Ugin on the banned list in modern
Modern forum
Posted on June 10, 2015, 1:46 p.m. by IndepenentMeta
So I was watching a team last night n I mentioned something bout Ugin getting the ban hammer for the modern format. Almost instantly I was attacked by flames that's said no why ban it blah blah blah. N I couldn't really discuss it or even share my stand points on the subject. So I decided I might as well bring this topic up with some of my peers here on tapped out. How would u guys feel about a Ugin ban in the modern format?
As UrbanAnathema pointed out, there are specific reasons why some cards are banned.
Some of those reasons include- unintended and entirely broken interaction that was unconsidered- it restricts future design- Warp to the format - it forces all players to either play a playset of that card or have a playset of cards to play against it
I do not really see ugin doing that. Modern is not all shifting to Ugin. Deck builders are not constantly asking themselves what to do against Ugin. Ugin sees moderate play in one deck that is not that amazing. It has no broken unilateral interactions.
Ugin is likely to stay unbanned for these reasons. If those who construct the banned list change thier criteria, then you might have a point.
Also please not, flavor has never and hopefully will never be a criterion for banning a card. Just because some player at a shop wants something banned and/or unbanned for flavor reasons has literally nothing to do with the official decisions.
Also please note that you have not actually developed a persuasive arguement for why Ugin does meet any of the criteria that are used for banning. This is critical in bringing ppl to your side. If you do not think there are ways to answer Ugin, I feel like you might need to research cards a bit more. I am sure that between myself and other users, we could name dozens of cards that get rid of ugin.
June 10, 2015 2:38 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #3
Banned in Modern? Highly unlikely. Now if we were talking commander, I would so be behind that.
June 10, 2015 2:38 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #4
He's not broken because he's 8 mana. Modern is a turn four format, and there's only one deck that gets out 8 mana consistently on turn four.
Also, does that mean Griselbrand should be banned? He lets you draw shit loads of cards! And he has lifelink!
But the thing is he's eight mana. It's hard to win with an Ugin if you're dead on turn four to burn. There are decks that don't give a shit about his field wipe. Again, burn. Burn doesn't give a rats ass whether you blow up their Goblin Guides turn 4. His plus, while good, is a Lightning Bolt for 8 mana. Bolt for one isn't banned, so bolt for eight shouldn't be.
Also, there are plenty of kill spells for planeswalkers. It's called attacking.
He's good, but he's only played in one deck as a 2-of (maybe three idk I don't run Tron) and he's not being thrown into every deck possible. Burn was splashing blue just for Treasure Cruise, but nobody is throwing Ugin into Abzan or Delver decks, so he's nowhere near format-warping, in my opinion.
June 10, 2015 2:40 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #5
Holy balls of jesus I got ninja'd by like twenty people
June 10, 2015 2:41 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #6
b287213 oh don't worry about what I'm playing. I might be playing twin or junk that don't matter to me. But I'm trying to make the format a bit better by getting rid of a broken card for the format.
And as far as going into why Karn is better than ugin would you mind explains how the guy on the finals used 3 of his Karns n cam was able to get all three of them off the board. But as soon as ugin was drop it closed the game?
June 10, 2015 2:45 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #8
Okay so lets ban Blood Moon by that logic. It hits the field and people just scoop.
I dont think you understand what "format-warping" means.
June 10, 2015 2:47 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #9
Your arguments ignore the most fundamental reason Ugin is not broken. CMC.
Yes, if Ugin was a 5 drop, he might be broken.
As it stands, he's inaccessible to any deck in the format that isn't heavily ramping. This is why it's not a broken card.
Someone won with a card so ban it? Not sure how that makes sense to anyone not you.
June 10, 2015 2:48 p.m.
I love how people argue over anything. Pointless obvious trolls will always trigger a storm on tappedout. Sheesh.
June 10, 2015 2:49 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #11
vishnarg People have opinions, and OP asked for everyones opinion on a banning of Ugin. get outta here with that shit man
June 10, 2015 2:52 p.m.
IndepenentMeta, the card just straight up isn't broken. It has an extremely high mana cost of 8, which tron and only tron is capable of achieving often enough to warrant a spot in their list. It's not even close to something like Treasure Cruise, where decks left and right were going "You know, my deck could use a splash of blue in order to use a single card." Or Birthing Pod, which would only get stronger the more sets were released. Ugin is a single late game threat, that only tron can achieve. No other deck in modern can feasibly run Ugin. And like I mentioned earlier, I have the most to game from Ugin being banned, believe me. But it straight up is not ban worthy in the slightest.
June 10, 2015 2:52 p.m.
Cobthecobbler What opinion is there to have? The answer is no, and that's it
June 10, 2015 2:53 p.m.
Argument number 1: Let's face it, if a planeswalker can't defend itself, it just generally sucks. You're wasting a turn to drop this powerful thing ruler of the magic universe, and then it just dies immediately to a few lame 1/1s. Being able to kill things makes it playable, not broken.
Your argument number 2: Dropping an Ugin does not close out a game. If you're in the position to be dropping and Ugin in standard or modern, you have already won the game, and that just means that Ugin is an alright win-con.
Argument number 3: There's one deck that'll just get completely blown out by Ugin, and that's B/W Tokens. But there are a lot more PLAYERS who can get blown out by Ugin. Don't over extend onto the boardstate. There's nothing that says you have to put every permanent card onto the battlefield. If they -4 and wipe your board immediately, than next turn, he'll have no answer to that Siege Rhino you strategically kept, and you'll be able to kill of Ugin in two turns and continue playing.
Or just hold up a counterspell. Nothing will crush your opponent more than when they cast an Ugin for 8 and you wipe it asied with a Mana Leak.
June 10, 2015 2:54 p.m.
Servo_Token says... #15
Being a good card does not justify a card being banned. There's a million good cards in modern. Ugin is one of them. Siege Rhino, Wurmcoil Engine, Cryptic Command, Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt. These are just good cards. They are not broken. They see play because they are good. Ugin is a good card. He has abilities that do things that make him good. He does not have abilities that make him too good. Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, Treasure Cruise. These cards are too good. Wizards of the coast are the only people that get to draw the line on when something moves from being good to too good.
Also, quit your self-gratifying prophetic world-revolves-around-me attitude, you arrogant ignorant fuck. No one on this site (aside from me in this one post) is out to get you. You don't need to post "Oh, we're all just attacking IM", "You guys always say "IM is an idiot", "Let's all go pick on IM again today". No one is doing this to you. No one is targeting you for an attack. You are putting yourself into these positions where people call you out because you come into a community like you own the place and complain to the admins anytime someone tries to correct you or otherwise tell you that your shit does in fact stink. I don't care how old you are in real life, you need to grow the fuck up if you're going to be a contributing part of this or any community. You act like a child. No one wants to deal with a child. That's why you see all the "Oh god, here we go again" posts in your threads. If you just learn to take people's criticisms as they come, maybe account for other people's opinions instead of sitting on your throne of "there's no way I can be wrong", you'll find that you will have a better time on this and every other site and / or community. You get what you give in this place. If you constantly feed us shit, as you do, you will get nothing but shit in return.
If an admin thinks that that was too much, I apologize, but I feel that that needed to get out of me in some form or another.
June 10, 2015 2:56 p.m. Edited.
IndepenentMeta says... #16
squire1 I thank you for actually posting up something I can read and more less understand. But the points I'm trying to make stand in numerical order from 1-3 not a whole lot of different reason like other cards from the past but prolly some good reason behind the arguement. I've watched plenty of modern games where it isn't closed by the 4th turn. Just be cause their are other factors such as board wipes and counter spells. So to some extend you can't really measure by those standards.
June 10, 2015 2:56 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #17
Yeah and? So no one here is arguing then, we're trying to show OP why it's not banworthy because he still insists that it is.
June 10, 2015 2:57 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #18
I've actually wanted Blood Moon off the modern format just simply because it's a horrible design as an anti meta card. Shuts down all your useable man n game. What fun is that?
June 10, 2015 2:58 p.m.
CharlesMandore says... #19
That's the the thing though, I don't think he's trolling. His ideas are just firmly rooted in his head. He's a passionate dude, which is kinda fun. I'm going to recognize his points as quasi-valid, but our main counterpoint is that his CMC is too high to be a Tier 1 threat.
June 10, 2015 2:58 p.m.
Serra_Sentinel says... #20
I'm sorry. I just can't. You sir, IndependentMeta are ignorant. While it's true that Ugin is a powerful Planeswalker, Karn obliterates board states, kills off lands, takes hands apart and restarts the game. Ugin is a Bolt on a stick and a permanent board wipe for sure but not broken like Karn can be. It's none of my business or concern what you play, but, if you could kindly unknot your sphincter from the pole you've had shoved up there and remove said pole, you'd make this site, and possibly the world, a little bit better.
June 10, 2015 2:59 p.m.
Modern being a turn 4 format does not mean that the game has to end by turn 4. There are decks that can win turn 4, so you have to be prepared to combat them. So people run hand disruption like Thoughtseize to slow down twin, or Kor Firewalker to slow down burn. Basically, modern being a turn 4 format means that you should have a pretty good idea of who will win by turn 4, not necessarily that you should already have won by turn 4.
June 10, 2015 3 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #22
No grielbrand should be banned because you can draw a lot of cards and it has life link. This thread is not about griselbrand and his sexiness. Or any other sexy card in the format it's about ugin and that's it
June 10, 2015 3 p.m.
Then it seems we are at an impasse. The community is telling you that they feel it is not broken for evidenced reasons.
You are telling the community that you feel it is broken for evidenced reasons.
At this point it is called a difference of opinion. Its like arguing whether the republicans or democrats are right.
There is no solution. Only to wait and see more evidence and if it is ever banned.
June 10, 2015 3:03 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #24
xzzane even by that statement its false. Like I said I've been watching scg's modern tournaments n even where people have had a badass board state I have seen players that were good enough to take that away.
June 10, 2015 3:03 p.m.
Why do you even care if IndependentMeta starts another troll thread?
June 10, 2015 3:05 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #27
squire1 agreed maybe I am being a bit I impulsive due to the fact that I've lost to him n I've seen other players loose to him. To me it's like playing a game of rock paper scissors n you have that one douche bag kid that always calls god. But eh I guess it's true we would have to see what happens In the next 3 events.
June 10, 2015 3:07 p.m.
Serra_Sentinel says... #28
Putrefy, because I'm bored and have nothing better to do honestly. IRL, it's been a kinda slow day and I was off today, soooo.
June 10, 2015 3:07 p.m.
Cobthecobbler says... #29
I don't think xzzane was false in his interpretation of what Modern being a turn 4 format means, I think he's fairly spot on.
June 10, 2015 3:08 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #30
Ugh let me ask one of my friends to make you a highlight video of the most epic magic come backs. I'm sorry I didn't mean to sound offsive
June 10, 2015 3:09 p.m.
PlattBonnay says... #31
Can we discuss cards that could realistically be banned? Ugin is an 8 cost planeswalker in a turn 4 format. There's no way he's going to be banned, in the same way that Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker hasn't been banned.
June 10, 2015 3:09 p.m.
Ugin would be banned if it was castable..... but it's not. There's literally one deck in all of modern that can get Ugin out and that deck folds/has a REALLY hard to/against Blood Moon, Fulminator Mage, Tectonic Edge, Ghost Quarter, Sowing Salt and a variety of other cards THAT ALL SEE WIDESPREAD PLAY. You would have a point if the deck that played ugin was unstoppable - but it's not. It's super, super easy to stop someone casting Ugin by just screwing up their manabase. On top of all of that its stopped by the humble Mana Leak.
June 10, 2015 3:09 p.m.
If you're on turn 8 in Modern and your opponent isn't dead yet, either you're playing control (in which case Thoughtseize or any counterspell ever should've solved your problem already), or your deck is having a real hard time doing anything. If that's the case, maybe your deck just sucks. But I don't want to sound rude, so let's just say you drew a bad hand, manascrew, whatever.
So, you get to turn 8, and your opponent drops an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Holy cow, Batman! You've just lost all your colored permanents! But wait- what if your opponent is dead BEFORE turn 8? That isn't even a hard thing to do; combo decks win on average turn 3 or 4 (twin on turn 5, of course), aggro and burn on turn 3 or 4, midrange on turn 5 or something, etc. I'm only saying this because you said in the comment above me, "can be splashed into every deck." Um...no, it cant. If you're playing Jund and decide to put an EIGHT MANA PLANESWALKER into your deck that exiles all of your stuff as well, then you're just plain stupid. The ONLY other deck that doesn't hurt THEMSELVES by using Ugin is Affinity, but I'm sure you can see that that is a terrible idea.
So, we get to the SINGLE deck that runs Ugin; Tron. Yes, Tron can cast him on turn 4 at the earliest and it can rekt the opponent, sure. But guess what? Sideboards exist. Use targeted discard. Counter it. Land destruction. Aven Mindcensor for crying out loud. And besides, Tron isn't even Tier 1, more like 1.5. I'm sure you're thinking "Well, Birthing Pod was banned, and it was only in one deck!!" That's because it was Tier 1 first of all, and then it was extremely consistent, had silver bullets for any deck ever, and could assemble an infinite combo with ease. THAT card is banworthy. Ugin is not.
Might as well ban every win condition ever. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn ends games, and he can come out even earlier than Ugin! Turn 2 or 3 at the earliest, compared to his 4.
Sorry for the long block of text, but Jesus man. Think with your head.
June 10, 2015 3:10 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #34
Slow down guys this is a lot of stuff to read lol
June 10, 2015 3:13 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #35
If you all really and truly believed that IM is a troll and that trolls shouldn't be fed, then none of you would actually post in his threads. The fact that you do reeks of hypocrisy of the highest order. I'd re-evaluate your motivations for telling him to "get the pole out of [his] sphincter"or the like before you post them.
June 10, 2015 3:13 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #36
Look, I think IndepenentMeta is a Yu-Gi-Oh player that has a VERY limited understanding of the game of Magic and is obviously trying WAY too hard to act as if he knows WTF he is talking about when it comes to competitive play.
We've all been here with him a million times by now. The act has grown stale.
June 10, 2015 3:15 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #37
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker to me is no where near as good as ugin...
June 10, 2015 3:15 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #38
Then why not drop the act? Why perpetuate a state of being that no one (besides the "troll feeders") want to stay around? You're being part of the problem by posting still, and I respect that I am as well. I would just like for a voice of reason to actually prevail for once. I don't even care if it's mine or not.
June 10, 2015 3:17 p.m.
UrbanAnathema says... #39
Which is funny...because his + ability actually kills Ugin. LOL
June 10, 2015 3:17 p.m.
Nicol Bolas isn't as good? You complain about +2 Lightning Bolt being too good, but +3 Vindicate (well, a little worse) is just fine? T_T
June 10, 2015 3:19 p.m.
IM, People who are only doing the last 5 things of your list can be ignored... unless it pertains to their argument.
Those who have stated "You don't seem to be aware of Wizards reasons for banning cards", are correct. - Though it may come across as "You don't know anything", that is not the intent. They really would like you to look up the reasons for banning cards, because your arguments for banning Ugin do not apply.
There is a long list of cards which essentially win games when they successfully hit the battlefield... Karn Liberated, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Splintertwin, Griselbrand and more... none of which are banned.
- Like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon they are all situational. They are hard to get out, easy to disrupt, or easy to play around.
- Each has some good match-ups and some bad match-ups.
The arguments you are making can be made for many cards, especially planes walkers.
Liliana of the Veil for example:
She is hand disruption.
She is removal, even for hexproof creatures.
She can wipe half an opponent's board, including Land.
PLUS... She is a 3-drop, and easily played as early as T3.
All of that said she, like Ugin, is not detrimental to the playing of the game in Modern.
- Ugin is not an 'auto-include' like Mental Misstep or Treasure Cruise.
- Ugin does not enable a reliable T1 or T2 win, like Blazing Shoal in an infect deck.
- Ugin does not enable powerful/unstoppable combos like Skullclamp does.
Ugin is not a powerful card that is as good on T1 as it is on T7, like Deathrite Shaman.
Ugin does not cause an early unstoppable state like Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull. - This is the argument, I believe, you are trying to make.
While true, once he hits the battlefield, it can take over a game, this is not reliable and/or not early... it will either be turn 6+, or relies on the Urza lands in Tron decks. - This is a well known deck with a number of flaws in it's strategies. - To beat Ugin, you simply have to 1) disrupt the hand, 2) disrupt the mana base, or 3) out race the deck. - Most decks in Modern can do this, or have a sideboard strategy for this.
June 10, 2015 3:19 p.m. Edited.
UrbanAnathema says... #42
canterlotguardian I actually have refrained from commenting on IM's threads in the past for just this reason. I'm not actually pursuing the debate anymore, as it is indeed pointless.
June 10, 2015 3:20 p.m.
vishnarg - If IndepenentMeta causes a Storm when he posts, what's the Storm count of this thread?
As to IndepenentMeta, Ugin shouldn't be banned because he is played in one deck which happens to be good right now. But as far as cards people want banned, he's far behind cards like Splinter Twin.
June 10, 2015 3:22 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #45
UrbanAnathema lol wen r ignorant magic players gonna understand that there's is very little to none differences between magic in yugioh? They have counter spells creatures board wipes kill spells all the same aspects of the game but you guys act as if thou there no where near the same. While you guys were talking bout how bad I am I managed to top at a few events on magic versus players who have the same mentally as you guys. Oh he plays yugioh he can't play magic then. Surprise I'm your oppoenent n your nervous because you heard bout how I beat your partner that beats you.... Yus dude I have down that n for that you magic players get this Profaner of the Dead
June 10, 2015 3:24 p.m.
JakeHarlow says... #46
If IndependentMeta wanted to be taken seriously, the quality of his posts wouldn't take on these outrageous, surreal overtones. He is trying to stir up reactions. Even if he's not a troll, he immensely enjoys the attention his antics earn him.
Just ignore him. The more people who do so, the less inclined he'll be to pollute the forums with nonsensical posts.
June 10, 2015 3:24 p.m.
Could you use some punctuation please? Not trying to be a Grammar Nazi, but I can barely understand your argument.
June 10, 2015 3:26 p.m.
To IM, I mean. I hate when people comment before you finish typing it in :/
June 10, 2015 3:27 p.m.
IndepenentMeta says... #49
UrbanAnathema Which is funny because I haven't seen nico on the top 8 tables for the past 5 years
June 10, 2015 3:28 p.m.
JDMCRIB, IM's grammar has long been a point of consternation to the community here. Believe it or not, he's actually gotten a lot better.
IndepenentMeta says... #1
Ok let me write this down for you guys
My arguements
It's a kill spell and increases loyalty
Even in the standard format once it's dropped it closes games
It has a minus trigger that can get rid of most low cmc permanents. Which is basically what the modern format prides it's self in
Then theirs the players who at least try to put their logic into it.
It's a two of card in order for a card to be broken in modern you need a play set
It's not wide spread. It can't be splashed into every deck in the modern format. So it's not broken.
Those ain't bad arguements but then theirs you all
Mr I know everything bout magic
Your retarded IM
Omg this post IM
Is IM trolling
Dear god IM
You don't know anything IM
n that's the logic that wins the arguements 100% of the time
June 10, 2015 2:37 p.m.