"fair" win conditions in casual playgroups
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on April 13, 2020, 5:27 a.m. by ShutUpMokuba
Hello everyone,
I've tried not to but i could't help resisting to build an Urza, Lord High Artificier edh deck. In my playgroup decks are usually casual and between focused and optimized level. The deck i've had in mind had two or three infinite mana combos to win through Classic payoffs such asLaboratory Maniac/jace,wielder of mistieries. Since Urza is pretty much overpowered on its own as commander and my intention is not to ruin games for everyone i confronted myself on the list i've been working on with some friends in order to take into account their opinion and to avoid spoiling their game experience. Turns out that, of course, people has mixed opinions. Many were against the idea of a combo that instantly kills everyone/wins you the game since we usually don't do that. Others were fine with that while the main problem was to avoid the oppressive stax cards like Winter Orb, [static orb]], Back to Basics. Others were fine with both as long as i didn't run many tutors in order to slow down the deck and allow everyone to have their time to build up their game.
I had a similar discussion with my Yawgmoth, Thran Physician deck when i suggested that i could run Contamination which would be problematic for most of them and i decided not to add that card in my wishlist. That deck also runs potential infinite combos but we decided that since they don't get online often they were fine. Also i could get value from them even without going infinite but, even if i could, using them a limited number of times. It's True that i could do the same for urza, for example self mill could become a " i draw like 10 cards" instead of my entire library. However i'm not sure if this makes sense because at that point i would still run into a potential win condition and win all the same.
Another idea i had in mind was to reduce the number of tutors, ramp and overall utility cards to slow down the deck. My fear is that at that point the deck wouldn't work well at all and i would be the one not having fun.
So what do you reccomend to adjust to your playgroup style and power level? Do You change your strategy or do you prefer change the optimization of the deck? Any suggestion is well accepted.
I play in a wide variety of pods, from jank / pauper / beginners, to experienced players piloting 70-85% powered decks, and I find that infinite combos are MUCH more accepted than stax or taxes -- if that infinite combo wins you the game on that turn or the following. My playgroup plays to have fun games, but also is competitive. It should be said that communication and honestly play a big role in making the enjoyment high, the social contract is definitely important.
When you and your group have a couple hours to sit at the table and play, assembling a win-the-game combo to close up a game and get us to the next one is appreciated (especially for the unfortunate players that got mana flooded / screwed and couldn't really do anything), and maybe lets you play a few more games than if you all let the silliness play out.
Stax or taxes decks on the other hand, can slow down the game to a crawl, and many brewers may forget to include a win-con, so you're all just sitting there twiddling your thumbs as the Grand Arbiter Augustin IV player plays draw-go. In 3 hours you'll play one game, or you'll all just decide to concede, and it's lame (imho).
When I play strategies that are "in bad taste" for non-cEDH groups (taxes, mass land destruction, stax, draw-go, etc), I make sure to really only use it as a means to win quickly. As an example, I brewed a MLD Darigaaz Reincarnated deck, that would ramp hard to play Darigaaz, then windmill-slap a Jokulhaups or Worldslayer, nuking everything, except my 7/7 flampler would come back swinging in a couple turns.
In that scenario, although many turns would go by before Darigaaz starts mercing players, the turns only last a few seconds as they draw their card, can't play it and pass. Don't impliment a stax / MLD strategy unless you can win quickly off of it.
April 13, 2020 10:12 a.m.
ZendikariWol says... #4
So there's this new feature on Tappedout that shows you when you've been ninja'd. Gotta say, KeilFX took a bit of my comment but... less than I thought. He got much of the what out of the way, but the why I will elaborate on.
Imagine you sit down to play magic with your tuned, I dunno, Roon of the Hidden Realm deck. Your buddy resolves Contamination. BAM. Now all your mana is colorless. What are your answers to this? Blast Zone, ... Nevinyrral's Disk?? Find some card that flickers nonland permanents? Not sure that even exists.
So now you're stuck playing "draw-pass" for the rest of the game until someone finally blows that fucking Contamination up- which they never will bc there is no effective enchantment removal in Black. Meteor Golem and Karn Liberated?? Yeah, sure, those'll show up at the table. Even if somebody is running them, they cost SEVEN MANA! So for YOUR ENTIRE GAME, you get to say "Draw." "Land for turn" or "Discard." "Pass turn." Sounds riveting.
April 13, 2020 10:50 a.m.
Haha, sorry about that ZendikariWol :P
Indeed, 99% of Roon decks would be totally boned by a Contamination resolving (who the heck runs Unstable Obelisk? And I don't think Roon runs enough mana rocks to compensate for their lands not producing colours).
Having said that, if the Contamination player is using it to buy a turn or two to combo off an win without fear of a counterspell / boardwipe, then I'd be less salty. Basically if I saw Contamination on the stack, I'd ask that player "yo are you gonna win the game in 2-3 turns?", and if they say yes, I'd get excited for the next game, and not be upset that I've been duped.
Control and resource denial is a fundamental part of M:tG, and if an entire subset of 100% legal cards is considered "too mean" from the get-go with no consideration for circumstances, then it'd be kinda lame. Please yuse your spicey cards wisely, and please reframe from bringing a game to a standstill (unless it's for Divine Intervention, then please do so!)
April 13, 2020 11:57 a.m.
IMO it's all about consistency. I personally build so that my "wincon" is a large pool of cards that advance me to the win...or to other players losing (that's another discussion though :) ) However, I just make sure I place little temptation & consistency into the deck. That way I am not playing "Groundhogs Day" Magic. I feel like in my large playgroup "Groundhogs Day" level consistency is the greatest offender possible, though the group usually doesn't get too whipped up about much we are just able to recognize when a win didn't feel that satisfying or when it has become hackneyed. I have removed a whole lot of 2-part wincons in favor for randomized high-impact 1-off plays. I used to Insidious Dreams into one wincon or another with Bolas's Citadel then I started have a crisis of the boring high consistency win & why not just citadel into the classic combos? So, I just removed the temptation and replaced with single splash plays instead. Its all about perception though, I get told I need a wincon... Except I win plenty playing decks that have high variability, but are accordingly balanced to handle disruption.... So I guess, you just do you :)
April 13, 2020 9:39 p.m.
Poly_raptor says... #7
I was the same, my friends play very casual decks and I’m definitely outlined as the combo player anyway. I was given an Urza for my birthday. I said I was thinking about just putting him in a deck and my friends said, “no you need to build an Urza deck with Urza”, so I did, with infinite mana combos and all, and told them what it was like and they were fine with it, they just target me a bit more when I use it because they know it can win out of nowhere.
I would suggest just talking to them about it. My friends are happy to play against mine, because it’s fun for me, and then after we play a different game and I won’t use it.
A good “fun card” I used was Masterful Replication and turned all the artifacts into copies of the Construct token
April 14, 2020 3:59 a.m.
triproberts12 says... #8
My advice is to put a deck-building constraint on yourself. Doesn't really matter what it is, as long as you feel like you can optimize the deck within that constraint without it becoming unfun to play against. It's also more fun to play with and against a "____ Urza deck," instead of the stock list.
April 14, 2020 6:17 p.m.
triproberts12 Hehe, yeah my friends got an "artifactless Urza" list, where it doesn't run any cards with the artifact supertype, instead running cards that either generate artifacts like Mirrodin Besieged or otherwise play well with Urza, like Thassa, Deep-Dwelling.
No Unwinding Clock, no Winter Orb, but it's still really strong.
April 15, 2020 8:30 a.m.
dingusdingo says... #10
To make fun casual decks
- Win from combat or damage
- Include winning cards that give time to your opponents, like Felidar Sovereign which gives them a full rotation to deal with the card.
- Winning on turn 10 or later
To make higher power decks
- Establish board presence and squeeze opponents out then combat damage
- Include combo cards that can win immediately
- Threaten oppressive board state or winning combo around turn 6 or 7
To make competitive decks
- Create a toxic lockout board state if you wish to win via combat damage
- Include efficient two card combos, preferably with protection available
- Aim to lock the board or land winning combo on turn 3 or 4.
The greatest metric is on what turn you can reliably win with your deck. These are also helpful because they tell you by what turn your deck should have interaction available for an opponent's combo
As far as cards like Contamination, its just like Armageddon or Blood Moon or Wrath of God. Wipes and permanent lock out type cards DO exist and will see play. You can take reasonable steps to improve your deck while mitigating the impact of these cards by diversifying permanent types. The full suite of Talismans and Signets is inexpensive to purchase, and provides protection against land hate while also accelerating and color fixing, I would run these in a 3 color casual deck even without an opponent having a Contamination. You can also diversify into creature based mana like the Elves.
April 15, 2020 4:30 p.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #11
thanks everybody for your advices, you all have been really helpful
ShutUpMokuba says... #2
TypicalTimmy that is a good suggestion. That surely helps a lot and i like a lot the idea of the compromise between keeping all the cards i like and letting everyone having fun. My issue is that cards like Contamination or Static Orb are difficult to deal with, especially in a causual environment. I can leave them remove the card as soon as an opponent could even if i had an answer but the problem would still be there. Also i don't know how do you handle infinite combo wins in your playgroup. For example in one of my lgs in the non competitive table you cannot pull off an infinite combo win before an hour has passed.
April 13, 2020 5:50 a.m.