you will struggle mightily.
I do recognize that some of the cards I mentioned are expensive, in which case I recommend the likes of Wrench Mind, Raven's Crime, Geth's Verdict, or even Smallpox (though you have to be careful how you use it) as alternatives. But the key here is that in order to bring your win condition to bear, you need to establish board control, and that only happens with lots of early disruption. Once you've got them in a lock, you can mill your opponent out with pretty much anything, and Codex Shredder happens to be cheap to cast and good in multiples.
Alternatively, have you looked at the 8-Rack deck? That's a mono- discard deck that doesn't use creatures. It's not super potent, but it's Modern-playable, and it might give you some ideas.
September 22, 2015 11:57 a.m. Edited.
I have a couple of Wrench Mind that I forgot to mention, as for Raven's Crime it's a reusable rat without a body to chump block and to reuse I must lose a land, no thanks. I agree that Codex Shredder is good in multiple but so it altar of the brood and I can have 1 Sands of Delirium on the board to achieve the same effect as 4 Codex Shredders, that is an advantage of 3 cards that can make my board presence even better.
Though I mostly agree with the specter part exept that Shimian Specter is great to destroy their late game threat or their finishing blow if they have it from the start. I can use that to completely undo their deck.
As for board control Archfiend of Depravity is a great way to obtain board control, + it's evasion and a Quietus Spike can speed up the kill by damage process since milling is my way to control my opponent and optimise my winning chances.
( Thanks for the replies up to now, they are helpful)
September 22, 2015 12:33 p.m.
To use the mill/discard, consider Sewer Nemesis, as it will really hurt the deck of the opponent over time, and grow at a steady pace. Smallpox could hinder your strategy, as it hurts you as well... use it with care.
Cheers.
September 22, 2015 12:42 p.m.
Shimian Specter also dies to most of the commonly used removal out there. If you're relying on it, you're setting yourself up to be disappointed, because unlike an aggro deck that is teeming with actual threats, your deck doesn't have many other cards that your opponent has to destroy in order to stop you, so all of the removal is earmarked for it. Archfiend of Depravity is more powerful because it passes the "Bolt test", but it's also slow (look around at Modern competitive decks - you can count the number of cards that cost 5+ mana and see regular play with your fingers, and most of them are in Tron) that it only takes one Gurmag Angler or Tarmogoyf (heck, a well-fed Scavenging Ooze) to put you under heavy pressure. You should gravitate toward win conditions that don't cost that much mana, because between establishing control of the board and trading resources, chances are you won't have that much mana to spare, and that applies to pretty much everyone (except Tron).
@Busse: Sewer Nemesis is not Modern legal. Nothing that's only been printed in Commander sets is.
September 22, 2015 12:44 p.m. Edited.
I'm leaning towards Painful Quandary as my win-con once I modify my deck. I'll add my Dash Hopes to this deck too as another control mechanism. Taking that into consideration, Sands might be out of question then. I'm now hesitating between the altar and the codex...
September 22, 2015 1:01 p.m.
Dash Hopes isn't a pure control effect, unfortunately. The choice it gives your opponent makes it problematic to use at times, because it needs to be combined with pressure on your opponent's life total in order for both choices to have teeth. I don't think your deck as currently built is capable of presenting a credible threat to your opponent's life total such that they would consider allowing their spell to be countered. If you want spell control, I'd add more targeted discard. If you want to catch dangerous creatures and put pressure on their life total, one option to consider is Desecration Demon. If you can keep the board clean, it's a very fast clock. If you can't, it will help you kill their creatures while growing even larger.
September 22, 2015 1:18 p.m.
Yes Desecration Demon is a pretty great option, too bad it's out of stock currently where I buy cards...
I considered Temporal Extortion too as a maybe card, half life for 4 mana or an extra turn is great in my book. But it's pretty costly( at least here in Canada, where everything costs more than in the US).
I know that Dash Hopes isn't pure control, but 5 life (usually 25%) for 2 mana or a counterspell, that's far better than manaleak in some cases.
September 22, 2015 1:34 p.m.
No, it's not. And the reason why is because if you're not dealing damage to them otherwise, that 5 life lost doesn't matter - they'll just shrug and take it, and proceed to use the spell that Dash Hopes was trying to counter to kill you. Giving your opponent the choice of what effect they suffer is a huge deal. It needs to be combined with life total pressure from your creatures or spells in order to be an effective counterspell, otherwise it's a conditional damage spell in a deck that isn't looking to win by direct damage. Temporal Extortion is simply a bad card - no one is ever going to give you an extra turn, so it's "cut their life total in half for ", which is overpriced. These are the types of cards that are popular among casual players, but completely absent from competitive scenes - and there's a reason for that. The reason is that you can't rely on them to give you value.
September 22, 2015 2:13 p.m. Edited.
MindAblaze says... #12
If you really want a 4 mana flyer, Guul Draz Specter is strong. It's still vulnerable to every removal spell other than Abrupt Decay in the format and pretty slow, but it ends the game much faster than Shimian Specter. I do like Shimian though, but it's not strong enough for modern.
There's also a reason Raven's Crime sees modern play and Ravenous Rats does not. I've been trying to make Rotting Rats work, but that's a different deck.
September 22, 2015 2:46 p.m.
rothgar13 I guess you're right, thanks for the heads up.and MindAblaze Thanks, I totally forgot about Guul Draz Specter! It's less about surgical removing and more about pressure, just what I needed!
rothgar13 says... #2
Codex Shredder is nice and cheap (plus it can have utility later), so that's one for you to consider. I do presume you have all the basics of a mono-
discard deck covered, yes? Because without the likes of Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, Ensnaring Bridge, and Liliana of the Veil, you will struggle mightily against aggressive decks or decks that have powerful topdecks (like Jund).
September 22, 2015 11:10 a.m.