I would double check on the way the persist trigger and mazirek triggers stack. Because the combo gets significantly worse if mazirek resolves before the persist trigger resolves

michael921 - As the active player, you are allowed to stack the triggers how you wish since they would occur at the same time.

evncrbch, thank you for clearing that up!

Can you explain the Persist combo a little better? I am still not super clear on how the stack would go. My thinking is that the creature would leave play when the +1 counters are applied, so it would still come back with -1 on it. I'm new to this though, so would probably benefit from hearing the order of things.

mattpowers - Both triggers occur when the creature dies. Because you are the active player, you get to choose how the triggers go on the stack. If you choose to have the Mazirek trigger go on first, then the Persist trigger, the persist trigger resolves first, placing a -1/-1 counter on the persist creature. Then the Mazirek trigger will resolve, putting a +1/+1 counter on the persist creature, cancelling the -1/-1 counter.

As for creatures that generate tokens, you could try Skeletal Vampire. He is also a sacrifice outlet. Sacrifice a 1/1 bat, get two 2/2 bats and pump your board. Sure that effect has a cost, but if you really need it you can also just sacrifice the bats to regenerate him for no cost.

@mattpowers

This question has been answered a few times already, however I will answer it here in hopes that it explains it to everyone in detail. Please keep in mind that this answer will be long and drawn out in hopes that it answers all aspects of the question.

The second that one of our creatures is sacrificed, the triggered ability from Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest is on the stack. It doesn't matter if you cast lightning bolt on Mazirek, or even Sudden Shock which is split second - his ability has already occurred. The ruling below explain why this is the case:

701.14a To sacrifice a permanent, its controller moves it from the battlefield directly to its owners graveyard.[...]

Off the top of my head, I can't think of ANY way to truly respond to paying the sacrifice cost on a permanent, as doing so immediately places it in your graveyard. (Edit: A player could cast Stifle on Mazirek to counter his ability, however this is a completely different scenario)

In regards to persist, the rulings are as followed:

702.78a Persist is a triggered ability. Persist means When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owners control with a -1/-1 counter on it.

As sacrificing a permanent INSTANTLY places it in our graveyard, the creature checks to see if it qualifies for the persist ability. If it had no -1/-1 counter, it comes back into play. Keep in mind that this is still on top of the stack before Mazirek's had a chance to put any counters on creatures in play. If the creature with persist has an ability upon death (Such as Woodfall Primus), this will be placed on the stack before Mazirek has a chance to put counters on any creature.

The creature with persist will come back to play from the graveyard. All other abilities or spells on the stack will then resolve in the order they were casted until Mazirek is able to put a +1/+1 counter on all creatures, including the creature with persist.

Keep in mind that if a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it. As the creature had a -1/-1 counter, it effectively removes it as Mazirek's ability resolves.

Once all abilities and spells have been resolved, you will be left with your originally sacrificed creature with persist, with no counters on it. As long as your opponents have no (good) response, you can repeat this action indefinitely with any persist creature of your choosing.

I think Master of the Wild Hunt or Creakwood Liege would be good additions over overlord and the imp. Plus the wolves have a kill condition.

My bad - Woodfall Primus is a ETB. His ability triggers on re-entry to battlefield, not entry of graveyard.

IpCrash3r, have you already looked at Shamanic Revelation for card draw? I freakin' love that card!

@clayperce

I cant speak for Ipcrash3r, but when I play this deck (I just built it), I actually never have that many creatures. Maybe it is just my playgroup/style, but (although I generate a significant amount) I always sac them before I reach a half-dozen.

I would run Greater Good for card draw since it duplicates as a sacrifice outlet.

@clayperce

I looked at that card, and cards similar to it. As TheSquirrelLord mentioned earlier, tokens are easy come and easy go. The only time my board will have more then 3-4 is when I am planning on killing someone with lethal damage the next turn. Tokens are to be used as tools to help us survive, ramp, or kill as needed - not to sit on the board doing nothing.

@evncrbch

Greater Good runs into the same issue that Shamanic Revelation does. If my tokens are big enough to actually draw me cards, I don't need the draw. I do have 18 creatures in the deck that would suffice as sac fodder to it, however most of these creatures are game ending type cards that I typically want to keep.

I may play around with Momentous Fall, which has been recommended in the past. It might work half OK.

Yeah, TheSquirrelLord and IpCrash3r, if you've got 3-4 dudes on the table max, Shamanic Revelation is no good ... strictly worse than Harmonize at 3 and on par at 4.

I see Necropotence on your maybeboard; it's pretty awesome but I hate having to exile the discards. Maybe Yawgmoth's Bargain instead?

For one-time effects, maybe a Read the Bones? Other potentials (sorry if you already looked at these): Night's Whisper; Sign in Blood; Ambition's Cost; and Promise of Power.

I like Memory Jar too, and sometimes Mind's Eye (though it always surprises me how much hate it draws in my group).

I hear Ancestral Recall is pretty good too ;-)

@clayperce

Unfortunately Yawgmoth's Bargain is on the commander banlist, or I would be using that in every black deck I have.

I have been playtesting with Promise of Power and Mind's Eye. Promise of Power is great, but I am still having issues with lifegain/loss in the deck. I find that the deck kills itself super freaking fast. I still need to try playtesting with the Whip of Erebos, but haven't had a chance yet. Mind's Eye has worked decently as well, and is one of my favorite cards for draw, but seems to be too slow in the deck, as I was trying to aim for a possible kill by turn 6-8 on average in the deck. (However it's amazing for long-term card draw)

Oh yeah, on the Bargain! Derp = me.

I'm out of ideas then. Except for bribing a blue mage to target you with a draw spell ... maybe offer to kill him or her last?

The problem with one-shot spells is that they are (as expected), one-shot.

The cards that shine most when I play this deck are sac outlets that can be activated at any time, free of charge.

Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar and (I play)Viscera Seer, all of which allow me to sac dudes in response to anything, and can not be easily shut down or responded to effectively (Looking at YOU, Stifle).

Also, in a game where card advantage is everything, effects that stick around until dealt with are gold.

Yea, I'm wanting to throw Viscera Seer back in as it is a sac engine that I can cheaply target with Chord of Calling. I played a game the other day and was 2 mana short from pulling off a same-turn win because my sac engine creature cost too much.

I'm also debating taking out Ulamog for Karn or Ugin. With no lands on the field, both of these planeswalkers can win the game by themselves. Though, Ulamog's shuffle has saved my ass plenty.... Ugh, decisions.

Yep, I thinks that so much also.I carry around 20+ cards, constantly swapping out to see what feels best. Call me a fanatic, but I also keep a notebook on hand, to jot down good plays, combos, and other stuff relevant to a certain card.

Later I can review it, categorize by card, and decide the weakest-next onto the chopping block.

I would recommend replacing your Ranger's Path with Hunting Wilds its linearly better in that it does the same thing for the same cost at the same speed but offers a possible late game use incase you draw it down the line.

Also the addition of Fallen Ideal as a realativly safe sac engine.

Have you considered Zuran Orb as a sac/life gain outlet?

Perhaps the addition of Crypt of Agadeem to your lands given the high volume of black creature that you run.

@AKBZ the gain of two life is not really enough for the downside of a loss of a land.

I would much prefer Sylvan Safekeeper as a way to protect any big tanks we happen to make (generally, the commander).

@ArchFline as IpCrash3r has said many times, graveyard hate is much too rampant in most Commander Metas to rely on your graveyard as a resource.

In most of my matches, graveyards never get in excess of a half-dozen cards. Heck, even I kill my own graveyard (and my opponents'), with Necrogenesis.

This is also the reason why I do not play Lord of Extinction, and other graveyard stuff.

Also remember that, though we sac a lot of creatures, most are tokens, and thus can never be counted as in a graveyard.

@ArchFline

Ranger's Path puts lands into play untapped, which is primarily why it's in there. I never really knew how good ramp that brought lands into play untapped was. (EG. Turn 1, Mana Crypt, Play Forest, Play Cultivate. Turn 2, Tap Crypt and two forests, put a Overgrown Tomb and Bayout into play untapped. Play the forest for the turn, cast Kodama's Reach. Watch opponents ragequit since you have 6 lands into play on turn 2)

However, I do like the creature aspect of Hunting Wilds. It gives me a board full of unexpected creatures that I can pump with Mazirek to swing for a kill out of nowhere. The only issue is it costs 8 mana, which could potentially tap me out for the turn. Also, if someone fogs or I am unable to kill everyone the same turn, I can guarantee you my playgroup will tutor for a board wipe JUST to wipe my lands out of spite. It's sorta a thing we do... I'll playtest it and get back to you on it though, looks like it has potential!

In regards to Crypt of Agadeem, it used to be in the deck. 9 times out of 10 i had no use with it, as my graveyard had no black creatures in it. Since you need at least 4 to make it worthwhile, I took it out. (We only have 12ish black creatures in the deck, so having 4 in our graveyards is pretty darn difficult)

@AKBZ

The Orb looks hilariously awesome! I never even knew about this card. It's a sacrifice outlet that gains us life, and works well with Titania. The only issue I have with it is that it is an "Ace in the hole" type of card. If I sac all my lands to kill someone, and somehow I fail - I'm pretty much screwed for the rest of the game. I'll look into it and see how it does though.

@TheSquirrelLord

This guy gets it :P

In my group, we all have at least 2 reanimator decks each. Hell, even our artifact decks reanimate. The fact that I'm only running Necrogenesis and not Leyline of the Void and Relic of Progenitus shows that I'm confident that I won't be worried about creature based decks. (Unless they get me in a Yosei lock)